Anglican Use Liturgy

[malphono]

A simple phone call is not quite sufficient. Actual, physical documentation is necessary. That is why, rather than be speculative on who can do what and when, it is better to have a physical, authoritative document from the Holy See to clarify things.

Of course I don’t know the details, but once the provisions or Anglicanorum Coetibus are implemented, and the Ordinariates established, there will most likely be more definitive rules on this. But the current circumstances are not that, and as I said in my earlier post, I really do doubt that there is an “authoritative” document on the matter of whether a local ordinary can grant even temporary faculties to a non-AU priest to celebrate in the AU. It would seem to be “yes” else the AU priest could never be absent from his parish or could never get sick. In any case, though, the answer to the question really does lie with the AU parishes and the few dioceses that host them. The bishops and VGs of those diocese will know if they are able to grant such faculties and under what conditions. Maybe I’m wrong, but I have a feeling that Fr Phillips would answer the question verbally (or provisionally by email) since he has most likely been been involved, but would then refer it to the chancery for a final “official” response.

 

[BernadetteM]

A simple phone call is not quite sufficient. Actual, physical documentation is necessary. That is why, rather than be speculative on who can do what and when, it is better to have a physical, authoritative document from the Holy See to clarify things.

That is why I suggested going to Fr. Phillips who can clarify if there is a document or to whom one should contact in Rome to get the information. It is always best to go to the highest level in the Church to get the correct answer.

I do know that one Anglican Use priest is the Pastor of a parish which is a combination of two different congregations, now they are one and he celebrates both the Anglican Use liturgy and the OF liturgy. I would expect that his Bishop placed him in that parish. It seems likely that the Holy See is well aware of this parish.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[malphono]

I suggested in a previous post that Fr. David contact Fr. Phillips at Our Lady of the Atonement Church, as he is in contact with at least one Cardinal in Rome and of all the priests I believe he would be able answer his question. Apparently Fr. David has not been able to contact Fr. Phillips.

God Bless

Bernadette

Yes, I remember. And that’s why I reiterated it (actually reiterated it a second time). For the moment (i.e. absent full implementation of Anglicanorum Coetibus and the establishment of the Ordinatiates), I really do believe that Fr David will only get a definitive answer to his query by going that route.

 

[Like]

That is why I suggested going to Fr. Phillips who can clarify if there is a document or to whom one should contact in Rome to get the information. It is always best to go to the highest level in the Church to get the correct answer.

I do know that one Anglican Use priest is the Pastor of a parish which is a combination of two different congregations, now they are one and he celebrates both the Anglican Use liturgy and the OF liturgy. I would expect that his Bishop placed him in that parish. It seems likely that the Holy See is well aware of this parish.

God Bless

Bernadette

I could be wrong on this, but I read Fr. David’s request as… " Can a Latin rite priest say the Anglican Use Mass in any parish (Latin rite Church)".
Fr. David, please advise if I am correct or not.
Thank you!

 

[FrDavid96]

I could be wrong on this, but I read Fr. David’s request as… " Can a Latin rite priest say the Anglican Use Mass in any parish (Latin rite Church)".
Fr. David, please advise if I am correct or not.
Thank you!

No. That’s not what I’m asking.
I’m not asking about location.

I’m asking what I posted a while back and keep repeating:

One more time.

1 I’m asking for information as to: under what conditions the local bishop can grant to “any” priest the faculties to celebrate the Anglican form? I’m looking for concrete information here, not speculation.

2 The related question is: under what conditions can a Latin Rite priest celebrate according to the Anglican form? Again, not speculation but facts. In this context, I mean without the explicit permission of the bishop from question 1.

I do not know the answer to either of those questions, and I’m asking if anyone here does know. I’m asking if anyone knows it as fact, not speculation, not rumor, not someone’s opinion, not someone’s weblog, not someone’s best guess. I’m looking for actual documentation from the Church that answers either or both questions.

 

[FrDavid96]

Of course I don’t know the details, but once the provisions or Anglicanorum Coetibus are implemented, and the Ordinariates established, there will most likely be more definitive rules on this. But the current circumstances are not that, and as I said in my earlier post, I really do doubt that there is an “authoritative” document on the matter of whether a local ordinary can grant even temporary faculties to a non-AU priest to celebrate in the AU. It would seem to be “yes” else the AU priest could never be absent from his parish or could never get sick. In any case, though, the answer to the question really does lie with the AU parishes and the few dioceses that host them. The bishops and VGs of those diocese will know if they are able to grant such faculties and under what conditions. Maybe I’m wrong, but I have a feeling that Fr Phillips would answer the question verbally (or provisionally by email) since he has most likely been been involved, but would then refer it to the chancery for a final “official” response.

But, you see, I don’t want to bother people who have much better things to do, with my little personal questions. Here on CAF, if people are participating, that’s fine because if they didn’t want to participate in the discussion, they wouldn’t be here. But to call someone on the phone and interrupt his ministry because some stranger is “just curious about something” is going too far.

If posters here do not know the answer, that’s fine. I’ll stand-by and wait to see if anyone who does know the answer happens upon this thread and offers it.

 

[Like]

No. That’s not what I’m asking.
I’m not asking about location.

I’m asking what I posted a while back and keep repeating:

I am sorry Father, I don’t know the answer.

 

[MarkBrown]

One more time.

1 I’m asking for information as to: under what conditions the local bishop can grant to “any” priest the faculties to celebrate the Anglican form? I’m looking for concrete information here, not speculation.

2 The related question is: under what conditions can a Latin Rite priest celebrate according to the Anglican form? Again, not speculation but facts. In this context, I mean without the explicit permission of the bishop from question 1.

I do not know the answer to either of those questions, and I’m asking if anyone here does know. I’m asking if anyone knows it as fact, not speculation, not rumor, not someone’s opinion, not someone’s weblog, not someone’s best guess. I’m looking for actual documentation from the Church that answers either or both questions.

Fr. David,

Perhaps Article 9 of the Complementary Norms would give you the answer for when the Ordinariate is established. It would appear from the Norms the Ordinary of the Ordinariate and the Ordinary of the Diocese would reach an agreement and then put it in writing for AU priest to be used in the Diocese and for “Latin” priest to be used in the Ordinariate.
So it appears the details have not been completely established.

As to what is the norm now with the AU parishes, I would suggest contacting Fr. Phillips and his Chancellors office. I believe they would have the appropriate documentation, if it exist, to explain how it is done at the present.

It could be possible the same system would be used for the sharing of priest between Dioceses. The parish my wife attends, the priest is incardinated in New Jersey, but is “attached” or “on loan” to the Diocese of Pensacola. He just returned to New Jersey this summer to meet with the Bishop there and to renew the agreement for him to stay.

Again this could possibly be the way of operations once the ordinariate is established. The current situation with AU parishes in Latin Dioceses, I do not know the procedure.
I should be talking with Fr. Phillips this week. If I remember I will ask him about the procedures currently in use. If there are any.

Fr. Mark

 

[BernadetteM]

I contacted Fr. Phillips and this is what he said “There no “documentation from Rome” for this, because it wouldn’t dawn on anyone that it needs documentation. The Anglican Use is part of the Latin Rite, and our liturgy is a variation of the standard liturgy of the Church. There is no specific documentation allowing me to celebrate the Novus Ordo in a neighboring parish, but I doubt anyone would deny that I can”.

If this answer does not satisfy a person I suppose there will never be any in writing. The Pope has given priests the right to celebrate the EF at a parish without the Bishops permission and had to put it in writing because so many Bishops forbid priests from celebrating it. All three of the liturgies are of the Latin Rite and either one accepts the fact that a Catholic priest is allowed to celebrate each form or they don’t. I suppose that would be an individual’s decision that has nothing to do with the Church’s official position.
As I think I mentioned, Fr. Phillips used to celebrate the EF at his parish and now celebrates the Latin Mass each Sunday, which is shown on the web at least in part.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[malphono]

I contacted Fr. Phillips and this is what he said “There no “documentation from Rome” for this, because it wouldn’t dawn on anyone that it needs documentation. The Anglican Use is part of the Latin Rite, and our liturgy is a variation of the standard liturgy of the Church. There is no specific documentation allowing me to celebrate the Novus Ordo in a neighboring parish, but I doubt anyone would deny that I can”.

Very interesting. I happened to speak today with a priest-friend who is a very well respected canon lawyer, and he pretty much the same thing: there is currently no “specific documentation” on the matter other than the “Pastoral Provision” which doesn’t directly mention it. His suggestion was to follow the chain from pastor (which you’ve already done ) to diocesan chancery, and if necessary, to the CDWDS.

I believe that all AU priests have faculties to offer the EF and the Novus Ordo, deriving from the fact that they are (currently, and absent the full implementation of Anglicanorum Coetibus including the establishment of the Ordinariates) incardinated in their host diocese(s) and that the AU is, as Fr Phillips says, merely a variation of the Roman Rite and not a separate Rite unto itself. (If it were a separate Rite, the situation would, as I mentioned much earlier in this thread, be distinctly different.)

 

[FrDavid96]

I contacted Fr. Phillips and this is what he said “There no “documentation from Rome” for this, because it wouldn’t dawn on anyone that it needs documentation. The Anglican Use is part of the Latin Rite, and our liturgy is a variation of the standard liturgy of the Church. There is no specific documentation allowing me to celebrate the Novus Ordo in a neighboring parish, but I doubt anyone would deny that I can”.

If this answer does not satisfy a person I suppose there will never be any in writing. The Pope has given priests the right to celebrate the EF at a parish without the Bishops permission and had to put it in writing because so many Bishops forbid priests from celebrating it. All three of the liturgies are of the Latin Rite and either one accepts the fact that a Catholic priest is allowed to celebrate each form or they don’t. I suppose that would be an individual’s decision that has nothing to do with the Church’s official position.
As I think I mentioned, Fr. Phillips used to celebrate the EF at his parish and now celebrates the Latin Mass each Sunday, which is shown on the web at least in part.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

Bernadette,
I know you’re trying to help, but that’s the opposite of what my question was about. I wasn’t asking about an Anglican-Catholic priest saying the Ordinary (or even Extraordinary) form. I was asking about a Latin-rite priest (one who did not start as an Anglican minister) saying the Anglican use Catholic Mass.

Latin-rite priests cannot simply celebrate the Anglican form anytime we want–there are conditions for using this form. What I am asking (once again) is under what conditions that can happen.

 

[FrDavid96]

One more time.

1 I’m asking for information as to: under what conditions the local bishop can grant to “any” priest the faculties to celebrate the Anglican form? I’m looking for concrete information here, not speculation.

2 The related question is: under what conditions can a Latin Rite priest celebrate according to the Anglican form? Again, not speculation but facts. In this context, I mean without the explicit permission of the bishop from question 1.

I do not know the answer to either of those questions, and I’m asking if anyone here does know. I’m asking if anyone knows it as fact, not speculation, not rumor, not someone’s opinion, not someone’s weblog, not someone’s best guess. I’m looking for actual documentation from the Church that answers either or both questions.

Dear friends

While I appreciate the efforts of posters here to share information: Please, please, please read my questions before responding. I am asking what I am asking. It’s getting quite frustrating that people here for some reason just insist on responding with information that does not have anything to do with my questions. If you don’t know the answer then, please don’t try to answer. It isn’t helping.

 

[malphono]

While I appreciate the efforts of posters here to share information: Please, please, please read my questions before responding. I am asking what I am asking. It’s getting quite frustrating that people here for some reason just insist on responding with information that does not have anything to do with my questions. If you don’t know the answer then, please don’t try to answer. It isn’t helping.

The reply I had from my canon lawyer reinforces the idea that, since there is nothing “official” witeen about the matter, the only way to get that information is to “follow the chain” as I mentioned in a previous post.

Yes, I realize that you don’t want to bother those people with a request for information, but now that BernadetteM has spoken with an AU pastor, one step has already been taken. The next step is the San Antionio chancery, which should be able to explain matters in a satisfactory manner since it is host to an AU parish. It needn’t be a phone call: an email should suffice, and if it were me, I would even include that the discussion arose on this forum. Because there are only a small handful of parishes involved, the information may not have been written in an “official” document, but at the same time it’s not anything secret.

Just another friendly :twocents: from me

 

[BernadetteM]

I contacted Fr. Phillips again and this time asked if Latin Rite priests can celebrate the Anglican Use Mass at Anglican Use parishes, his answer was: Yes, absolutely and it happens frequently.

If one can only accept this by a formal document from Rome, they should go through the channels and ask Rome to draw one up.

As far as I am concerned a Catholic priest is a priest period and if the Bishops can celebrate the Anglican Use Mass why wouldn’t a priest.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette