Anglicanism vs. Catholicism

[gurneyhalleck1]

It is my observation that many Catholics have a wishful thinking approach to Lewis and even fantasize that he was a closet Catholic of sorts. He was not. Ask Tolkien, who was so frustrated that Lewis chose the Church of England. GKC is more knowledgable about Lewis than most people in here and I’m sure he could share the links that he has shared with me in which Lewis spelled out his reasoning for not becoming a Catholic.

Given that Lewis is not considered infallible, even if people do study his teachings, and second that belief in purgatory is fine among Orthodox, I don’t see it presenting a problem.

 

[sojo]

Hi Friend, OK - you be the ‘good cop’ and I’ll be myself - we could be a good team!
God Bless
(Do take a look at that link though - it’s brilliant as was its author the wonderful Dominic Barberi who is, no doubt at all, praying for our friend and all like him).

Great! We will make a great team. I’ll check out the link!

 

[Cranmer2010]

Which divinely revealed doctrine would you like The Church to compromise? The Catholic Church has no doctrines of her own – she was given the Deposit of Faith in trust by the Apostles. Her job is to interpret, defend, and preserve the “faith once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3), as she has done for 2,000 years.

Rather than “throwing them a bone to join the pound,” Rome responded pastorally to requests from distressed Anglicans who asked permission to join the Catholic Church but wished to maintain the Anglican style of worship to which they were accustomed. The “Pastoral Provision” for clergy and the “Anglican Use” liturgy, modified to bring it into compliance with Catholic doctrine, are the result of those requests. The Catholic Church has many rites; the Anglican Use rite is #20.

The first parish to convert en masse that cherishes the Anglican Use liturgy is Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio, Texas.

atonementonline.com/

Those such folks represent a very miniscule number of Anglicans contrary to what has been suggested by some. As I stated, there are tens and tens of millions of faithful Anglicans in the global south who faithfully uphold and adhere to the teachings and doctrine of the Anglican Communion.

 

[Cranmer2010]

The Vatican did not ‘throw a bone’ to disaffected Anglicans. Disaffected Anglicans petitioned the Vatican over several years for a way of joining the Church as a group with their own liturgy and leadership. The Pope’s offer was made against internal opposition and for, I am convinced, entirely selfless reasons.
Anglicans regard compromise as a virtue because this has been their way - and look where it has got them. The Anglicans do not regard themselves (wisely) as the one true church and cannot (and never did) understand the two Christian bodies who are convinced that they are.
The present Pope has asked Orthodoxy to state how they might see the Papacy operating in a unified Church but I am unaware of any response, they have no body with the authority to make such a response because the Orthodox are not themselves united, nor anywhere near it. Thus any moves to unity between Orthodoxy and Catholicism will need to await Orthodox internal unity, of which there are few signs.

There is less unity within the Roman Catholic church than many would care to admit. Unity in tongue and cheek isn’t the same as unity in the Body of Christ. Don’t kid yourself, God knows the difference.

 

[sojo]

I wish more had your sentiment, sojo! But dude, don’t reveal all your tricks so loudly! LOL Loose lips sink ships!

That’s “Dudette” or “Mrs. Dudette” to you, my friend! And yeah, I may have converted to Catholicism (and not for marriage, neither!) but I’m still just a loud-mouthed Jersey girl by nature. I’ll try to keep it down to modest levels. Since I’m past the mid-point of life, I’ll only promise to “try” - OK?

 

[Cranmer2010]

It is my observation that many Catholics have a wishful thinking approach to Lewis and even fantasize that he was a closet Catholic of sorts. He was not. Ask Tolkien, who was so frustrated that Lewis chose the Church of England. GKC is more knowledgable about Lewis than most people in here and I’m sure he could share the links that he has shared with me in which Lewis spelled out his reasoning for not becoming a Catholic.

I agree 100%…

 

[GKC]

It is my observation that many Catholics have a wishful thinking approach to Lewis and even fantasize that he was a closet Catholic of sorts. He was not. Ask Tolkien, who was so frustrated that Lewis chose the Church of England. GKC is more knowledgable about Lewis than most people in here and I’m sure he could share the links that he has shared with me in which Lewis spelled out his reasoning for not becoming a Catholic.

I could, yes. Probably cut and paste it from my saved posts. I have had to do the why was Lewis not a RC so often I think I saved most of the stuff.

GKC

 

[Jim_Dandy]

And don’t forget the fact that Lewis very openly rejected the papacy and its claims to infallibility and supremacy, etc. as well. So don’t be too quick to pope up C.S. Lewis. He was definitely an Anglican.

Letters to Malcolm, in which Lewis plainly stated his belief in Purgatory, was Lewis’s last book, written three months before his death and published posthumously. He never left the Anglican Church, but I think (as do others) that the Anglican Church left him as it grew increasingly more liberal. He foresaw the trouble the Anglican Church would find itself in if it ever ordained women. He asked a Catholic priest for “prayers that the prejudices instilled in me by an Ulster nurse might be overcome” (reference: C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, by Joseph Pearce).

But not even Lewis’s close friend J.R.R. Tolkein and his son, a Catholic priest, could convince him to convert. Maybe it was that Ulster nurse’s childhood influence? .

May perpetual light shine upon him and by the mercy of God, may he rest in peace.

Jim Dandy

 

[Cranmer2010]

Letters to Malcolm, in which Lewis plainly stated his belief in Purgatory, was Lewis’s last book, written three months before his death and published posthumously. He never left the Anglican Church, but I think (as do others) that the Anglican Church left him as it grew increasingly more liberal. He foresaw the trouble the Anglican Church would find itself in if it ever ordained women. He asked a Catholic priest for “prayers that the prejudices instilled in me by an Ulster nurse might be overcome” (reference: C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, by Joseph Pearce).

But not even Lewis’s close friend J.R.R. Tolkein and his son, a Catholic priest, could convince him to convert. Maybe it was that Ulster nurse’s childhood influence? .

May perpetual light shine upon him and by the mercy of God, may he rest in peace.

Jim Dandy

Respectfully, you are mistaken in your statement. A few (minority number) of provinces of the Anglican Communion have adopted liberal theology which is challenging and weighing heavily upon the autonymous nature of the Communion’s provinces. The Anglican Communion itself does not condone the facets of this liberal theology nor will it. Is this a problematic issue within the Anglican church? You bet it is. It has been very detrimental to unity. The Archbishop of Canterbury has been pretty much dismissed by many Anglicans especially those in the Global South (those that participated in GAFCON). But to say that homosexual unions and clergy are part of Anglican doctrine is like saying that child sexual abuse is part of Catholic doctrine.

 

[GKC]

Letters to Malcolm, in which Lewis plainly stated his belief in Purgatory, was Lewis’s last book, written three months before his death and published posthumously. He never left the Anglican Church, but I think (as do others) that the Anglican Church left him as it grew increasingly more liberal. He foresaw the trouble the Anglican Church would find itself in if it ever ordained women. He asked a Catholic priest for “prayers that the prejudices instilled in me by an Ulster nurse might be overcome” (reference: C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church, by Joseph Pearce).

But not even Lewis’s close friend J.R.R. Tolkein and his son, a Catholic priest, could convince him to convert. Maybe it was that Ulster nurse’s childhood influence? .

May perpetual light shine upon him and by the mercy of God, may he rest in peace.

Jim Dandy

Lewis did accept the concept of Purgation, as is often thought of in Anglicanism; a process/event, not necessarily a place. And though one must be cautious in attributing anything the narrator “says”, in MALCOM, since the letters are constructs, epistolatory exposition that does not necessarily always reflect Lewis directly, in this case, it does.

His quarrel with what he considered the classic 16th century concpet of Purgatory, as something the reformation had released believers from, can be found in his ENGLISH LITERATURE IN THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY, in a discussion of Fisher’s concept of Purgatory (p. 163); that for Fisher, the pains of Purgatory were less purgative than retributive and, more directly, More’s concept in THE SUPPLICATION OF SOULS, discussed pp. 172-173. “This sort of thing, among others, was what the old religion had come to mean in the popular imagination during the reign of Henry VIII: this was one of the things a man left behind in becoming a Protestant”. He also discusses his views on Purgatory in the GREAT DIVORCE, putting his thoughts into George MacDonald’s mouth.
Lewis was a believer in Purgation, all the same.

The Ulster claim is one I often find put forward, often based on Tolkien’s opinions, but rarely is Fr. Brinkworth’s claim advanced. Even Pearce (in your source, pp. 148-149) hesitates to fully accept the good father’s unsupported word. Pearce’s book on Lewis and the RCC is the best of the 3 I know on it, but not without some spots one might take exception to, this not being one of them.

I agree Lewis would be out of step with what remains of the Church of England.

GKC.

 

[Nine_Two]

The term ‘Roman Catholic’ was an invention of the Anglicans because, they considered themselves the Catholic Church in England and so used the term to differentiate the foreign Catholics (as they saw it) to themselves. The term is illogical (since Catholic means universal) and has never been accepted by Catholics.
I recall a dispute, years ago in a small English town where both the Anglican and Catholic churches had signs saying ‘Catholic Church’. The Anglican vicar insisted that his was the (English) Catholic church and the other was a Roman Catholic church so the priest should change his since his was a foreign Catholic Church operating in England.

I’m looking for sources on this though.

 

[GKC]

I’m looking for sources on this though.

I’m no help. But at one time, I think I had the name of the book (16th century) in which an Anglican was first known to use the term.

If you find out, let me know.

GKC

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Respectfully, you are mistaken in your statement. A few (minority number) of provinces of the Anglican Communion have adopted liberal theology which is challenging and weighing heavily upon the autonymous nature of the Communion’s provinces. The Anglican Communion itself does not condone the facets of this liberal theology nor will it. Is this a problematic issue within the Anglican church? You bet it is. It has been very detrimental to unity. The Archbishop of Canterbury has been pretty much dismissed by many Anglicans especially those in the Global South (those that participated in GAFCON). But to say that homosexual unions and clergy are part of Anglican doctrine is like saying that child sexual abuse is part of Catholic doctrine.

Anglicanism was splintered from its beginning in the 17th century – within one body are three “churches” – the conservative, the evangelical, and the liberal. As far as I can tell, you’re stuck with that arrangement unless there is a formal split.

Is the Episcopal Church Anglican? Yep. Correct me, please, if I’m wrong. And the Episcopal Church has openly practicing homosexual clergy of both sexes, with their partners, living in rectories paid for by the church. The Episcopal Church also is a member of Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights (name changed from Abortion Rights), and advocates for unfettered abortion on demand. It is under the Anglican tent. I don’t recall an announcement that the Episcopal Church has been cut off from Canterbury.

No amount of “we’re not like them” removes the Anglican tag from any of the three factions. If I’m wrong, please tell me when Anglicanism separated into its three constituent parts: The High Church, the Low Church (Evangelicals), and the Broad Church (liberals). The High Church seems to have divided among themselves, as I view it. Anglicanism is a many-splintered thing. Awaiting your correction. Thanks.

Jim Dandy

 

[GKC]

Anglicanism was splintered from its beginning in the 17th century – within one body are three “churches” – the conservative, the evangelical, and the liberal. As far as I can tell, you’re stuck with that arrangement unless there is a formal split.

Is the Episcopal Church Anglican? Yep. Correct me, please, if I’m wrong. And the Episcopal Church has openly practicing homosexual clergy of both sexes, with their partners, living in rectories paid for by the church. The Episcopal Church also is a member of Religious Coalition for Reproductive Rights (name changed from Abortion Rights), and advocates for unfettered abortion on demand. It is under the Anglican tent. I don’t recall an announcement that the Episcopal Church has been cut off from Canterbury.

No amount of “we’re not like them” removes the Anglican tag from any of the three factions. If I’m wrong, please tell me when Anglicanism separated into its three constituent parts: The High Church, the Low Church (Evangelicals), and the Broad Church (liberals). The High Church seems to have divided among themselves, as I view it. Anglicanism is a many-splintered thing. Awaiting your correction. Thanks.

Jim Dandy

16th century, not 17th. And yes, some Anglicans are not only not like them, they are not part of them, separated from The Anglican Communion. The Anglican Continuum, for example.

You misunderstand about the doctrinal range within Anglicanism, as I told you in a PM.

GKC

 

[Jim_Dandy]

There is less unity within the Roman Catholic church than many would care to admit. Unity in tongue and cheek isn’t the same as unity in the Body of Christ. Don’t kid yourself, God knows the difference.

If you mean that there are dissenters within the Catholic Church, who fail to leave the Church as they should, and do their best to foment rebellion, you are correct. But the Church teaches only one Truth. The Truth does not depend on one’s ability to stomach it (quoting or paraphrasing Flannery O’Conner). The Truth remains TheTruth whether one believes it or not. And the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church remains – the gates of hell (KJV, or the powers of death, RSV) shall not prevail (Mt 16:18-19).

On the other hand, Protestantism is splintered into thousands of denominations, each with a different “truth.”

There is always an upheaval in the Church following a General Council. It usually takes about a hundred years to incorporate any Council’s teaching and directives and we’re only about 45 years out from Vatican II. Check back in another half century.

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

16th century, not 17th. And yes, some Anglicans are not only not like them, they are not part of them, separated from The Anglican Communion. The Anglican Continuum, for example.

Is there a website explaining what’s in and what’s out of “The Anglican Communion”?

You misunderstand about the doctrinal range within Anglicanism, as I told you in a PM.

GKC

Sorry, didn’t know. I’ll go there and read it now. Thank you.

I think this whole Anglican confusion arises because there is no one in charge. Anglicans need a Pope .

Peace, Jim Dandy

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I could, yes. Probably cut and paste it from my saved posts. I have had to do the why was Lewis not a RC so often I think I saved most of the stuff.

GKC

Don’t do it on my account. I’m not claiming that Lewis was a Catholic wannabe.

 

[GKC]

Is there a website explaining what’s in and what’s out of “The Anglican Communion”?

Sorry, didn’t know. I’ll go there and read it now. Thank you.

I think this whole Anglican confusion arises because there is no one in charge. Anglicans need a Pope .

Peace, Jim Dandy

Actually, there was such, once, but I think it’s gone.

Sometimes I will natter on about it. Try googling “Anglican Continuum”, for those formally not in communion with Canterbury. Like me. I recall Wiki had an ok account on it, though I might argue with it. A book on the subject is DIVIDED WE STAND/Bess.

Anglicanism today is a circus, and we cannot tell the players without aa program. Which was roughly the subject of the first post I ever made on line, anywhere, around 10 years ago. So I have had to continue in that line periodically. Only one thing may be generally said, as generally true of Anglicans these days. You cannot generalize successfully about them.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Don’t do it on my account. I’m not claiming that Lewis was a Catholic wannabe.

Wasn’t planning to.

Though I do it, on occasion, on request, or to correct misguided folk.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That’s a given! Just about everyone is!

I agree Lewis would be out of step with what remains of the Church of England.

GKC.