Anglican leaders prepare new drive to approve women bishops

[GKC]

I haven’t read this whole thread - but in answer to the original post, I don’t understand why the Anglican Church hasn’t already done it. Not only do other churches in the Communion do it already, but it just seems an odd line to draw in the sand between female priests and female bishops. The only arguments against female bishops I’ve ever heard apply to priestesses as well. And both seem equally at odds with ecumenical dialogue with either Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

The issue in the Church of England is that when they began to lay hands on hairspray and put females into priestly vestments, back when, provision was made for parishes to opt out of having to receive such “clerics”, to provide for their spiritual needs, and special “flying bishops” were appointed to minister to such parishes. In other words, a conscience clause was included, for those who understood the concept of a valid sacrament (orders). But the concept of a female bishop is more complicated. One can refuse to accept from the hands of what one considered an invalid priestess. But invalid female bishops, who go about their episcopal duties, including ordaining priests, will eventually render the whole concept of valid orders in the Church of England in doubt.

Yes, I’m not only familiar with Apostolicae Curae, I’m overly familiar with it. That is not the point.

GKC

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Take the theology out of it for a moment and think of it in terms of a business model.

The organizations which have taken on this practice have devastated the institution. It has for all intents and purposes caused their downfall. Whether ECUSA (TEC), PCUSA, ELCA or UMC -similar results.

While the church is not a business enterprise, Jesus speaks frequently about stewardship of that which has been placed under the charge of the caretaker.

I guess the question is “why would anyone consider a move which have proven so harmful to all who have implemented it?”

 

[steido01]

Take the theology out of it for a moment and think of it in terms of a business model.

The organizations which have taken on this practice have devastated the institution. It has for all intents and purposes caused their downfall. Whether ECUSA (TEC), PCUSA, ELCA or UMC -similar results.

While the church is not a business enterprise, Jesus speaks frequently about stewardship of that which has been placed under the charge of the caretaker.

I guess the question is “why would anyone consider a move which have proven so harmful to all who have implemented it?”

That’s an interesting way of looking at the situation, although I’m not sure how comfortable I am with ‘taking the theology out of it,’ even just to amplify a metaphor… isn’t that how each of those churches got to this point in the first place?

To your final question – Bingo! The ‘slippery slope’ has proven to be quite devastating to each of those communions.

 

[jwinch2]

And yet Metropolitan Timothy Ware in the Orthodox Church speaks of a time when Orthodoxy had women deacons and suggest that they might be brought back.

Deaconesses in the ancient Church were not the same as ordained deacons today. There was a long, and quite informative thread a few months back where a good deal of historical material was presented when this topic came up. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=705242&highlight=deaconess

 

[Picky_Picky]

The issue in the Church of England is that when they began to lay hands on hairspray and put females into priestly vestments, back when, provision was made for parishes to opt out of having to receive such “clerics”, to provide for their spiritual needs, and special “flying bishops” were appointed to minister to such parishes. In other words, a conscience clause was included, for those who understood the concept of a valid sacrament (orders). But the concept of a female bishop is more complicated. One can refuse to accept from the hands of what one considered an invalid priestess. But invalid female bishops, who go about their episcopal duties, including ordaining priests, will eventually render the whole concept of valid orders in the Church of England in doubt.

Yes, I’m not only familiar with Apostolicae Curae, I’m overly familiar with it. That is not the point.

GKC

Yes, I am not going to dissent from GKC’s expertise, although neither will I use “hairspray”-type tropes, but while I think his point is true there is a further one. The Church of England has decided that it believes women may be consecrated bishops. The difficulty is how to ensure the position of those who believe this invalid, but regard themselves still as loyal members of the Church of England. In the United States, of course, such difficulties, in a religious free market culture, lead to schism. In the CofE, a national church, painful attempts are made to provide a space for different viewpoints. And while it is possible to provide such a space without too much difficulty in the matter of priests, who may be prepared to regard female priests as not valid but still valued colleagues, bishops have by their nature authority, and submitting to the authority of a bishop one regards as not a bishop at all is problematic. Finding a way to achieve women bishops, which the church is decided on, while providing a safe place for conservative evangelicals and traditionalist anglo-catholics, is what the CofE is still valiantly attempting.

 

[GKC]

Yes, I am not going to dissent from GKC’s expertise, although neither will I use “hairspray”-type tropes, but while I think his point is true there is a further one. The Church of England has decided that it believes women may be consecrated bishops. The difficulty is how to ensure the position of those who believe this invalid, but regard themselves still as loyal members of the Church of England. In the United States, of course, such difficulties, in a religious free market culture, lead to schism. In the CofE, a national church, painful attempts are made to provide a space for different viewpoints. And while it is possible to provide such a space without too much difficulty in the matter of priests, who may be prepared to regard female priests as not valid but still valued colleagues, bishops have by their nature authority, and submitting to the authority of a bishop one regards as not a bishop at all is problematic. Finding a way to achieve women bishops, which the church is decided on, while providing a safe place for conservative evangelicals and traditionalist anglo-catholics, is what the CofE is still valiantly attempting.

You have it exactly. I suspect you are closer to it than I. That position was recognized, as to authority, by the Flying Bishops and their alternate episcopal oversight, in the original dispensation. A situation that now may or may not be provided for, in some or any sense, as the Anglo-Catholics/orthodox evangelicals, of traditional inclination are further marginalized, to the point of extinction. If I did not make that clear, shame on me. So it is.

GKC

 

[Picky_Picky]

You have it exactly. I suspect you are closer to it than I. That position was recognized, as to authority, by the Flying Bishops and their alternate episcopal oversight, in the original dispensation. A situation that now may or may not be provided for, in some or any sense, as the Anglo-Catholics/orthodox evangelicals, of traditional inclination are further marginalized, to the point of extinction. If I did not make that clear, shame on me. So it is.

GKC

Closer geographically, perhaps. And being English, in the fortunate position of having a church whether I want one or not! And something of an admirer of the CoE even though not a believer. Perhaps their constant struggle to find communion and common ground is very English, or at least if it isn’t I wish it were. I understand also, of course, how that can look like weakness or vacillation to those of a sterner attitude to belief.

 

[GKC]

Closer geographically, perhaps. And being English, in the fortunate position of having a church whether I want one or not! And something of an admirer of the CoE even though not a believer. Perhaps their constant struggle to find communion and common ground is very English, or at least if it isn’t I wish it were. I understand also, of course, how that can look like weakness or vacillation to those of a sterner attitude to belief.

I had geographical propinquity in mind.

I have a nostalgic fondness for bits and pieces of the CoE, myself.

GKC

 

[SteveVH]

No question that the Roman Catholic Church provides charitable services beyond any other religious group, I think.

Absolutes, however can be confining in a world seeking God not condemnation.

So please tell me where the Catholic Church is lacking in compassion?

 

[Memaw]

Mmm! I love it when they use the pizza analogy, though it makes me hungry.

The fact is that there are - and this might be a shock - other churches that do not follow your particular Church’s teaching on whether or not having been born with a female reproductive system is an automatic disqualifier to serving as clergy. You may believe that these other churches have no valid priesthood or valid episcopate, but that’s simply your belief and your Church’s belief. To me, a Protestant, that claim is nothing more than religious jingoism.

Women are priests, bishops, deacons, and called to all levels of ministry in other churches. This has been a point of contention in dialogue between, for example, the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholics are apt to say, “If you ordain women bishops, say goodbye to any hope of Communion with us!” I’m quite eager to see the day when the Anglicans respond with, “If you don’t start ordaining women, you can say goodbye to any hope of Communion with us.”

It would be lovely for all Christians to march under the same banner, in the same church. Alas, I don’t ever forsee that day happening. There will always be those who refuse to swear any allegiance, spiritual or otherwise, to Rome. Count me as one of them. I don’t believe it truly matters if we’re ever in Communion with the Catholics. You guys do your thing, we’ll do our thing, and let’s adopt the “bar talk” agreement where we leave politics and religion out of our discussions with one another. We’ll be happy and get along nicely.

If you really mean that, then what are you doing on these forums? After all this is a Catholic Answers Forum. Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen once said, “The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it and a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it.” God Bless, Memaw

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by Casey123
Well, all due respect, women are priests and bishops in many churches, just not in yours. This is true. Your liking it, or lack thereof, does not change a thing.

Exactly! And you liking it and supporting it does not change the fact it is still invalid. And guess what? Does not a change a thing-all invalid! They still are not valid-ordained priests/bishops. It would be no different than an enlisted military personnel wearing their uniforms and claiming they are military officers. Guess what? Does not chang a thing…not valid commissioned officers.

 

[Nicea325]

No, it’s not. We’re all God’s children, no exceptions, and when God calls you to serve, whether you’re gay or straight, man or woman, you answer.

Of course I do.

I’ll leave you with this, “I know there are some people who cannot understand why women are allowed to become priests. People who are worried that soon there will be pantyhose drying on the vestry radiator and that ‘hymns’ will have to be called ‘hers’. But you know, they shouldn’t worry; because why they’re worrying about these little things, they’re forgetting to worry about the big things - like how much you help those who need help and how much you love people and show your love to them.”

Isn’t? Really? So Steve and Bob getting married is accepted as morally correct by God or does your church set the standards of morality depending on the direction of the current wind draft? Gay is the “in-thing” so let us cater to them? Is that how it woks in your church? Smells like relativism to me.

Yes it is! You compromise the Truth in order to saitisfy a few dissenters. And why? Because you conform to secularism and relativism. no matter how hard it is for you to swallow.

 

[Nicea325]

Casey123:

Right, so because other scientists have come to a conclusion you disagree with, that means that it’s “propaganda”.

It is conclusive without a shred of doubt?

Right. Can I hazard a guess and wager that your scientific conclusion that these reports are “poppycock” also happen to neatly fall in line with your church’s teachings and your own personal beliefs too, right?

I’ve got news for you in case you do not know history. The Catholic/Orthodox Churches do fall under the umbrella of Protestanism (all man-made sects). God is the HEAD and founder of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches. God SET the teachings…not finite creatures who distort the Truth to cater to worldly issues such as homosexuality. Big difference.

I stand by the evidence offered, I also stand by my own knowledge and experience on what it’s like to grow up as a gay individual.

Yep! Well you can stick to your evidence,but I rather much believe an infinite God who offers no opinions.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

This is only inevitable, in much the same way I suspect one will not need to confess Christ (that is as found in the creed) to become a anglican bishop soon.

 

[Picky_Picky]

This is only inevitable, in much the same way I suspect one will not need to confess Christ (that is as found in the creed) to become a anglican bishop soon.

You may be right, and I have only the smallest bet on one horse in this race, but it may be fair to say that the two moves wouldn’t be quite “in the same way”. The Church of England sees the Creeds as fundamental, but the role of women is not quite so certain biblically (in the view of the pontifical biblical commission) or historically (in the view of some theologians). So perhaps an ingestion of charity would be your best way forward.

 

[Nicea325]

Casey123:

It is conclusive without a shred of doubt?

I’ve got news for you in case you do not know history. **The Catholic/Orthodox Churches do fall under the umbrella of Protestanism (all man-made sects). **God is the HEAD and founder of the Catholic/Orthodox Churches. God SET the teachings…not finite creatures who distort the Truth to cater to worldly issues such as homosexuality. Big difference.

Yep! Well you can stick to your evidence,but I rather much believe an infinite God who offers no opinions.

Correction: Meant to say:

The Catholic/Orthodox Churches do NOT fall under the umbrella of Protestanism (all man-made sects).

 

[Nine_Two]

And yet Metropolitan Timothy Ware in the Orthodox Church speaks of a time when Orthodoxy ad women deacons and suggest that they might be brought back.

I’m not familiar with his arguments on that. Certainly there were deaconesses, but they weren’t the same thing as a female deacon.

 

[Nicea325]

I’m not familiar with his arguments on that. Certainly there were deaconesses, but they weren’t the same thing as a female deacon.

They same argument has been mentioned by Catholics as well. However, female deacons did not have the same duties or role as a male deacon. If I am correct, most were in administrative positions,not pastoral roles.

 

[Memaw]

I think you set back ecumenical progress a 1000 years and don’t reflect actual Roman Catholic practice. Just the other day Pope Francis suggested that good atheists go to heaven.

Me thinks you totally misunderstood. Some people have a great knack for putting words in other peoples mouth. Won’t work!, God Bless, Memaw

 

[Memaw]

And yet Metropolitan Timothy Ware in the Orthodox Church speaks of a time when Orthodoxy ad women deacons and suggest that they might be brought back.

Women deacons were Never Ordained!!! And never will be. What you fail to understand about the Catholic Church is that Pope John Paul II declared it infallibly that only males will ever be ordained in the Catholic Church and that’s the way it’s been for over 2,000 years… Other denominations do whatever they want but that doesn’t affect the teachings of the Catholic Church. We do pray for full unity, as Jesus himself prayed for, but will never go against the 2,000 year teachings of the Catholic Church. Jesus instituted one and one only Catholic Christian Church. There are well over 40,000 other denominations, all founded by a man or woman, that all seem to differ with each other on very important matters. For me, I’m gonna stay with the one Jesus founded. God Bless, Memaw