Anglican & Lutheran Eucharistic miracles

  • Thread starter Thread starter dizzy_dave
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, I’ll just inject this for thought.

If you have to have a valid priest, orders, so on and so forth, in order to perform the miracle, then is it really a miracle? Seems like the true miracle, according to Roman Catholicism’s own standards, would be for one of these grotesque displays of blood and guts to appear in an Anglican or Lutheran church. Now, that should sound like a miracle to a Catholic.
 
CentralFLJames said:
This is non-biblical. God does not hear the prayers of those living in the grave sin of heresy and separation of His Catholic Church except for repentance. The Catholic Church is the only church in existance who have valid priestly orders and a valid sacramental mass.
Click to expand...
I believe that’s incorrect, even by Catholic standards. The Orthodox have valid orders and masses. At least, according to your Magisterium… which also disagrees with you regarding prayer (unless the Catechism is wrong).

Of course, I disagree with the rest that you’ve said. Amicably.

Pax vobiscum.
 
O.S.Luke said:
I believe that’s incorrect, even by Catholic standards. The Orthodox have valid orders and masses. At least, according to your Magisterium… which also disagrees with you regarding prayer (unless the Catechism is wrong).

Of course, I disagree with the rest that you’ve said. Amicably.

Pax vobiscum.
Click to expand...
Orthodox are Catholic and what I said is consistent with teaching - mortal sin cuts one off from all grace except for the possibility of repentant grace. In a state of mortal sin (heretics) prayer that is not repentant is simply not heard. There is no end-run around The Church possible. Except for universal grace for conversion all grace flows through The Catholic Church. Grape juice remains grape juice and crackers remain crackers in the few Protestant assemblies that try to emulate the sacraments. It is likely that even attempting to illicitly perform the transubstantiaion is itself sacrilege - which becomes another event for mortal sin itself - not salvation.

Protestants have access to baptismal grace and perhaps marriage grace and can benefit from this until such time they commit a mortal sin or lose their infallible ignorance status. But those becoming obdurate and consciously rejecting The Catholic Church or those becoming belligerent or hostile to The Catholic Church even in partial ignorance to persecute the Church commit a mortal sin since hate is contrary to all aspects of Christianity and natural law and conscience.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
This is non-biblical. God does not hear the prayers of those living in the grave sin of heresy and separation of His Catholic Church except for repentance. The Catholic Church is the only church in existance who have valid priestly orders and a valid sacramental mass.

’He who rejects you rejects me’.

Protestants have willfully and consciously rejected the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. The only ecumenical miracle is that God continues to pour out His Universal Grace to beg Protestants to return to The Church and His full salvific grace before they perish and are held accountable by His Justice for every act of disobedience and willful promotion of false heretical teaching such as this.

James
Click to expand...
Amen! Lord have mercy on us all! I defy any Protestant to go to Eucharistic Adoration and find the real presence of God and compare it to what happens during their services when they try to confect the Eucharist. The difference is astounding.😉

Al-Masih Qam!
Andrew
 
Originally Posted by **jblake **
What I was pointing out was that different groups can, and do view the exact same event, coming to different conclusions about its cause, effect, and affect. Those conclusions are how the group defines the event.

But there is only one Truth. Truth is not subjective…it is objective. Your point is a contridiction of terms and the writings of Sacred Scripture. How one interprets Truth does not change its reality.

Originally Posted by jblake
Such as those great non-Catholics, Pope Honorius and Pope Gregory. (Both of them wrote grimoires.)

**Your angst is clearly focused on the Catholic Church and on the imperfection of its membership. If you find the perfect Christian communion on earth with a flawless membership…well, the moment you or I join we ruined it for everybody else because it will then no longer be perfect. That is the nature of being a Christian…we are only perfected by Christ and truly ministered to by His Church (His bride, His embodiment on earth). **

Originally Posted by jblake
That hasn’t prevented Catholic Priests from either practicing, or keeping alive the traditions and knowledge of Ceremonial Magic.
Indeed, it is due to their efforts that so many grimoires, and the like were preserved.

The Salem witch trials, the KKK, Jim Jones and the massacre, Jimmy Swaggert, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker, Oral Roberts, the Branch Davidians, the Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness movements, the Peasant Wars, Henry VIII murdering his wives and burning churches and looting the relics of the Church, Martin Luther approving of and knowingly taking part in officiating a polygamist marriage ceremony for Philip the Landgrave of Hess, Jeremiah Wright (most recently in the papers), etc. I now see the flawless nature and impecability of Protestant leadership and history. What was I thinking?

Originally Posted by **jblake **
By breaking the disinterested, it is easier to break the Bride of Christ.

This is a completely illogical assertion. The interested are the members of the bride of Christ fully invested in her Truth. The disinterested are those willing to entertain something other than the Truth of the Church.

Dear jblake:

My previous post (the point of your initial criticism) was based in Sacred Scripture…not the conjecture of personal opinion. That was one of the hardest things for me to accept about being Catholic (or Orthodox for that matter). One has to overcome one’s own opinions and be truly faithful.

“You must deny yourself, pick up your cross each day, and follow me.” In this one statement…no health-wealth-prosperity doctrine, no once-saved-always-saved doctrine (it is a marathon day after day, not a sprint), no God-on-my-terms doctrine (if they reject you they reject me). It says wake up, expect suffering, persevere through it by living in Me (the Christ) and following my teachings.

And since Paul says that the Church (the household of the Lord) is the bullwork and foundation of all Truth, and that we must follow those with authority over us in the Church, and that we must accept all or nothing, and because Christ said “This is my body, this is my blood, you must eat my flesh or there shall be no life in you, if you deny me before others I will deny you before my Father.” As for me I guess I’ll go with the testimony of Christ and His holy apostles.

I’ll wake up each day (a sinner still in need of grace and the mercy of God)…deny myself (which I sometimes do so poorly)…and follow Christ (observing all that He and His appointed disciples…and their disciples…and their disciples, etc. have instructed). And I will not try to make him into a liar…I think we have all done that enough in our lives. I take God at His word because He was the Word made Flesh.

I also think that 1.5 billion Catholic and Orthodox Christians who are able to trace their Priestly and Bishopric lineage as well as their Sacramental doctrine of the 7 Sacraments (including the Most Holy Eucharist) back to the very Apostles of the Lord who have professed the same body, blood, soul, and divinity of the Lord present in the Most Holy Eucharist for 2,000 years from the very days of His death, descent into Hades, and glorious ressurrection on the 3rd day, pretty much says it all.

WE BELIEVE IN ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH…Council of Nicea in 325 AD, the vote was 314 yeah and 2 neah.

My Faith is is the Holy Spirit that overshadowed and moved the hearts of 314 just men (not just in themselves, rather justified and sanctified in the Spirit)…not in the heresy of the 2 in dissent. Even Christ Jesus had Judas! I beleive in the words of Christ in MT 16 and MT 18 when He gave the Apostles authority and power over the earthly Church. It teaches by the authority of Christ…either accept it or reject it. There is no “feel good” middle ground.

More simply, either Jesus said…“This is my body, this is my blood, you must eat my flesh or there shall be no life in you” or He didn’t. Either he meant it “truly” as He said “Amen. Amen. I say to you…” or He didn’t. I know that He did! And I shall pray that you see it, too!

The disbelief in the reality of the Eucharist is an indictment of Christ’s sacrifice of Himself (His very flesh) and eternal gift of His flesh and blood back to us for the saving of souls and His experiencing the separation of the body and soul of man just as we die, it is an indictment of His bodily ressurrection, an indictment against the promise that He would be with us always and that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Most sadly of all it is an indictment of the reality of the actual words of the Word Made Flesh who lowered Himself for our sakes and dwelt among men as man incarnate.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter
Former Protestant
 
CentralFLJames said:
This is non-biblical. God does not hear the prayers of those living in the grave sin of heresy and separation of His Catholic Church except for repentance. The Catholic Church is the only church in existance who have valid priestly orders and a valid sacramental mass.

’He who rejects you rejects me’.

Protestants have willfully and consciously rejected the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. The only ecumenical miracle is that God continues to pour out His Universal Grace to beg Protestants to return to The Church and His full salvific grace before they perish and are held accountable by His Justice for every act of disobedience and willful promotion of false heretical teaching such as this.

James
Click to expand...
Oh horsefeathers!😛

God Bless!
 
veritashunter;:
Your angst is clearly focused on the Catholic Church and on the imperfection of its membership.
Click to expand...
And just how many times have you had a personal conversation with Lucifer, in the flesh?

xan

jonathon
 
CentralFLJames said:
That is not doctrinal to Anglican belief and theologically speaking Catholics, per Pope Leo XIII’s Apostolicae Curae not only do not accept Anglicans as having valid Priestly Orders but deny them that authority through the binding and losing authority of The Church. Sorry, but Anglicans have NO authority nor ability to transform bread and wine into Holy Eucharist - even if some individual Anglicans actually mistakenly believe that is what the Anglican dogma affirms (and it does not). So, Anglicans exercise in fact a symbolic ritual through men who are self appointed in a role that is only a symbolic priesthood.

Get the real thing - become Catholic.

James
Click to expand...
Well! one day I went to a church gathering in tha Angelicam church for the funeral of a very good friend who was a decon in the Anglican church. While there I wondered why I couldn’t go to communion since it was the last day of his being on earth and he believed in and adored Jesus the Father Son and Holy Spirit.

These words came through my mind, “what better gift could your friend give you before he left this earth”. I thought about it and received communion leaving the judgment to God.
It was my beliefe that it really is in my heart.

Godbless.
 
CentralFLJames said:
This is non-biblical. God does not hear the prayers of those living in the grave sin of heresy and separation of His Catholic Church except for repentance. The Catholic Church is the only church in existance who have valid priestly orders and a valid sacramental mass.

’He who rejects you rejects me’.

Protestants have willfully and consciously rejected the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. The only ecumenical miracle is that God continues to pour out His Universal Grace to beg Protestants to return to The Church and His full salvific grace before they perish and are held accountable by His Justice for every act of disobedience and willful promotion of false heretical teaching such as this.

James
Click to expand...
They have not Rejected the Catholic and apostolic church they are a part of it. Lutherans are catholic provided that you know what Catholic or a Catholic is.
 
catholiconce said:
They have not Rejected the Catholic and apostolic church they are a part of it. Lutherans are catholic provided that you know what Catholic or a Catholic is.
Click to expand...
Well, that’s the whole argument, isn’t it? Who gets to define what Catholic means?
 
catholiconce said:
They have not Rejected the Catholic and apostolic church they are a part of it. Lutherans are catholic provided that you know what Catholic or a Catholic is.
Click to expand...
Apparently Lutherans think they follow Luther not Christ nor Christ’s Vicar. Otherwise they would call themselves “Catholic” don’t you think? 😉

James
 
jblake said:
And just how many times have you had a personal conversation with Lucifer, in the flesh?

xan

jonathon
Click to expand...
Dear jblake:

First, I don’t speak to Lucifer. Do you?

Second, obviously you must not realize that an angel is a spiritual being…not an earthly one.

They do not have “bodies” in the sense that we do…so speaking to a fallen angel such as Lucifer “in the flesh” would be quite impossible…strictly speaking.

That is what makes the “body, blood, soul, and divinity” of Christ Jesus found in the Most Holy Eucharist superior to all that exists in the universe. It is the earthly Creation of the hand of God in bread and wine transformed and mystically “interpenetrated” by Christ Jesus and with His glorious divinity “in the flesh”.

Your bitterness is sad…harden not your heart.

Yours in Christ,

Veritashunter

I will pray for you, Jonathon.
 
CentralFLJames said:
Apparently Lutherans think they follow Luther not Christ nor Christ’s Vicar. Otherwise they would call themselves “Catholic” don’t you think? 😉

James
Click to expand...
We follow Christ not Luther You have a great deal to learn about the original catholic church The Roman Rite is not the One true Catholic church but rathe
 
backwoods_blues said:
We follow Christ not Luther You have a great deal to learn about the original catholic church The Roman Rite is not the One true Catholic church but rathe
Click to expand...
Baloney.

You are confusing rites with different religious faiths. Catholics, whether Roman or other rites are the only Catholics and true Christians on the planet. I include Orthodox in this as well.

Lutherans and other Protestant sects with NO apostolic succession are just that - sects that are little more than man made self styled ecclesiastical communities. These are most certainly NOT Catholic. Catholics share a batism with most Protestants. That is good but not sufficient (to assure salvation). Such sects have gone well out of their way to distinguish themselves as anything but Catholic by changing their names, their rites and their liturgy and have created out of thin air new traditions founded in modern history (only 500 years old) and heretical teachings that NONE of the early Church practised.

Counterfeit theologies might give good moral teachings and lower the civil crime rate and contribute to social “law and order” and may make people “feel good” but they do not worship God in a way that is acceptable to Him since they lack a valid sacrament of the mass (ref. Cain and Abel). There are no known credible miracles coming out of any Protestant sect to compare with the thousands of highly credible miracles associates with the Catholic Faith. That is telling enough as to what is valid and what is counterfeit in God’s eyes.

James
 
CentralFLJames said:
Baloney.

You are confusing rites with different religious faiths. Catholics, whether Roman or other rites are the only Catholics and true Christians on the planet. I include Orthodox in this as well.

Lutherans and other Protestant sects with NO apostolic succession are just that - sects that are little more than man made self styled ecclesiastical communities. These are most certainly NOT Catholic. Catholics share a batism with most Protestants. That is good but not sufficient (to assure salvation). Such sects have gone well out of their way to distinguish themselves as anything but Catholic by changing their names, their rites and their liturgy and have created out of thin air new traditions founded in modern history (only 500 years old) and heretical teachings that NONE of the early Church practised.

Counterfeit theologies might give good moral teachings and lower the civil crime rate and contribute to social “law and order” and may make people “feel good” but they do not worship God in a way that is acceptable to Him since they lack a valid sacrament of the mass (ref. Cain and Abel). There are no known credible miracles coming out of any Protestant sect to compare with the thousands of highly credible miracles associates with the Catholic Faith. That is telling enough as to what is valid and what is counterfeit in God’s eyes.

James/

I was not aware that central fl James determined how God wanted to be worshiped. Did he tell you that protestants worshiped wrong? Apostolic succesion ? True christians really and others are not ? Your statements alone and the tone of them tell me you have a great deal to learn about being a christian. I am a Lutheran and I am just as much a christian as you. Who are you to define who is christian and who is not.? I guess you determine who gains salvation " just because your catholic do you think your headed straight to Heaven and Protestants are going to________ (Fill in the Blank)

You know I am glad I left The RCC everday if is you or righteousone or Backwoods Blues You seem to all have an attitude about you. ( check out their posts scary) Wow How arrogant!!!

I
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top