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TrueLight
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But do you have to be an Anglican convert?
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FrDavid96
Guest
The short answer is “generally yes” Still, it’s a bit ambiguous.
An Anglican (originally baptised as an Anglican): Yes
A former Catholic returning to the Church: No
A currently practicing Catholic (in good standing) who is a family member of someone in the Ordinariate: Yes
A former Catholic who is a family member of someone in the Ordinariate: Yes
For example: Anglican husband, Catholic wife. Wife left Church after marriage. Whole family wants to return to the Church–yes
As for anyone else, I think the answer is generally a “no.”
For example, a Lutheran or a Methodist or a Buddhist who wants to join would not be eligible.
I don’t see any more specific definition of family member. I suppose it means “same household” since I doubt one could say “my third cousin is already a member of the Ordinariate.” That’s where I see a bit of ambiguity, or perhaps it’s intentional flexibility. If we’re talking about an adult who lives hundreds of miles away but his parents are members of the Ordinariate, I don’t think it would apply. But if they live in the same household, I think it would.
This is what the Complementary Norms have to say
Article 5
§1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite [sic.] register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate.
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20091104_norme-anglicanorum-coetibus_en.html
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BernadetteM
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I believe that any Protestant who wants to convert to the Catholic Church can go through the process in an Anglican Use (Ordinariate parish) and be part of an Ordinariate parish. The Ordinariates are part of the Latin Rite, although their Patrimony is Anglican. Just as any Protestant can become Catholic in one of the Eastern Rite Churches.
The Ordinariates will hopefully be evangelizing others and bringing them into the Church.
As with all new ventures we must wait and see how the details will work out.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
The Ordinariates will hopefully be evangelizing others and bringing them into the Church.
As with all new ventures we must wait and see how the details will work out.
Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary
Bernadette
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FrDavid96
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Only Anglicans can join the Ordinariates–they’re not open to just any non-Catholic who wants to join.
The rules for joining the Ordinariates are found in the Constitution and the Complementary Norms.
Article 5
§1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate.
Please, please, dear posters, read the actual norms for the Ordinariates before posting what you “think” they say.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus_en.html
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20091104_norme-anglicanorum-coetibus_en.html
The rules for joining the Ordinariates are found in the Constitution and the Complementary Norms.
Article 5
§1. The lay faithful originally of the Anglican tradition who wish to belong to the Ordinariate, after having made their Profession of Faith and received the Sacraments of Initiation, with due regard for Canon 845, are to be entered in the apposite register of the Ordinariate. Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate.
Please, please, dear posters, read the actual norms for the Ordinariates before posting what you “think” they say.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_ben-xvi_apc_20091104_anglicanorum-coetibus_en.html
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20091104_norme-anglicanorum-coetibus_en.html
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BernadetteM
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Hopefully this will clarify what Anglicanorum Coetibus says:
Section 1 of Anglicanorum Coetibus
#4 The Ordinariate is composed of lay faithful, clerics anfd members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, originally belonging to the Anglican Communion and now in full communion with the Catholic Church, OR THOSE who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate.
This appears to be opening the door to any non Catholic who wishes to join a parish that is part of the Ordinariate.
From my understanding from a priest entering the Ordinariate, this is what the Church has approved.
God Bless
Bernadette
Section 1 of Anglicanorum Coetibus
#4 The Ordinariate is composed of lay faithful, clerics anfd members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, originally belonging to the Anglican Communion and now in full communion with the Catholic Church, OR THOSE who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate.
This appears to be opening the door to any non Catholic who wishes to join a parish that is part of the Ordinariate.
From my understanding from a priest entering the Ordinariate, this is what the Church has approved.
God Bless
Bernadette
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FrDavid96
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The complementary norms define who is eligible to join: only former Anglicans and their family members are eligible.
Naturally, children born to members of the Ordinariate can be baptised and thereby join the Ordinariate. #4 does not mean that anyone can receive the Sacraments of Initiation in the Ordinariate.
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5Loaves
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Father bless.
Thank you for you clarification.
Isn’t the Ordinary, Fr. Jeffrey N. Steenson, Catholic? If he were an Anglican Ordinary then he wouldn’t be Catholic.
What I actually was referring to in my response to ThatOneGuy92 was that what was “set up by PB16” were/are the “Personal Ordinariates”.
As I think I said a couple of places, in fact every person comes into the Church as an individual. When a community comes into the Church each member comes in as an individual. S/he is ascribed canonically in a Latin Church or in the Latin Church within the Ordinariate depending on her/his choice, but when a group comes in as a parish, or a community, each individual in the parish would go through the rite in the same time and place, making his/her individual profession of faith and individually being anointed and having hands of the ordinary laid on them. Before a few weeks ago, on January 1, 2012, there was no Ordinariate in the US so no individuals or groups would have had that option before then to enter the Ordinariate.
I thought the FAQ I linked to a couple of places gives a pretty clear set of answers to a number of these questions. I’m not sure people have gone there to read those FAQs. Not that we don’t still come away with some confusion.
Perhaps my efforts to try to clarify was not helpful.
I’m glad we were able to move our discussion over here where those like yourself with a better familiarity can assist in our having a clearer understanding.
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5Loaves
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Some may recall in this or another thread on the Ordinariate where a poster in the US told us that their pastor told them they were already in the Ordinariate, and this was prior to the Jan 1, 2012 date when the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter was established. It’s hard to believe people have been catechized about reception into the Church when they think they have been received but there wasn’t any rite-- no profession of Faith, no anointing or laying on of hands. It would seem that clergy as well as us lay folks are on a rather steep learning curve… but an exciting one!
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5Loaves
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A Protestant who is received into the Catholic Church is not received into an Eastern Catholic Church. They may, with permissions, go through the Rite of Reception in a EC parish, but they are received as a Catholic of the Latin Church and the EC parish records would note that in the records. They are free like any other Latin Church Catholic to make a request for a change in canonical enrollment to an Eastern Catholic Church sui iuris. A Catholic of any of the 23 Catholic Churches is free without any permissions needed to worship and receive the Holy Mysteries of Confession and Holy Eucharist in any Catholic Church regardless of what particular Church they are canonically a member.
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BernadetteM
Guest
Without specifics this poster’s comments cannot be verified. All the priests I know are very well informed of the process, maybe it was from a person who was received in one of the 3 parishes in the last few weeks which are part of the Ordinariate. All Anglicans entering the Church have been well catechized by their pastor and a Catholic priest using the materials that Rome has recommended.Some may recall in this or another thread on the Ordinariate where a poster in the US told us that their pastor told them they were already in the Ordinariate, and this was prior to the Jan 1, 2012 date when the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter was established. It’s hard to believe people have been catechized about reception into the Church when they think they have been received but there wasn’t any rite-- no profession of Faith, no anointing or laying on of hands. It would seem that clergy as well as us lay folks are on a rather steep learning curve… but an exciting one!
I will try to be charitable towards those who have very little knowledge of the AC or Ordinariate, however just as Anglican Use parishes have always been allowed to accept Protestants and Confirm them as Anglican Use Catholics in the Latin Rite, the Ordinariate is really in some ways an extension of this (Pastoral Provision) except it has guidelines that protect the Ordinariate from unfriendly Bishops who won’t allow an AU parish in their diocese. It is also worldwide, the US is the second country to have the Ordinariate established and others will follow when Rome decides the time is right.
An Ordinariate is like a diocese, except the Ordinary, unless celibate cannot be made a Bishop. He does have, I believe, voting rights in the Bishop’s Conference and can wear the Miter and other garments that Bishops wear or carry. He cannot ordain priests, unless he is a Bishop.
I know this is all very confusing in the beginning, but as time goes by more and more Catholics whether laypersons or clergy will have a better understanding of what our Holy Father intends the Ordinariates to be.
God Bless
Bernadette
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BernadetteM
Guest
On a side note, the road these former Anglicans have had to travel into the Church has been very difficult. They have been persecuted by many Anglican groups for leaving for Rome and called names that all Catholics are familiar with.
There have also been some very unkind words from Catholics towards them. Not many, but enough to make one wonder why do I want to enter a church where people don’t want me.
On the whole Catholics have been very supportive and many very involved with some of the groups entering.
There has been much misunderstanding from all regarding the Ordinariate and from those they are leaving behind, distortions regarding the reasons they are leaving and becoming Catholics. Many have lost friends and family, especially the priests.
I would pray that we Catholics open our hearts and welcome them as brothers and sisters with the charity that our Lord would desire for those who were lost and are now found.
God Bless
Bernadette
There have also been some very unkind words from Catholics towards them. Not many, but enough to make one wonder why do I want to enter a church where people don’t want me.
On the whole Catholics have been very supportive and many very involved with some of the groups entering.
There has been much misunderstanding from all regarding the Ordinariate and from those they are leaving behind, distortions regarding the reasons they are leaving and becoming Catholics. Many have lost friends and family, especially the priests.
I would pray that we Catholics open our hearts and welcome them as brothers and sisters with the charity that our Lord would desire for those who were lost and are now found.
God Bless
Bernadette
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5Loaves
Guest
So looking back at the posts it is friends of the poster telling this poster that poster, a Catholic, can receive Eucharist in friends’ church because they “have been accepted by Rome as part of the Ordinate”, again this was occurring prior to Jan 1st.
Second/third hand and who know why these friends claimed a Catholic could receive in “her Anglican church”. I was misremembering that it was a parishioner posting. It is parishioners insisting to the poster that their Anglican parish is in the Ordinariate and poster should come have Eucharist in their parish. Sounds like a variety of agenda’s going on.
From my years with Anglicans and what I have read I certainly expect the priests and the congregations to have been well catechized. The situation in the post I referred to and quote seems quite muddled.
Father Jeffrey Steenson seems a truly gifted priest. I’ve tried to follow his various interviews and statements these past weeks since he was appointed ordinary. I can’t imagine a better shepherd! I expect the parish priests are likewise very special men.
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FrDavid96
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Now I see what you mean. At least I think I do.
We need a whole new set of vocabulary here, now that the Ordinariates are a reality. The distinctions made by our previous vocabulary just don’t function anymore.
Yes, Father J.S. is an Anglican. Yes, Father J.S. is a Catholic. Yes, he is an Ordinary. All of those statements are true.
He is the Ordinary for the Anglican Catholic Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter.
He is no longer an Anglican ordinary in the sense of being a “bishop” within the body known as the Anglican Communion. I think that’s what you’re getting at when you say that he’s no longer an Anglican?
We need some new vocabulary to express the idea of being both Anglican and Catholic since such a reality has not existed since the time of Henry VIII (except for the few Pastoral Provision parishes/persons).
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FrDavid96
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What you don’t understand is the whole concept of personal parishes and personal ordinariates.
An ordinariate is juridically equivalent to a diocese, but there are still differences. These differences go far beyond just the fact that the ordinary may be either a bishop or priest. The only people who can join an ordinariate are those who fit the pre-defined criteria for membership. An ordinariate cannot bring in new members from beyond the community that it was established to serve.
Only former Anglicans and their family members are eligible for the ordinariates in the first place, so these are the only people who can be received into it. Other protestants (like Lutherans or Methodists) are not able to join the ordinariates.
Let’s look at a parallel example. In the US, we now have the Archdiocese fo the Military. Until a few decades ago, this was the military ordinariate. It was established to serve a specific group of people. A person who had no connection to the military could not just approach a priest (ie a military chaplain) and say “I would like to join” and be eligible to join the military ordinariate. That person would have to be referred to his own local pastor of the diocese where he lived.
It’s the same with the Anglican Catholic ordinariates. Membership here is not open to anyone who wishes to join. This is clearly laid out in canon law (where the code defines personal ordinariates and personal parishes) and it’s laid out in the Apostolic Constitution and the Complementary Norms (although “family member” is a bit ambiguous).
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BernadetteM
Guest
I thought it might be best to clarify a point regarding Protestans entering the Catholic Church and becoming a member of the Ordinariate.
I spoke to one of the priests who attended the retreat for those priests entering the Ordinariate. The Ordinary, Fr. Steenson and Fr. Hurd, the VG were there explaining the finer details.
Fr. Hurd stated that just as any other Latin Rite parish, any Protestand or non Christian who desires to become Catholic, may enter the Catholic Church through any of the Ordinariate and Anglican Use parishes and any parish belonging to the Ordinariate, those who come in through it will be considered part of the Ordinariate.
I suppose if one has any questions they should contact Fr. Hurd.
I know this is confusing for many as the Ordinariates are very new and all the details have not been stated and many probably have not been sorted out.
God Bless
Bernadette
I spoke to one of the priests who attended the retreat for those priests entering the Ordinariate. The Ordinary, Fr. Steenson and Fr. Hurd, the VG were there explaining the finer details.
Fr. Hurd stated that just as any other Latin Rite parish, any Protestand or non Christian who desires to become Catholic, may enter the Catholic Church through any of the Ordinariate and Anglican Use parishes and any parish belonging to the Ordinariate, those who come in through it will be considered part of the Ordinariate.
I suppose if one has any questions they should contact Fr. Hurd.
I know this is confusing for many as the Ordinariates are very new and all the details have not been stated and many probably have not been sorted out.
God Bless
Bernadette
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FrDavid96
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Bernadette,
You are not clarifying a point. You are passing along misinformation.
Either you misunderstood Father H’s answer or you misunderstood the question. He might have been answering the question from a certain perspective (like “may the Anglican Catholic priests confirm new members?”).
What you do still do not see here is that the norms governing a personal Ordinariate are not based on things you read on the internet and they’re not based on casual questions and answers.
The Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus, the Complementary Norms and the Code of Canon Law govern who can be a member of the Ordinariate. I do not know why you will not accept this?
The “details” that you claim have “not been sorted out” have been sorted. You just don’t want to accept them.
You keep posting information that misleads people (who might be reading but not posting), because you do not understand how personal parishes and personal Ordinariates function. This is clearly defined in the Code of Canon Law.
I have been a pastor for a personal parish. I don’t just read about it on the internet. I can assure you, without any hesitation, that I know it to be absolutely correct that when personal parishes are established, they are limited to those people for whom they were established, and others outside of that pre-defined group are not eligible for membership.
The same applies to the Anglican Ordinariates. Only those who are actually eligible for membership may join. This includes former Anglicans and their families. Those who have no connection to Anglicanism are not eligible. It isn’t helping when you repeatedly post here that they are eligible. Extending that eligibility to non-Anglicans is something that can only happen if the Pope decides to change the eligibility requirements—but we can only speculate as to “if” this might ever happen.
I suggest you go to this site:
usordinariate.org/resources.html
There you will find many resources, All of them clearly stating that only Anglicans and their family members are eligible for membership in the Ordinariate.
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liturgyluver
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I understand the eligibility point, but I am right in thinking that us Catholics can attend and worship at Ordinariate services? The liturgy and music are so much richer.
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FrDavid96
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jordananglo
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Fr. David, I am chiming in the respectfully disagree with you, and to agree with Bernadette.
According to the Apostolic Constitution you refer to - and I think Bernedette also makes this point,
§4 The Ordinariate is composed of lay faithful, clerics and members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, originally belonging to the Anglican Communion and now in full communion with the Catholic Church, or those who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate.
While it is true that the CNs say “Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate.”, the prior law clarifies that those - not presently Catholic - who wish to receive the sacraments of intiation within the Ordinariate, can belong to the Ordinariate.
In other words, the plain reading of the law would say that (for example) a Lutheran that converted yesterday to the Catholic Church via their parish church would not be eligible to belong the Ordinariate, but a Lutheran who enters converts into the Catholic Church via the Ordinariate in six months would be able to belong as a formal member.
I have not seen anything from the leadership of the Ordinariate that contradicts this.
If it were true that the Ordinariate would have to send others away that want to become Catholics via that parish, then it would be unevangelical - “sorry, you can’t belong here, not the right pedigree, you know”. Besides, the existing Anglican Use parishes are stuffed full of people that have never walked into an Episcopal church.
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dans0622
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Hello jordananglo,
Maybe you know this but to “receive the Sacraments of Initiation” means to receive all three of these Sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, and first Communion, not just confirmation and/or first Communion.
Anyone already baptized as a non-Catholic or a non-Anglican is not seen as being eligible for membership in the Ordinariate. This Ordinariate was established for Anglicans who want to be in union with the Catholic Church and, “extraordinarily,” Catholics who have family members who are Anglican. Everyone else who is baptized and wants to be in union with the Catholic Church is to follow the RCIA program at the local parish.
Thanks for your time.
Dan
P.S. FrDavid96, I agree with you for a change.
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