Anglican Ordinariate, Lutherans, and Protestant Reunion

[jordananglo]

Hello jordananglo,

Maybe you know this but to “receive the Sacraments of Initiation” means to receive all three of these Sacraments: Baptism, Confirmation, and first Communion, not just confirmation and/or first Communion.

Anyone already baptized as a non-Catholic or a non-Anglican is not seen as being eligible for membership in the Ordinariate. This Ordinariate was established for Anglicans who want to be in union with the Catholic Church and, “extraordinarily,” Catholics who have family members who are Anglican. Everyone else who is baptized and wants to be in union with the Catholic Church is to follow the RCIA program at the local parish.

Thanks for your time.
Dan

P.S. FrDavid96, I agree with you for a change.

Hello Dan,

By this reasoning, if a protestant really wanted to be a member of the Ordinariate, he would first have to formally become an Episcopalian, or continuing Anglican, and then apply for membership in the Ordinariate after converting to the Catholic Church. This is crazy!

By the way, this is not an academic discussion - I know of people in this situation.

 

[ProVobis]

Catholics getting the protestants back is sort of unrealistic. Just saying. We cannot accomadate them theolgically. They must join us.

The female pastors obviously can not. I happen to share a lot of emails with such an Anglican minister in the U.K. who actually does a very good job at explaining things and gives good sermons. She works as a volunteer and will probably never step down. I only pray with her in an ecumenical spirit, though, and I think she knows this.

 

[FrDavid96]

Fr. David, I am chiming in the respectfully disagree with you, and to agree with Bernadette.

According to the Apostolic Constitution you refer to - and I think Bernedette also makes this point,

§4 The Ordinariate is composed of lay faithful, clerics and members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, originally belonging to the Anglican Communion and now in full communion with the Catholic Church, or those who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate.

While it is true that the CNs say “Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate.”, the prior law clarifies that those - not presently Catholic - who wish to receive the sacraments of intiation within the Ordinariate, can belong to the Ordinariate.

In other words, the plain reading of the law would say that (for example) a Lutheran that converted yesterday to the Catholic Church via their parish church would not be eligible to belong the Ordinariate, but a Lutheran who enters converts into the Catholic Church via the Ordinariate in six months would be able to belong as a formal member.

I have not seen anything from the leadership of the Ordinariate that contradicts this.

If it were true that the Ordinariate would have to send others away that want to become Catholics via that parish, then it would be unevangelical - “sorry, you can’t belong here, not the right pedigree, you know”. Besides, the existing Anglican Use parishes are stuffed full of people that have never walked into an Episcopal church.

You’re misreading what the law says. When the law refers to “those who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate” that does not mean that anyone is thereby eligible to join. What it means is that (for example) if a married couple who are members of the Ordinariate have a child, that child receives the Sacraments of Initiation and is thereby a member.

It is a mis-reading of the law to say that since the law makes provisions for people to receive the Sacraments within the Ordinariate, therefore anyone can do this. That’s attaching a meaning to the law which is simply not there.

The other key words here are “within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate.” That’s a very important part of the sentence that people won’t catch unless they understand a little about canon law. In order for a priest to administer the Sacraments of Initiation, that priest must first have jurisdiction over the person. Priests of the Ordinariate only have jurisdiction over the people defined as eligible for the Ordinariate.

The first question must be “is this person eligible to join the Ordinariate?” only if that is answered with a “yes” can we go further to the next step of actually administering those Sacraments. Of course, danger of death or other extreme circumstances excepted.

Again, I would refer people to the website of the Ordinariate. When you read the documents that are posted, the Apostolic Constitution, the Complementary Norms, the Pastoral Letter from the new Ordinary, and even the decree establishing the Ordinariate, all of them state that the purpose of the Ordinariate is to accept Anglicans (and their families) into the Church. Someone who is not an Anglican, and who has no connection to Anglicanism simply is not eligible to join the Ordinariate.

 

[FrDavid96]

Hello Dan,

By this reasoning, if a protestant really wanted to be a member of the Ordinariate, he would first have to formally become an Episcopalian, or continuing Anglican, and then apply for membership in the Ordinariate after converting to the Catholic Church. This is crazy!

By the way, this is not an academic discussion - I know of people in this situation.

It’s not crazy at all.

The whole purpose of the Ordinariates is to bring Anglicans back into the Church.

It is not the intended purpose of the Ordinariate to bring other non-Catholics into the Church. This is certainly part of the overall mission of the Church, but it’s not the purpose of the Ordinariates.

That’s what some people are missing. It’s not the intention here to bring in Lutherans (since that’s the topic of this thread) or other Protestants through the Ordinariate. So to call something “crazy” just because it’s not intended doesn’t really make much sense.

 

[FrDavid96]

…

P.S. FrDavid96, I agree with you for a change.

I think we agree more than you might realize.

If only I could convince you of that.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

It’s not crazy at all.

The whole purpose of the Ordinariates is to bring Anglicans back into the Church.

It is not the intended purpose of the Ordinariate to bring other non-Catholics into the Church. This is certainly part of the overall mission of the Church, but it’s not the purpose of the Ordinariates.

That’s what some people are missing. It’s not the intention here to bring in Lutherans (since that’s the topic of this thread) or other Protestants through the Ordinariate. So to call something “crazy” just because it’s not intended doesn’t really make much sense.

Father-
To go back the the whole “Lutheran” issue:
I am not saying that all Lutherans can be received in this manner. Rather, I was merely pointing out that a certain Lutheran community- the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church- petitioned to be received into the Catholic Church, and the response given was that they were going to be received via the Ordinariate. This is what their official website says, and I have no reason to disbelieve it.

Thus, in this particular case, those who are members of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church are being received in the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. As for others, I have no idea.

I apologize if this confused anyone.

 

[FrDavid96]

Father-
To go back the the whole “Lutheran” issue:
I am not saying that all Lutherans can be received in this manner. Rather, I was merely pointing out that a certain Lutheran community- the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church- petitioned to be received into the Catholic Church, and the response given was that they were going to be received via the Ordinariate. This is what their official website says, and I have no reason to disbelieve it.

Thus, in this particular case, those who are members of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church are being received in the Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter. As for others, I have no idea.

I apologize if this confused anyone.

Just to clarify here.

This particular community sent a petition to Rome. That petition was referred to the new Ordinary, Father S----.

The petition was sent to him. That’s not the same thing as saying that he accepted their petition. Important point.

Whether or not he will remains to be seen.

anglolutherancatholic.org/anglican-ordinariate/

This is a community that claims to be both Lutheran and Anglican. So at least from their own perspective, they are Anglican.

The question though is: do they meet the definition of “Anglican” as the new Ordinary sees it? I do not want to speculate either way here; but I do not see it as a simple “given” that they are Anglican according to the intention of the Apostolic Constitution. Let me repeat, I am not saying that they “are” or they “are not.” I am saying that this is something the new Ordinary is going to have to decide.

I realize that in your own post you had a particular community in mind–the ALCC. However, other posters who do not understand how personal parishes and personal prelatures (ordinariates) actually function are engaging in guesswork and posting information that is simply not correct and can mislead people into thinking that they are eligible for the Ordinariate when they are not eligible.

 

[FrDavid96]

I need to add to my last post that I’m referring to information as it is currently posted on the website.

There is no information posted there as to whether or not their petition has been accepted.

 

[5Loaves]

Historic Mass of Institution for newly created Catholic Ordinariate on Feb. 12

Historic Mass of Institution for newly created Catholic Ordinariate on Feb. 12
Cardinals Donald Wuerl and Daniel DiNardo and ten other bishops from across the nation will join Rev. Jeffrey N. Steenson for an historic Mass of Institution for the Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter (www.usordinariate.org):

Sunday, Feb. 12 3 p.m.
Co-Cathedral of the Sacred Heart
1111 St. Joseph Parkway, Houston, TX

Glory to God for all things!
How lovely that this falls on the Sunday of the Prodigal Son in the Lenten Triodion for us Eastern Catholics on the Julian Calendar. We are all prodigal sons. May we humbly join in praising God on this joyous occasion. He is ever running out to meet us.

Litya (from the Lenten Triodion)
Like the Prodigal Son, I too have returned
after spending my whole life away from home.
I have scattered the wealth that You gave me, merciful Father.
Accept me as I repent, O God, and have mercy on me!

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

I need to add to my last post that I’m referring to information as it is currently posted on the website.

There is no information posted there as to whether or not their petition has been accepted.

Thank you for the clarification. If in some manner I came across as rude or uncharitable, my apologies, Father.

 

[FrDavid96]

Thank you for the clarification. If in some manner I came across as rude or uncharitable, my apologies, Father.

No. I did not at all think you were being rude of uncharitable. Not one bit.

It’s just that when I read their website, it comes across as a “done deal” that they are coming into the Ordinariate. Only after looking at it more closely do I realize that’s not the case.

From your posts, I got the impression that you read it the same way I did at first (as in “done”). Not hard to think that others would as well, so I wanted to point it out to everyone reading that they have sent the petition to the Ordinary, however there’s nothing stating that it’s been accepted.

There is nothing on the webpage that says they’ve been accepted or not. Maybe the webpage needs to be updated? I just want to caution here that I don’t know anything more than what I, and everyone else, can read on their pages.

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

No. I did not at all think you were being rude of uncharitable. Not one bit.

It’s just that when I read their website, it comes across as a “done deal” that they are coming into the Ordinariate. Only after looking at it more closely do I realize that’s not the case.

From your posts, I got the impression that you read it the same way I did at first (as in “done”). Not hard to think that others would as well, so I wanted to point it out to everyone reading that they have sent the petition to the Ordinary, however there’s nothing stating that it’s been accepted.

There is nothing on the webpage that says they’ve been accepted or not. Maybe the webpage needs to be updated? I just want to caution here that I don’t know anything more than what I, and everyone else, can read on their pages.

Indeed. The deal hasn’t been sealed, as they say. Who knows? All I know is that they are bent on entering the Catholic Church, and that they will be received, one way or another.