Anglican & Lutheran Eucharistic miracles

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I haven’t been able to completely pin you down on the issue. Do Methodists believe that the bread and wine cease being bread and wine and stay the Body and Blood?

If this isn’t what you believe, why do you say you believe as the Orthodox on the Eucharist as you have said in the past? Other Methodist ministers have professed a type of “consubstantiation” as you yourself have lent the opinion of. Just reaching for understanding.

Al-Masih Qam!

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew
I can’t speak for other Methodist ministers, nor may they speak officially for the church. Only the General Conference may speak for the Church, and I believe as my denomination says in its official statement… as I have told you many times before.

If you wish to converse further, perhaps we can do it by PM, as to not derail the OP.

O+
 
Anglicanism is a cut off branch.
Anglican “orders” are “illegal” because you have no “copyright”.
There’s no priesthood in Anglicanism so there’s no Eucharist and it doesn’t matter you believe in Real Presence. I am quite aware you had no eucharistic miralces and you won’t have any. Sorry for those painful words but this is what I believe in and, unfortunately for you, that’s how it is.
Spoken with the true cordial words (unfortunately not true words) of a misinformed or non-informed Catholic.
 
Spoken with the true cordial words (unfortunately not true words) of a misinformed or non-informed Catholic.
I dunno. It’s pretty spot on for what the RCC teaches about Anglican orders, and the logical conclusions that follow there-on.

Anglicans, those who are aware of the situation, tend to have other opinions, of course.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
Spoken with the true cordial words (unfortunately not true words) of a misinformed or non-informed Catholic.
Dear SIA:

The words used could and likely should be more charitable as should all acts between Christians.

But the absolute truth is that no Protestant assembly has valid Holy Orders or a valid Eucharist regardless of will or intent at this point in history…the present day. This is the contention of “all” of the Apostolic churches with a lineage stretching back to the very Apostles of Christ Jesus. The sacraments fully exist in power and effect within this communion of believers.

I can understand your perspective as my family was once Protestant but either all of those churches are wrong which compose more than 75% of Christians worldwide…or…those Protestants who have severed the Apostolic lineage, the literal sacramental theology common to earliest Christain practice and its reality that has existed since the very beginnings of “The Way”, and whose membership exists in thousands of singular denominations with distinctly different (and contradictory) sacramental theology.

Christianity and the sacraments began with Christ…not a recomposition of such in the 16th century with a group of break-away Catholics calling themselves Reformers. The reality is that the Reformation failed in its ultimate objective, namely “re-formation” of the Church. Even Luther admitted this in his writings. Instead, it merely acheived “de-formation” of the Church in its ever splintering effect due to a lack of earthly apostolic authority.

Read the Early Church Fathers of both the East and the West…many of whom were African from Pope Leo Africanus to St. Augustine who is probably the greatest theologian in Christian history. The Catholic Church is not a European entity…it is a worldwide entity. The European “Reformers” ideas on sacramental theology match not a single Church Father nor the teachings of the Church during the first 1600 years. Instead, they match the politically expedient ideas of the time.

A great example is the following:

Luther engaged in marrying Frederick/the Landgrave of Hess (a German nobleman) to another woman even though he knew that the man was validly married to another woman. That is known as polygamy which is clearly forbidden in Christianity. When the news of this got out there was a huge national scandal that resulted in Germany. Luther did this (as revealed in his own writings) to secure a political ally in Frederick and gain his support to further his theology in Germany.

Now, consider the Pope who faced the same exact situation with King Henry VIII. But instead of cowering to a heretic king, he decreed that Henry’s marriage was valid to Catherine and that he was not free to marry. The Pope upheld the law of Christ while knowing that he would likely lose the political support of Henry. This at a time when the threat of Protestantism loomed in Europe.

The word “Protestant” means “one who is not in communion with the Church; one who protests the Church”. And the Church is the bride and embodiment of Christ on earth. Hmmmm. In this case…the case that sent Anglicans down the path that Henry burned in front of them…it dealt with a Sacrament…one called marriage. Henry “protested” the Sacrament and its authority (as well as its reality) over him. Then he went on to be invalidly married 4 more times murdering 2 of his wives (one by beheading).

What sounds more authentically Christian to you? What the Pope did or what (both Reformers) King Henry VIII and Martin Luther did? What sounds more authentically Christian…the Catholic/Orthodox sacramental theology of 2000 years or that of a about dozen former priests (all Reformers) abandoning the vows that they made to God of their own free will?

Speaking from experience I think I’d rather be another one of those 1.2 billion misinformed Catholics instead of one of the 250 million self-contradiciting Protestants…being a former Protestant myself.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
 
“Now, consider the Pope who faced the same exact situation with King Henry VIII. But instead of cowering to a heretic king, he decreed that Henry’s marriage was valid to Catherine and that he was not free to marry. The Pope upheld the law of Christ while knowing that he would likely lose the political support of Henry.”

Henry’s quest for a decree of nullity, and the historical situation he acted in, as well as the Church law governing such at the time, is, like Apostolicae Curae, a hobby of mine. Clement’s actions were not particularly principled; indeed, unlike Julius, who had originally granted the dispensation for Henry to marry Arthur’s widow, Clement was quite pusillanimous, and temporized for years, hoping Catherine would agree to take the veil, Henry would die, anything, to get him out of his quandry. But nothing did

What Henry was seeking, a decree of nullity, with respect to his marriage to Catherine, was a commonplace at the time. The entire system of impediments, annulments and dispensations during this period was set up to permit two things: allow the control of marriage as a sacrament, while simultaneously allowing the making and breaking of marriages for dynastic reasons; reasons of state. The system was incredibly complex, and purposely so. Trent took it in hand and reformed it somewhat.

Henry’s causa, was not a particularly strong one. The Levetical prohibition, an impediment of affinity in the first degree, which Henry insisted the case be based on, against Wolsey’s advice, was not even the strongest case that he might have made, that the dispensation allowing his marrriage to Catherine was invalid. A stronger case lay (as Wolsey saw) in the probablility of an undispensed diriment impediment against the justice of public honesty, with the additional strength that such a *causa *didn’t argue that the original dispensation was *ultra vires *. But Henry’s case was certainly as strong as many such dynastic cases, that were routinely granted decrees of nulllity at the time (far stronger than the justification for his sister Margaret’s two decrees of nulllity, for example). Henry had reason to be confident that what he asked would be granted; it happened literally every day. But an Emperor trumps a King. Clement didn’t want to lose Henry’s support (or any secular power’s support, for that matter), but he was far more influenced by Charles, esp. after the battle of Pavia.

Like I said, this is another of my hobbies, if further discussion on the point is desired. And (an aside) I ordered a couple of books today.

GKC
 
Henry’s causa, was not a particularly strong one. The Levetical prohibition, an impediment of affinity in the first degree, which Henry insisted the case be based on, against Wolsey’s advice, was not even the strongest case that he might have made, that the dispensation allowing his marrriage to Catherine was invalid. A stronger case lay (as Wolsey saw) in the probablility of an undispensed diriment impediment against the justice of public honesty, with the additional strength that such a *causa *didn’t argue that the original dispensation was *ultra vires *. But Henry’s case was certainly as strong as many such dynastic cases, that were routinely granted decrees of nulllity at the time (far stronger than the justification for his sister Margaret’s two decrees of nulllity, for example).
A verse or two of scripture comes to mind here:
*Matthew 19:9
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery. *

*Luke 11:52
Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.” *

The case attempted here and the rationale presented here has the distinct smell of a legalistic sort of perspective. But there is a self evident contradiction in looking at this legalistically. Its as plain back in history as it is today. The contradiction is blatant at the instant anyone advocates, sympathy or justification by appealing to authority in a legalistic sense while it rejects that same authority to rule in the universal sense. How can one rationally appeal to legalistic authority while rejecting that same authority? There are two different courts - one of man and one of God and Henry tries to stand superior in the lessor court.

This is common irrationality and self-defeating behavior. What we have here is a simple case of man wanting to be greater than God. I see it metaphorically as the same sort of self indulging gluttony and pride that in this case swells a man’s belly to reveal an incontinent nature whilst manifesting a natural justice that limits a man’s reach as a man. 😉 A king that can not rule his own passions can certainly not rule another’s - certainly not justly nor competently.

So, ironically, it could be said that even Nature appears to have joined its judgement to Christ’s prophesies to force Henry VIII to kneel under the gravity of his own grotesque obesity: James 5:5 You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. Henry could no more stand against God’s Church than he could reliably stand as a man against his own lacking nature (ref: Historian E. Ives). It would seem plain enough that the man was incompetent in more than just affairs of state. Henry’s wives & mistresses seemed to produce more children after they seperated from him than they did with him (at least those who managed to stay alive, e.g. Mary Boleyn and Anne of Cleves) . Henry’s causa was self-serving, shameful and inescapably self incriminating.
Henry had reason to be confident that what he asked would be granted; it happened literally every day. But an Emperor trumps a King. Clement didn’t want to lose Henry’s support (or any secular power’s support, for that matter), but he was far more influenced by Charles, esp. after the battle of Pavia.

Like I said, this is another of my hobbies, if further discussion on the point is desired. And (an aside) I ordered a couple of books today.

GKC
Henry had every reason and the knowledge through schooling to know and to be confident that what Christ taught applied to him as much as other men; and even greater so since ‘to much that is given much is expected’. Not even King David nor King Solomon was able to escape God’s judgement nor His wrath for their violations of His precepts.

Henry, Charles & Elizabeth and all their partners in crime are all dead and buried. Henry and Elizabeth died in a state of excommunication and did not receive the sacraments of last rites. Therefor they died while in grave danger of dieing impenetent. Only God knows if their lawyer’s made a successful appeal to God’s Mercy on their death bed - but it seems a rather dubious notion given the lack of reverence, piety and active persecution against The Church.

Only The Catholic Church has the apostolic power and authority on earth to loose and bind the sins of men; including as well all Kings and Queens. But given the history just who’s causa do you imagine prevailed in the end against God’s words: ‘whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.’ (Luke 10:16)?

To me, the traditional chants ‘God save the King’ or ‘God save the Queen’ just rings hollow as a prayer and sounds more as an utterance of despair.

I don’t think History makes any good case for Henry VIII. Personally I’d rather spend the time studying the history of the saints rather than the history of bad examples and portly obdurates.

James
 
A verse or two of scripture comes to mind here:
*Matthew 19:9
And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery. *

*Luke 11:52
Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.” *

The case attempted here and the rationale presented here has the distinct smell of a legalistic sort of perspective. But there is a self evident contradiction in looking at this legalistically. Its as plain back in history as it is today. The contradiction is blatant at the instant anyone advocates, sympathy or justification by appealing to authority in a legalistic sense while it rejects that same authority to rule in the universal sense. How can one rationally appeal to legalistic authority while rejecting that same authority? There are two different courts - one of man and one of God and Henry tries to stand superior in the lessor court.

This is common irrationality and self-defeating behavior. What we have here is a simple case of man wanting to be greater than God. I see it metaphorically as the same sort of self indulging gluttony and pride that in this case swells a man’s belly to reveal an incontinent nature whilst manifesting a natural justice that limits a man’s reach as a man. 😉 A king that can not rule his own passions can certainly not rule another’s - certainly not justly nor competently.

So, ironically, it could be said that even Nature appears to have joined its judgement to Christ’s prophesies to force Henry VIII to kneel under the gravity of his own grotesque obesity: James 5:5 You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. Henry could no more stand against God’s Church than he could reliably stand as a man against his own lacking nature (ref: Historian E. Ives). It would seem plain enough that the man was incompetent in more than just affairs of state. Henry’s wives & mistresses seemed to produce more children after they seperated from him than they did with him (at least those who managed to stay alive, e.g. Mary Boleyn and Anne of Cleves) . Henry’s causa was self-serving, shameful and inescapably self incriminating.

Henry had every reason and the knowledge through schooling to know and to be confident that what Christ taught applied to him as much as other men; and even greater so since ‘to much that is given much is expected’. Not even King David nor King Solomon was able to escape God’s judgement not His wrath for their violations of His precepts.

Henry, Charles & Elizabeth and all their partners in crime are all dead and buried. Henry and Elizabeth died in a state of excommunication and did not receive the sacraments of last rites. Therefor they died while in grave danger of dieing impenetent. Only God knows if their lawyer’s made a successful appeal to God’s Mercy on their death bed - but it seems a rather dubious notion given the lack of reverence, piety and active persecution against The Church.

Only The Catholic Church has the apostolic power and authority on earth to loose and bind the sins of men; including as well all Kings and Queens. But given the history just who’s causa do you imagine prevailed in the end against God’s words: ‘whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.’ (Luke 10:16)?

To me, the traditional chants ‘God save the King’ or ‘God save the Queen’ just rings hollow as a prayer and sounds more as an utterance of despair.

I don’t think History makes any good case for Henry VIII. Personally I’d rather spend the time studying the history of the saints rather than the history of bad examples and portly obdurates.

James
It is apparent that history is not something you find interesting.

OTOH, I do. Hence, I know what happened. And what the rules were.

I’ll discuss this some, later. Right now, I’m off to handle real life. But, in one sense, you are right. The entire affair turned on legalistic matters. The Church had set it up that way, in order to do those two things I mentioned; maintain control of marriage as a sacarament, and permit the socially essential making and breaking of dynastic marriages. It happened all the time. Each diocese had a court to handle such, leading, on appeal, to the rota in Rome. There were not two courts, one of man and one of God. There was only that of the Church, which had to integrate theology and politics, the times being what they were. And it was incredibly complex, in the range of possible impediments, designed to permit the findings that would allow the making and breaking of such marriages. It was taken in hand, somewhat, in Trent, Session XXIV.

History is not something to be leery of. It’s that thing that you are told being deep in will bring a good consequence. And again, what Henry sought was a commonplace of the times, and how the system was supposed to work. But an Emperor, with a Pope in hand, trumps a King. History makes a perfectly commonplace case for Henry’s decree of nullity. And an equally commonplace case for a more powerful political entity to win, instead.

GKC
 
It is apparent that history is not something you find interesting.

OTOH, I do. Hence, I know what happened. And what the rules were.

I’ll discuss this some, later. Right now, I’m off to handle real life. But, in one sense, you are right. The entire affair turned on legalistic matters. The Church had set it up that way, in order to do those two things I mentioned; maintain control of marriage as a sacarament, and permit the socially essential making and breaking of dynastic marriages. It happened all the time. Each diocese had a court to handle such, leading, on appeal, to the rota in Rome. There were not two courts, one of man and one of God. There was only that of the Church, which had to integrate theology and politics, the times being what they were. And it was incredibly complex, in the range of possible impediments, designed to permit the findings that would allow the making and breaking of such marriages. It was taken in hand, somewhat, in Trent, Session XXIV.

History is not something to be leery of. It’s that thing that you are told being deep in will bring a good consequence. And again, what Henry sought was a commonplace of the times, and how the system was supposed to work. But an Emperor, with a Pope in hand, trumps a King. History makes a perfectly commonplace case for Henry’s decree of nullity. And an equally commonplace case for a more powerful political entity to win, instead.

GKC
GKC, I think it is interesting to note the contrast in approaches between the Roman Catholic adherent and the orthodox Anglican adherent with regard to this issue. Note I say, difference in approaches, not in the results or positions taken.

I say this, because, from what I can tell, the Roman Catholic approach to the issue is as follows:
  1. We must start with the position that whatever the Pope says about the validity of Anglican orders is true.
  2. Therefore, we need not address the veracity of the reasons that the Pope declared the Anglican orders invalid, nor whether the Pope overstepped his bounds in so declaring.
  3. Instead, we need only examine the nature of the papacy and its general authority, and classify those who attempt to put themselves outside of it.
  4. As such, we are justifying the decision of the Pope, by argument from authority, rather than from doctrine and reason.
The Anglican perspective on the issue seems to be:
  1. We must start with the idea that those who receive holy orders from those who already have holy orders, validly receive those orders, unless a defect is proven with evidence.
  2. Therefore, the question of whether someone has valid holy orders comes not from how they classify themselves, nor whose authority they submit themselves to, but instead comes from the idea that the individual is “innocent until proven guilty.”
  3. “Anglican” encompasses not only the Church of England, but other bodies in communion therewith, not all of which claim apostolic succession only or purely through the Church of England. For example, the United States-based Episcopal Church had its first bishop consecrated by bishops from the Church of Scotland. And we all know the story on Old Catholic ordinations, etc. Further, not all those in England bought into doing away with the sacrifice, etc. and cannot be said to have had invalid intentions.
  4. As such, it is not sensical, as a matter of reason and logic, to declare all Anglican orders as invalid, and no one-regardless of his position or authority-can validly claim that they are, as a group, invalid, without examining each individual case and the reasons therefore. The English bishops are (were) part of the Church at the time the pronouncement was made, and they certainly were not polled or consulted.
  5. Arguments merely from authority without evidence, which are forced on an entire group, are not convincing in any respect. Therefore, when the Pope does so, he is wrong.
With these two systems of thought, it seems like there is no way of bringing them together. They both presuppose two different things. This is not well-versed or thought out, nor have I cited any references. So it is subject to criticism. Just thought it might help the conversation.
 
GKC, I think it is interesting to note the contrast in approaches between the Roman Catholic adherent and the orthodox Anglican adherent with regard to this issue. Note I say, difference in approaches, not in the results or positions taken.

I say this, because, from what I can tell, the Roman Catholic approach to the issue is as follows:
  1. We must start with the position that whatever the Pope says about the validity of Anglican orders is true.
  2. Therefore, we need not address the veracity of the reasons that the Pope declared the Anglican orders invalid, nor whether the Pope overstepped his bounds in so declaring.
  3. Instead, we need only examine the nature of the papacy and its general authority, and classify those who attempt to put themselves outside of it.
  4. As such, we are justifying the decision of the Pope, by argument from authority, rather than from doctrine and reason.
The Anglican perspective on the issue seems to be:
  1. We must start with the idea that those who receive holy orders from those who already have holy orders, validly receive those orders, unless a defect is proven with evidence.
  2. Therefore, the question of whether someone has valid holy orders comes not from how they classify themselves, nor whose authority they submit themselves to, but instead comes from the idea that the individual is “innocent until proven guilty.”
  3. “Anglican” encompasses not only the Church of England, but other bodies in communion therewith, not all of which claim apostolic succession only or purely through the Church of England. For example, the United States-based Episcopal Church had its first bishop consecrated by bishops from the Church of Scotland. And we all know the story on Old Catholic ordinations, etc. Further, not all those in England bought into doing away with the sacrifice, etc. and cannot be said to have had invalid intentions.
  4. As such, it is not sensical, as a matter of reason and logic, to declare all Anglican orders as invalid, and no one-regardless of his position or authority-can validly claim that they are, as a group, invalid, without examining each individual case and the reasons therefore. The English bishops are (were) part of the Church at the time the pronouncement was made, and they certainly were not polled or consulted.
  5. Arguments merely from authority without evidence, which are forced on an entire group, are not convincing in any respect. Therefore, when the Pope does so, he is wrong.
With these two systems of thought, it seems like there is no way of bringing them together. They both presuppose two different things. This is not well-versed or thought out, nor have I cited any references. So it is subject to criticism. Just thought it might help the conversation.
In general, I agree with you. That’s also why I always say that a RC should always affirm what his Church says, on the matter, as at least sentenia ad fidem pertinens at a minimum. It is the conclusion, not the reasoning that is conclusive, in this case.

That being said, as an Anglo-Catholic, I too recognise the logic in the basic position that examines any relevant defect in the classic requirements of a valid sacrament. That’s a fair approach. What I do know from history is the reason why the question was raised in the first place, and why it was answered (most likely) in the way it was. It was not a slam dunk, either way, as noted by the split in the commissioners (and they had not changed their opinions during their sessions, that’'s the way they went into to it). The point, in my opinion, is that there was a thumb on the scales, beginning with the convening of the commission. Which does not mean that the final conclusion was necessarily invalid. Though I think it was. However, all RCs should certainly affirm otherwise.

Ome minor point. The defect of intentions is generally taken to be the intentions of the consecrators of ++Parker; intention having to inhere in a specific act of a specific person(s). The defect alledged was a positive intention not to do what the Church does, in consecration, as evidenced by the use of a form, defective, not in itself, but from the persons and circumstances associated with its creation. It’s possible, but rarely fruitful, to argue against this, yes. Hughes does it.

I’m gonna take a few minutes or an hour or 6, to contemplate Horny Hank and his Hormones, and the story of impediments, decrees of nullity, and dispensstions, as the game was played in the 1500s. I hope to be back; though real life intrudes. Meanwhile, do talk amongst yourselves.

GKC
 
GKC wrote:

*“I’m gonna take a few minutes or an hour or 6, to contemplate Horny Hank and his Hormones, and the story of impediments, decrees of nullity, and dispensstions, as the game was played in the 1500s.” *

Dear GKC:

In the words of Larry the Cable Guy (Appalchian hillbilly comedian for all of you Brits that may be out there), “Now that’s funny and I don’t care where you’re from…Lord forgive me for that one and don’t forget the starvin’ Pigmies.”

Thanks for the comic relief…it is appreciated.

Yourd in Christ,

Veritashunter

PS - Some of the history of what you and I mentioned is in that book, GKC. And it includes dicussions on those arranged power marriages between murderous royals throughout Europe. There were a lot of really wicked members in that club…seems like there was one next to you no matter where you stood on the continent back then. Haram! (Arabic for “what a pity”.)
 
GKC wrote:

"I’m gonna take a few minutes or an hour or 6, to contemplate Horny Hank and his Hormones, and the story of impediments, decrees of nullity, and dispensstions, as the game was played in the 1500s."

Dear GKC:

In the words of Larry the Cable Guy (Appalchian hillbilly comedian for all of you Brits that may be out there), “Now that’s funny and I don’t care where you’re from…Lord forgive me for that one and don’t forget the starvin’ Pigmies.”

Thanks for the comic relief…it is appreciated.

Yourd in Christ,

Veritashunter

PS - Some of the history of what you and I mentioned is in that book, GKC. And it includes dicussions on those arranged power marriages between murderous royals throughout Europe. There were a lot of really wicked members in that club…seems like there was one next to you no matter where you stood on the continent back then. Haram! (Arabic for “what a pity”.)
Glad you liked it. I take my history light, but serious.

Arranged marriages were the rule, in the levels that we’re talking about. And that was much of the problem. Maybe I’ll get to this tonight. We shall see.

BTW, I ordered that book, yesterday; it’s on it’s way. I’ll have one to recommend myself, eventually. Maybe two.

GKC
 
Dear All Concerned Christians:

St. Ignatius of Antioch is the first of the Church Fathers who writes extensive commentary on all that we are discussing (except in portions of the Didache). His commentary is not Anglican or Roman…it is Syrian! So, there should be no question of its fairness to apostolic orthodoxy. Ignatius was in constant battle with heretics and he spoke of the requirement for one to follow, obey, and submit to the authority of the bishop (as none of the Reformers did). He requires as a proof-part of one’s salvation to perform works in faith in Christ for the poor and the low (unlike the Reformers false Sola Fide). He speaks of the Eucharist as the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ present and to deny it is to bring death upon yourself (like the Reformers). He states that the Eucharist is only valid from a priest in union with his (never her) superior bishop (unlike the Reformers). He even states that no person is to do “anything” connected with the Church without the bishop. He further instructs us to ignore and abandone all of those who teach otherwise rejecting these truths or teach any in thier place (as did the Reformers) for they have condemned themselves.

St. Ignatius died in AD 107 so these words were written no more than 70 years after the death of Christ Jesus…not in the 1600s or at Trent:

*"But consider those who hold a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ that has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. they have made no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of his goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against the gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes…

See that you follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus follows the Father, and the priests as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as those who carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist which is administered either by the bishop or by one whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything may be secure and valid."*

Those words from the 1st century just decades following the crucifixion of Christ. Ignatius was the disciple of St. John and was installed as bishop by St. Peter and St. Paul. In the history of the Church and its Councils Ignatius may be the most often quoted and respected Father (with the possible exception of St. Augustine). His writing is the first to use the word Catholic so who better to define its authentic and timeless meaning…only one better source I can think of…the Councils of the Church that adopted the word “Catholic”. Oh yeah, and the Bishop of Rome (St. Peter) who installed the Bishop of Antioch as well as the great educator of the nations (St. Paul) who confirmed his See.

Now, just for the sake of argument, could you again remind me of the theological resumes of the Reformers? Were they bishops? Were they Fathers of the Church? Were they at the Councils? No. Hmmm. Hmmm. Hmmm. Let us review: Heretical priest abandoning vows, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto…Okay, I’ve got nothing here.

St. Justin maybe? The Great Apologist of AD 100- AD 165: “The food that has been made the Eucharist by the prayer of His word, and which nourishes the flesh and blood by assimilation, is both the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

Nope, no luck there either. Hmmm. I know, we’ll start our own ecclesial assembly and call it a “church” abandoning Holy Tradition/the Church Fathers/the apostolic lineage/the Councils, work against our bishops and Patriarchs invalidating future holy orders, deny the True Eucharist and replace it with Welch’s grape juice and Triscuits from Foodway making it a more politically correct meal with a 1/3 less divintiy than our regular Eucharist (tastes great/less filling), then we’ll fracture into about 20,000 subgroups, then we’ll deny the earthly authority of the Church, we’ll make up Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, we’ll remove 7 books and 2 half-books of Sacred Scripture Canon that contradict our innovative opinions, then eventually we’ll fracture into completely fundamentalist non-sacramental disunity declaring our heresy the authentic true church and call the True Church (the embodiment of Christ on earth) the Whore of Babylon.

Seriously! Why didn’t I think of that? No telling where I might of ended up otherwise…like heaven! Comedy? Yes! Funny? No! Because it is a comedy of errors.

Archbishop Newman said “The closer one becomes with (Church/Christian) history the more distant one becomes from Protestantism.” So, please come home. We Catholics and Orthodox miss our brothers and sisters.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
 
Dear All Concerned Christians:

St. Ignatius of Antioch is the first of the Church Fathers who writes extensive commentary on all that we are discussing (except in portions of the Didache). His commentary is not Anglican or Roman…it is Syrian! So, there should be no question of its fairness to apostolic orthodoxy. Ignatius was in constant battle with heretics and he spoke of the requirement for one to follow, obey, and submit to the authority of the bishop (as none of the Reformers did). He requires as a proof-part of one’s salvation to perform works in faith in Christ for the poor and the low (unlike the Reformers false Sola Fide). He speaks of the Eucharist as the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ present and to deny it is to bring death upon yourself (like the Reformers). He states that the Eucharist is only valid from a priest in union with his (never her) superior bishop (unlike the Reformers). He even states that no person is to do “anything” connected with the Church without the bishop. He further instructs us to ignore and abandone all of those who teach otherwise rejecting these truths or teach any in thier place (as did the Reformers) for they have condemned themselves.

St. Ignatius died in AD 107 so these words were written no more than 70 years after the death of Christ Jesus…not in the 1600s or at Trent:

*"But consider those who hold a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ that has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. they have made no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our savior Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of his goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against the gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes…

See that you follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus follows the Father, and the priests as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacons as those who carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist which is administered either by the bishop or by one whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything may be secure and valid*."

Those words from the 1st century just decades following the crucifixion of Christ. Ignatius was the disciple of St. John and was installed as bishop by St. Peter and St. Paul. In the history of the Church and its Councils Ignatius may be the most often quoted and respected Father (with the possible exception of St. Augustine). His writing is the first to use the word Catholic so who better to define its authentic and timeless meaning…only one better source I can think of…the Councils of the Church that adopted the word “Catholic”. Oh yeah, and the Bishop of Rome (St. Peter) who installed the Bishop of Antioch as well as the great educator of the nations (St. Paul) who confirmed his See.

Now, just for the sake of argument, could you again remind me of the theological resumes of the Reformers? Were they bishops? Were they Fathers of the Church? Were they at the Councils? No. Hmmm. Hmmm. Hmmm. Let us review: Heretical priest abandoning vows, ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto…Okay, I’ve got nothing here.

St. Justin maybe? The Great Apologist of AD 100- AD 165: “The food that has been made the Eucharist by the prayer of His word, and which nourishes the flesh and blood by assimilation, is both the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

Nope, no luck there either. Hmmm. I know, we’ll start our own ecclesial assembly and call it a “church” abandoning Holy Tradition/the Church Fathers/the apostolic lineage/the Councils, work against our bishops and Patriarchs invalidating future holy orders, deny the True Eucharist and replace it with Welch’s grape juice and Triscuits from Foodway making it a more politically correct meal with a 1/3 less divintiy than our regular Eucharist (tastes great/less filling), then we’ll fracture into about 20,000 subgroups, then we’ll deny the earthly authority of the Church, we’ll make up Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, we’ll remove 7 books and 2 half-books of Sacred Scripture Canon that contradict our innovative opinions, then eventually we’ll fracture into completely fundamentalist non-sacramental disunity declaring our heresy the authentic true church and call the True Church (the embodiment of Christ on earth) the Whore of Babylon.

Seriously! Why didn’t I think of that? No telling where I might of ended up otherwise…like heaven! Comedy? Yes! Funny? No! Because it is a comedy of errors.

Archbishop Newman said “The closer one becomes with (Church/Christian) history the more distant one becomes from Protestantism.” So, please come home. We Catholics and Orthodox miss our brothers and sisters.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
Certainly agree with the good Saint re: the bishops. Of the essence of the Church. Since Anglican (except as noted) bishops possess Apostolic succession and valid orders, hence valid sacraments, no argument from us.

I’ve used those very passages to explain stuff to protestants, myself. And lots more.

BTW, if I fall asleep tonight, I’ll try to be back tomorrow. I hope. It’s been a long day.

GKC
 
I take as my text the phrase “a distinct smell of a legalistic sort of perspective“. It has a nice ring, and the additional advantage of being precisely, exactly, what the system of decrees of nullity, impediments and dispensations, evolved by the Church to manage marriage, was, in the days of which we speak. I’ll expound a little. After which, if necessary, I’ll expand. Followed, if required, by huffing, puffing and bluffing. And though this is the Classic Illustrated version, I might run over the 4k limit. So I’ll leave stuff lots of out. If any one notices, ask. Or if more info on any point I mention is wanted, likewise. There is stuff behind most of these points.

By the 16th century, the Church system for managing the sacrament of marriage was incredibly complex. It was designed to do two things: protect the sacrament, and simultaneously permit the making and unmaking of dynastic marriages, for political reasons. At Henry’s level, arranged marriages were basically between nation and nation, interest and interest, region and region, not two individuals. And marriages so arranged for reasons of state must be able to be re-arranged, as reasons of state required. And so it was ordered. To do this, a system of courts, running up to the Rota in Rome existed. And marriages were made and unmade, routinely and constantly, decrees issued, impediments dispensed, under this system. Plenty examples available, in and around Henry, if required.

The evolved system focused on a complicated series of impediments, legal conditions that would prevent a marriage, that might generally be divided into two classes. One focused on “intent” (with respect to the four classic requirements for a sacrament). This affected mostly the ordinary folk, and was concerned with such things as fraud, force or incompetence in a marriage; the intent must be informed and voluntary (loosely interpreted).

The other class of impediments focused on the “matter” of the sacrament; whether the individuals could validly marry, considering the system of wide spread impediments, that fell into three general categories: consanguinity, affinity, and a even more complex one called the justice of public honesty. And since this is where it gets tricky, I’ll leave out the details. Raise your hand for more. For now, just note that a contemporary Scottish bishop observed that, given the widespread web of impediments, it was unlikely any two persons of quality could marry totally assured there was no lurking impediment anywhere. Which was exactly the point. And, Trent began to reform it, as it did other stuff.

Using the system, Henry sought to do what was commonplace at the time, at his social level. He sought a decree of nullity with respect to his marriage to Catherine, in order to make a marriage that would provide him with a legitimate male heir (a thing that had been worrying him for years) and also permit him to scratch an itch that he had recently acquired, re: La Boleyn. Seemed reasonable to him.

And, with respect to the system as it was worked in his day, it was not only reasonable, it was unexceptional. It happened daily. To make it happen, Henry had to submit his case to the system, and wait for a decree of nullity, which he was fully justified in expecting to be forthcoming. His case was based on the concept of an impediment to his marriage to Catherine, arising from the prohibition in Leviticus against a man marrying his brother’s wife; a form of impediment of affinity (of which there were many kinds and degrees. Because of this impediment, Julius II had issued a dispensation (the other side of a decree of nullity, removing an impediment) permitting Henry to marry Catherine in the first place. Henry’s case maintained that the prohibition was Scriptural, God’s law, not positive Church law, and thus was beyond a Pope’s power to dispense. There are impediments like that; no one can dispense to permit a son to marry his mother for example (an absolute impediment of consanguinity in the first degree, direct, not to get technical). This meant that he was saying that Julius had made an error and the dispensation exceeded Papal authority ( was ultra vires). Church rulings on whether the Levitical prohibition was natural or Divine law had varied over the years.

While a reasonable case, it was not an exceptionally strong one (there exists a text in Deuteronomy that mitigates against it), though normally, it wouldn’t need to be. And Clement was not an exceptionally strong Pope. And for historical reasons that I pass over, the ruling was against Henry (hint: Charles V). But there was actually a stronger case lurking in Henry’s history (not that either case would have gotten him the decree of nullity; politics and military power trump canonical law). His stronger case, as Cardinal Wolsey saw, lay in the class of impediments called the justice of public honesty. Without getting into too many technical details, this meant that if a marriage was contracted and consummated between A and B, two actual types of impediments might arise for person C later wishing to marry A or B. There was the potential for an impediment of affinity, which arose from the consummation of the marriage, or of the justice of public honesty, which arose from the betrothal/marriage contract.

At the time, the rule was that if a valid marriage was contracted, and consummated, and later a dispensation was sought for someone who would have an impediment to marrying A or B, the dispensation need only specifically state that the affinity impediment was dispensed, and the impediment of public honesty was thereby dispensed, implicitly. But, if Catherine and Arthur’s marriage was *not *consummated, as Catherine and others maintained all along, and as was likely true, then the justice of public honesty must be explicitly dispensed. Julius didn’t do that. And hence there was a good case for Henry. Precisely the sort of crack the system was designed to allow.

He didn’t pursue that, and it didn’t really matter. Given the relationship between Clement and Charles, and Charles and Catherine, no way was Henry going to get a decree of nullity. An Emperor trumps a King. And an emperor controlling a Pope is stronger still. So Henry didn’t get his decree. He got a Church, instead. He was run over by a political decision (which was part of the system) and replied with a political reaction.

This is the quick version, and note that it matters not a whit how hefty Henry was (and at the time, he was still fairly svelte, jousting and all) or how fragile the Tudor genes were. The system, arranged to permit just what he sought, smacked him in the face. He responded.

Yes, I know more about it. And if you want to, too (aside from talking to me), I suggest J. J. Scarisbrick’s HENRY VIII, the current standard bio. It’s not pro-Henry, it’s pro- history. Which is good, keeps down the waving of cardboard cutouts. And, for mind numbing detail, H. Kelly’s THE MATRIMONIAL TRIALS OF HENRY VIII. He doesn’t always agree with Scarisbrick.

And yes, I’ve C&P myself here. Saves time.

GKC
 
Dear GKC:

Since the Angicans have at the very least some orders (for certain) that have been currupted over time and it is somewhat impossible for them to sort them all out considering the many intercommunions that they have made with so many groups without any valid orders…why is it so hard for the Anglicans to come home?

They are splitting themselves up and corrupting their ranks more and more each year through such things as the ordination of women and ordination of homosexuals especially in the Episcopal communion. They permit artificial birth control (another thing the Church Fathers were, in fact, violently opposed to even in the early 2nd century).

I mean, if the head man Archbishop Newman did this 100 years or more ago why didn’t everyone else follow their bishop and his leadership as Ignatius requires? What reason could be legitimate in this case? After all, the head bishop recognized and came into full communion with the Pope. After that, the rest just seems like simple pride rather than logic and reason. Ignatius said that where the bishop is there also must the people be. So, how can any action opposing non-communion be legitimate in any way after that to anyone that was under his authority? After all, the final authority must rest with a single bishop…not a consortium of fellows. Only the Pope can confirm the findings of a Council…while Patriarchs call synods of their underbishops in the same fashion…one single bishop has to be the vested apex of the authority…so who is it in Anglicanism? It seems to me that it is structured so that there can be no true singular traditional bishopric authority which clearly violates the teachings of Ignatius (as well as dozens of others). And if this is the case then there is no way it could be a valid form of Apostolic leadership as none of the Patriarchates of the East or West follow that model (or ever have historically).

And why haven’t you done so? Even if you are a married member of the clergy you can be taken in as a priest an ordained following a year or two or study. Even Newman did that. If you are worried about a place to stay…we’ll find somewhere for you to bunk…it’s only for a year or so. Ha Ha

It is happening a lot now, especially with Anglicans and Lutherans. Heck, EWTN had to develop a ministry out of Zanesville, OH called the Coming Home Network just to help those individuals make the transition more smoothly.

Why not just come home and know that you are where you should be according to Ignatius?

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
 
Dear GKC:

Since the Angicans have at the very least some orders (for certain) that have been currupted over time and it is somewhat impossible for them to sort them all out considering the many intercommunions that they have made with so many groups without any valid orders…why is it so hard for the Anglicans to come home?

They are splitting themselves up and corrupting their ranks more and more each year through such things as the ordination of women and ordination of homosexuals especially in the Episcopal communion. They permit artificial birth control (another thing the Church Fathers were, in fact, violently opposed to even in the early 2nd century).

I mean, if the head man Archbishop Newman did this 100 years or more ago why didn’t everyone else follow their bishop and his leadership as Ignatius requires? What reason could be legitimate in this case? After all, the head bishop recognized and came into full communion with the Pope. After that, the rest just seems like simple pride rather than logic and reason. Ignatius said that where the bishop is there also must the people be. So, how can any action opposing non-communion be legitimate in any way after that to anyone that was under his authority? After all, the final authority must rest with a single bishop…not a consortium of fellows. Only the Pope can confirm the findings of a Council…while Patriarchs call synods of their underbishops in the same fashion…one single bishop has to be the vested apex of the authority…so who is it in Anglicanism? It seems to me that it is structured so that there can be no true singular traditional bishopric authority which clearly violates the teachings of Ignatius (as well as dozens of others). And if this is the case then there is no way it could be a valid form of Apostolic leadership as none of the Patriarchates of the East or West follow that model (or ever have historically).

And why haven’t you done so? Even if you are a married member of the clergy you can be taken in as a priest an ordained following a year or two or study. Even Newman did that. If you are worried about a place to stay…we’ll find somewhere for you to bunk…it’s only for a year or so. Ha Ha

It is happening a lot now, especially with Anglicans and Lutherans. Heck, EWTN had to develop a ministry out of Zanesville, OH called the Coming Home Network just to help those individuals make the transition more smoothly.

Why not just come home and know that you are where you should be according to Ignatius?

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
Newman wasn’t the head man, by which I assume you mean the Archbishop of Canterbury. Nor was he the Archbishop of York, which exhausts the Church of England’s Archbishops. Nor was he a garden variety Bishop. He was a priest, and no more. But a very bright priest.

I’m not a priest at all. Though my son-in-law is an ordained deacon. I’m a retired Air Force officer. And book collector.

You do recall that we differ on whether Anglican orders are valid?

Again, your thoughts are appreciated.

GKC
 
Dear GKC:

I apologize. For some wierd reason even though I’ve read about his in the past and his experience in the Oxford Movement I always seem to think he was an Archbishop in the Angican and Catholic Church as well. Sorry! Old age setting in!

But, to that same point, other bishops have done so such as Graham Leonard former Anglican Bishop of London.

In an interview Graham was asked the following:

Question: Did you perceive this sliding into subjectivism, into relativism, in the last years, or did you realise that it was at the root of the birth of the Anglican Church?

Answer: "In fact, it as always been like this since the 16th-century Reformation. In that period, when the Anglican Church was born, faith was expressed as an attempt to respond to the political situation created by Henry VIII. Professor [Sir Maurice] Powicke said it clearly this way: "What can be definitely said about the Reformation in England is that it was an act of state."

The Church in England found itself at the mercy of, and having to be subjected to, the political objectives of the Tudr monarchy. To do so, it ceased to be the Catholic Church in England and became the Church of England.


So, GKC, the question still remains why aren’t YOU in union with your real home and the authoritative Church?

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
 
Dear GKC:

I apologize. For some wierd reason even though I’ve read about his in the past and his experience in the Oxford Movement I always seem to think he was an Archbishop in the Angican and Catholic Church as well. Sorry! Old age setting in!

But, to that same point, other bishops have done so such as Graham Leonard former Anglican Bishop of London.

In an interview Graham was asked the following:

Question: Did you perceive this sliding into subjectivism, into relativism, in the last years, or did you realise that it was at the root of the birth of the Anglican Church?

Answer: "In fact, it as always been like this since the 16th-century Reformation. In that period, when the Anglican Church was born, faith was expressed as an attempt to respond to the political situation created by Henry VIII. Professor [Sir Maurice] Powicke said it clearly this way: "What can be definitely said about the Reformation in England is that it was an act of state."

The Church in England found itself at the mercy of, and having to be subjected to, the political objectives of the Tudr monarchy. To do so, it ceased to be the Catholic Church in England and became the Church of England.


So, GKC, the question still remains why aren’t YOU in union with your real home and the authoritative Church?

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
Graham Leonard was a good Anglican, and is, no doubt, a good RC priest. He was, as you may know, the second person (Fr. Hughes, the author of those books on Apostolicae Curae I keep recommending was the first) to be ordained as a RC priest sub conditione.

I am at home, with the Catholic Church. So is he.

GKC
 
I am at home, with the Catholic Church. So is he.

GKC
This is an illusion and wishful thinking. Christ has ONE church with one head not a legion of heads operating as a hydra with one body. Protestantism has created a monster.

James
 
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