Anglican Ordinariate, Lutherans, and Protestant Reunion

[ThatOneGuy92]

Do you mean the Personal Ordinariate established by HH Benedict XVI, 1/15/2011 in England and Wales and 1/1/2012 in the US?

Individual Anglicans seeking to become Catholic who are not part of an entire Anglican parish seeking to become Catholic together, individual Lutherans and any other Christian individuals come into the Latin Church via RCIA in a local Latin Church parish (or they could be received into the Catholic Church in any Eastern Catholic Church parish as canonically Latin Catholic). In the ordinariate process of course each individual is received into the Catholic Church but they come as an entire parish.

I believe a group of clergy and laity Anglicans was received into the Catholic Church last Easter in the Ordinariate for England and Wales, the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham. Here in the US the first group, Mount Calvary Church in Baltimore, was received this past Sunday, Jan 22 under the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.

A person who is member of the Lutheran Church cannot be a member of the Anglican Church and so could not come into the Catholic Church with a parish of Anglicans via the Personal Ordinariate.

There is no “Anglican Ordinary” in the Catholic Church. The Ordinary for the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter here in the US is a former Anglican bishop. Father Jeffrey Steenson is an Ordinary who is a priest not a bishop since he is married and married priests cannot be bishops. God grant him many years!

***** I just noticed that today is the day this group of dear men begins their journey towards ordination as Catholic priests. May we keep them in our prayers.

Thank you for the clarification, 5Loaves. I do understand that there technically is no “Anglican Ordinary”; I was pressed for time, and merely using shorthand.

As for Lutherans not entering via the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter there is indeed a group that, to my knowledge, is being received into Catholicism via the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. I am thinking, of course, of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholics:
anglolutherancatholic.org/anglican-ordinariate/

So if this group is being received this way, in theory it could be possible that in the future such Lutheran communities could be received in similar manner.

But enough side-tracking on my part. Back to the regular programming, folks!

 

[JGMendes4049]

My Lord, you are an “independent Catholic?” Would you please explain further?

Dr. Manley is not in communion with the Holy Father.

 

[John_of_Patmos]

Thank you for the clarification, 5Loaves. I do understand that there technically is no “Anglican Ordinary”; I was pressed for time, and merely using shorthand.

As for Lutherans not entering via the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter there is indeed a group that, to my knowledge, is being received into Catholicism via the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. I am thinking, of course, of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholics:
anglolutherancatholic.org/anglican-ordinariate/

So if this group is being received this way, in theory it could be possible that in the future such Lutheran communities could be received in similar manner.

But enough side-tracking on my part. Back to the regular programming, folks!

WAIT!!! Did the ALCC join the Catholic Church? Did I understand that right? Not just a few parishes, but the whole ALCC?

 

[The_Scott]

WAIT!!! Did the ALCC join the Catholic Church? Did I understand that right? Not just a few parishes, but the whole ALCC?

It appears so.

 

[John_of_Patmos]

it appears so.

yes!!!

 

[YoungTradCath]

Dr. Manley is not in communion with the Holy Father.

I was thinking that.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

My Lord, you are an “independent Catholic?” Would you please explain further?

Here is the website for the Church that he appears to be affiliated with, The Celtic Christian Communion.

If you go to this page, Statement of Beliefs, you will see that not only are they not in communion with the Catholic Church but that they hold to many things that are very unCatholic in nature.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

WAIT!!! Did the ALCC join the Catholic Church? Did I understand that right? Not just a few parishes, but the whole ALCC?

To my knowledge, the whole of the ALCC is entering into the Catholic Church via the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (they need an acronym for this, really ).

 

[John_of_Patmos]

To my knowledge, the whole of the ALCC is entering into the Catholic Church via the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter (they need an acronym for this, really ).

OCST?

 

[puzzleannie]

I was reading about the personal ordinariates and was wondering if the Vatican was thinking about creating a personal ordinariate for Protestants. Lutherans would be the most likely people to join.

probably not since part of the justification for the Anglican reception is that it retains the liturgical worship and concept of priesthood, and sacramental economy, which Lutherans notoriously reject. The division is rooted in the rejection of authority and loss of apostolic succession, whereas for Lutherans and their successors the division is rooted in the concept of the sacrificial priesthood itself.

 

[5Loaves]

As for Lutherans not entering via the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter there is indeed** a group **that, to my knowledge, is being received into Catholicism via the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. I am thinking, of course, of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholics:
anglolutherancatholic.org/anglican-ordinariate/

So if this group is being received this way, in theory it could be possible that in the future such** Lutheran communities** could be received in similar manner.

I misunderstood when you said that “some Lutherans” will be entering via the Ordinariate thinking you meant individuals, so I was clarifying that all individual Christians are received into the Church thru the same process, whatever their baptism.

Thank you for that link

Since its founding in 1997, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church has been committed to the reunion of Christ’s Church, working to make the visible corporate unity of all Christians in full communion with the Bishop and Church of Rome a lived reality once again…in** May of 2009, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church filed a formal petition to the President of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity to enter the Roman Catholic Church.**…This petition was promptly forwarded to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith…

In October of 2010, the ALCC received a letter of instruction directing it to enter the Catholic Church “through the provisions of Anglicanorum coetibus… The ALCC promptly sent an official letter to the Cardinal asking to start that process, which is now under way…

I was unaware of both this new body, the ALCC, and of their petition to the Holy See. Being a sacramental liturgical ecclesial community like the Anglicans it isn’t really a surprise Anglicanorum coetibus was recommended by the Cardinal Wuerl, although I’m quite sure I’ve heard the question asked on Catholic radio about any provisions for Lutherans and not heard this response. Everything related to the Personal Ordinariate has spoken of Anglicans. So I’m glad you’ve made me, us, aware of this Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church’s action, and the response by Rome, thus far. They don’t appear to be as far along as the Anglicans who as of two days ago have clergy in training to become Catholic priests , and of course the Anglican priest who is now the Ordinary for the Ordinariate, Fr. Jeffrey Steenson, who I’m quite taken with and definitely am praying for him in his historic role. (I was baptized and confirmed Anglican and have a very soft spot in my heart for that patrimony. Of course the Anglican Church in the 1950s of my happy years there was quite a different situation from the contemporary Anglican parish where I received my sacraments those many decades ago.)

 

[5Loaves]

I was reading about the personal ordinariates and was wondering if the Vatican was thinking about creating a personal ordinariate for Protestants. Lutherans would be the most likely people to join.

Apparently it is being offered for some Lutherans. I was unaware of this before someone brought up this site in a thread on the EC section:

Since its founding in 1997, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church has been committed to the reunion of Christ’s Church, working to make the visible corporate unity of all Christians in full communion with the Bishop and Church of Rome a lived reality once again…in** May of 2009, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church filed a formal petition to the President of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity to enter the Roman Catholic Church**…This petition was promptly forwarded to the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith…

In October of 2010, the ALCC received a letter of instruction directing it to enter the Catholic Church “through the provisions of Anglicanorum coetibus…. The ALCC promptly sent an official letter to the Cardinal asking to start **that process, which is now under way…
**

I was unaware of both this new body, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church, and of their petition to the Holy See. Being a sacramental liturgical ecclesial community like the Anglicans it isn’t entirely a surprise Anglicanorum coetibus was recommended by the Cardinal Wuerl for this Lutheran ecclesial community, although I’m quite sure I’ve heard the question asked on Catholic radio about any provisions for Lutherans and not heard this response. Everything related to the Personal Ordinariate has spoken of Anglicans. I’m glad we were made aware of this Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church’s action, and the response by Rome, thus far. They don’t appear to be as far along as the Anglicans who as of two days ago have clergy in training to become Catholic priests , and of course the former Anglican bishop who is now the Ordinary for the Ordinariate, Fr. Jeffrey Steenson, who I’m quite taken with and definitely am praying for him in his historic role.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I misunderstood when you said that “some Lutherans” will be entering via the Ordinariate thinking you meant individuals, so I was clarifying that all individual Christians are received into the Church thru the same process, whatever their baptism.

Thank you for that link

I was unaware of both this new body, the ALCC, and of their petition to the Holy See. Being a sacramental liturgical ecclesial community like the Anglicans it isn’t really a surprise Anglicanorum coetibus was recommended by the Cardinal Wuerl, although I’m quite sure I’ve heard the question asked on Catholic radio about any provisions for Lutherans and not heard this response. Everything related to the Personal Ordinariate has spoken of Anglicans. So I’m glad you’ve made me, us, aware of this Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church’s action, and the response by Rome, thus far. They don’t appear to be as far along as the Anglicans who as of two days ago have clergy in training to become Catholic priests , and of course the Anglican priest who is now the Ordinary for the Ordinariate, Fr. Jeffrey Steenson, who I’m quite taken with and definitely am praying for him in his historic role. (I was baptized and confirmed Anglican and have a very soft spot in my heart for that patrimony. Of course the Anglican Church in the 1950s of my happy years there was quite a different situation from the contemporary Anglican parish where I received my sacraments those many decades ago.)

I’ve corresponded with the Metropolitan of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church and he is a most sincere man! They already have pictures of the Pope up in their parishes and are indistinguishable from any Latin Rite parish (apart from the obvious fact that they are not yet in full union with Rome). Their Lutheranism is a “cultural Lutheranism” - for example, all the candles of the advent wreath are red etc. I don’t pretend to be familiar with any of this!

There are also several other small High Lutheran bodies, independent of mainstream Lutheranism, that are in the same boat and will enter the Catholic Church via the Ordinariates.

At the same time, I understand that in some areas, my own in particular, Anglicans wishing to come into the Catholic Church are not happy with the slowness of the process - they don’t know what the hold-up is. Perhaps the local RC authorities have an issue with adding yet another liturgical usage to their roster? What say ye? What could be the problem here?

Alex

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I misunderstood when you said that “some Lutherans” will be entering via the Ordinariate thinking you meant individuals, so I was clarifying that all individual Christians are received into the Church thru the same process, whatever their baptism.

Thank you for that link

I was unaware of both this new body, the ALCC, and of their petition to the Holy See. Being a sacramental liturgical ecclesial community like the Anglicans it isn’t really a surprise Anglicanorum coetibus was recommended by the Cardinal Wuerl, although I’m quite sure I’ve heard the question asked on Catholic radio about any provisions for Lutherans and not heard this response. Everything related to the Personal Ordinariate has spoken of Anglicans. So I’m glad you’ve made me, us, aware of this Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church’s action, and the response by Rome, thus far. They don’t appear to be as far along as the Anglicans who as of two days ago have clergy in training to become Catholic priests , and of course the Anglican priest who is now the Ordinary for the Ordinariate, Fr. Jeffrey Steenson, who I’m quite taken with and definitely am praying for him in his historic role. (I was baptized and confirmed Anglican and have a very soft spot in my heart for that patrimony. Of course the Anglican Church in the 1950s of my happy years there was quite a different situation from the contemporary Anglican parish where I received my sacraments those many decades ago.)

I’ve corresponded with the Metropolitan of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church and he is a most sincere man! They already have pictures of the Pope up in their parishes and are indistinguishable from any Latin Rite parish (apart from the obvious fact that they are not yet in full union with Rome). Their Lutheranism is a “cultural Lutheranism” - for example, all the candles of the advent wreath are red etc. I don’t pretend to be familiar with any of this!

There are also several other small High Lutheran bodies, independent of mainstream Lutheranism, that are in the same boat and will enter the Catholic Church via the Ordinariates.

At the same time, I understand that in some areas, my own in particular, Anglicans wishing to come into the Catholic Church are not happy with the slowness of the process - they don’t know what the hold-up is. Perhaps the local RC authorities have an issue with adding yet another liturgical usage to their roster? What say ye? What could be the problem here?

Alex

5Loaves- I am glad I cleared things up. I, too, have a soft spot for Anglican patrimony (which is kind of ironic, considering I’ve never attended any Anglican/Episcopal service). I hate being a broken record, but traditional Anglican patrimony reminds me a lot of the Lutheran services of my childhood. You’ll see the similarities, I’m sure:
stpeterslcms.com/Documents/Setting3.pdf

Of course Lutherans and Anglicans have been shamelessly stealing… er, sharing, hymns and liturgical rubrics for centuries now.

Alex- My guess is as good as yours as to the speed of such thing. Personally, I’m blaming bureaucracy
And as for “cultural Lutheranism”- that could mean a lot of things. There are differences in traditions between, say, German and Swedish Lutherans. That is why it is such a scandal when the two intermarry
Personally, I grew up with multi-colored Advent candles.

 

[5Loaves]

At the same time, I understand that in some areas, my own in particular, Anglicans wishing to come into the Catholic Church are not happy with the slowness of the process - they don’t know what the hold-up is. Perhaps the local RC authorities have an issue with adding yet another liturgical usage to their roster? What say ye? What could be the problem here?

Alex

Any Christian wishing to be received into the Catholic Church need only go through enough catechesis to be clear they understand what the Church teaches when they make their profession of faith and are received into the Church by their profession of faith, Laying on of Hands and Anointing with Chrism in the Rite of Reception of Baptized Christians into the full Communion of the Catholic Church, during any Mass, Sundays or weekdays, and with special provision this can even happen outside of a Mass. I, former Episcopalian, was received into the Church in a weekday Mass. We have receptions of Christians in my Latin Church parish whenever the Candidate is found to be ready, usually the Rite of Reception happens several times each year, again dictated by an individual Christian being ready to be received.,

I sympathize with and am grateful for their eagerness to come into full communion but if those who prefer to wait and come into the Church* as a parish* are thinking that the apostolic constitution Anglicanorum coetibus establishing these new personal ordinariates has been a slow process, they may not be ready to come into the Church. A change of this magnitude happening this quickly I find quite amazing. They may discover once in the Church they had no idea how different the Catholic Church’s synodal structure really is compared to the many rather autonomous “Anglican” and “Episcopal” churches there are coming up with their own decisions.

Standing from inside the Church these changes seem to be happening with remarkable speed.

May we all keep these individuals and communities in our prayers during this challenging time, especially their ordinary, Fr. Jeffrey Steenson. I don’t know when he finds time to sleep-- everyone and his cousin has been interviewing him (and he is wonderful in these interviews), not to mention the pastoral tasks of the office.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Any Christian wishing to be received into the Catholic Church need only go through enough catechesis to be clear they understand what the Church teaches when they make their profession of faith and are received into the Church by their profession of faith, Laying on of Hands and Anointing with Chrism in the Rite of Reception of Baptized Christians into the full Communion of the Catholic Church, during any Mass, Sundays or weekdays, and with special provision this can even happen outside of a Mass. I, former Episcopalian, was received into the Church in a weekday Mass. We have receptions of Christians in my Latin Church parish whenever the Candidate is found to be ready, usually the Rite of Reception happens several times each year, again dictated by an individual Christian being ready to be received.,

I sympathize with and am grateful for their eagerness to come into full communion but if those who prefer to wait and come into the Church* as a parish* are thinking that the apostolic constitution Anglicanorum coetibus establishing these new personal ordinariates has been a slow process, they may not be ready to come into the Church. A change of this magnitude happening this quickly I find quite amazing. They may discover once in the Church they had no idea how different the Catholic Church’s synodal structure really is compared to the many rather autonomous “Anglican” and “Episcopal” churches there are coming up with their own decisions.

Standing from inside the Church these changes seem to be happening with remarkable speed.

May we all keep these individuals and communities in our prayers during this challenging time, especially their ordinary, Fr. Jeffrey Steenson. I don’t know when he finds time to sleep-- everyone and his cousin has been interviewing him (and he is wonderful in these interviews), not to mention the pastoral tasks of the office.

Certainly things are moving quite quickly than compared to previous times. However, I can certainly empathize with them- after all, some of them have been petitioning for years. I see it more as an excited anticipation- they are so filled with joy, they just can’t wait.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

**Moderator Note: **

This discussion on Anglican, Lutheran and Protestant reunion was sufficiently off-topic to create a new thread from it. Please see here for the original discussion about Orthodox and Catholic reunion.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator

 

[5Loaves]

Certainly things are moving quite quickly than compared to previous times. However, I can certainly empathize with them- after all, some of them have been petitioning for years. I see it more as an excited anticipation- they are so filled with joy, they just can’t wait.

I suspect there are those who have been petitioning the Holy See for years on many topics, some or most of which may never be given a thumbs up. Such if the orthodox Catholic Church. My point being you don’t necessarily “get it your way”, unlike what has been the case for some in these ecclesiasial communities for many years now where a group decides to deviate from tradition and soon there is a new “tradition”. This may be one of those places where they do well to consider now how this will be once they are in the Church. It is a very different “culture” from what they have lived with lo these many decades.

As to “filled with joy, they just can’t wait”, again, each one has had the option all along to enter the Church as individuals and for whatever reasons made the choice that they preferred to remain as they were until their whole parish could come in as individuals, but in a parish. The consequence of their choice is they have waited, and thanks be to God the Holy See has made a way that they can do what they want-- come in as individuals in a parish. :clapping: [

Also](http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...r-anglicans-can-join-ordinariate-says-bishop/)

[Auxiliary Bishop Alan Hopes of Westminster] has confirmed that Anglicans who were received into the Catholic Church years ago can join the personal ordinariate created by Benedict XVI last year.

And hopeful Anglicans in Canada apparently have much to be hopeful for

The Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter has been asked to coordinate with Cardinal-designate Collins and the local bishop the means for gathering in the Canadian groups that are seeking full communion with the Catholic Church.

On Friday, 1/27, the first group of former Anglican priests began the formation program to be ordained Catholic priests for the ordinariate.

Just this Sunday, 1/22/2012, the clergy and people of Mt. Calvary Church in Baltimore, Maryland were each received into the Church. Wish I could have been there!
I’m happy to see clergy from the Order of Preachers were there.

(Thank you to Catherine for setting this up apart from the thread we were inside so we can continue if we want on this thread, not derailing the other. )

 

[BernadetteM]

As far as I know there has not been any word from Rome regarding the ALCC and its attempt to become part of the Ordinariate.

Except for the above groups, from my understanding most Lutherans are not interested in an Ordinariate.

It seems that in the US Lutheran churches celebrate their liturgy closer to the OF than that of Anglo Catholic parishes, which usually use a missal and follow much closer to the EF form, in English with some prayers in Latin on some Sundays.

I know that many members of TEC would like to see it return to orthodoxy, however, from all appearances this is just a dream. Many have left and formed many different continuing groups who are not in communion with one another.

Hopefully Rome will respond publicly whether the ALCC parishes will be allowed into the Ordinariate established for former Anglicans.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

 

[FrDavid96]

Do you mean the Personal Ordinariate established by HH Benedict XVI, 1/15/2011 in England and Wales and 1/1/2012 in the US?

Individual Anglicans seeking to become Catholic who are not part of an entire Anglican parish seeking to become Catholic together, individual Lutherans and any other Christian individuals come into the Latin Church via RCIA in a local Latin Church parish (or they could be received into the Catholic Church in any Eastern Catholic Church parish as canonically Latin Catholic). In the ordinariate process of course each individual is received into the Catholic Church but they come as an entire parish.

I believe a group of clergy and laity Anglicans was received into the Catholic Church last Easter in the Ordinariate for England and Wales, the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham. Here in the US the first group, Mount Calvary Church in Baltimore, was received this past Sunday, Jan 22 under the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter.

A person who is member of the Lutheran Church cannot be a member of the Anglican Church and so could not come into the Catholic Church with a parish of Anglicans via the Personal Ordinariate.

There is no “Anglican Ordinary” in the Catholic Church. The Ordinary for the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter here in the US is a former Anglican bishop. Father Jeffrey Steenson is an Ordinary who is a priest not a bishop since he is married and married priests cannot be bishops. God grant him many years!

***** I just noticed that today is the day this group of dear men begins their journey towards ordination as Catholic priests. May we keep them in our prayers.

It’s a common mis-reading of the constitution for the Anglican Ordinariates that only communities, and not individuals can join.

Look again at the statement
These ordinariates are new in that they will provide a way for Anglicans to enter the Church in a corporate manner; that is, as a group or community, while also retaining their Anglican heritage and traditions.

It’s not that individuals cannot join. Instead, the fact that communities may join is what is “new” here.

I don’t see how you can say that there is “No Anglican Ordinary in the Catholic Church” and then name the Anglican Ordinary for the US, Father J. S. He is the Ordinary.