Anglicans are being bashed because of ignorance of Anglicanism

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Harpazo said:
Shlom lokh,

How can you sit there and accept the fact that you are in communion with churches that teach sinful practices as not being sinful? Being a part of another church in the Anglican Communion does not make the problems of the Anglican Communion go away.

Again, can you please show me where I was inconsistent in speaking about the disunity of Anglicanism?

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew
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How can you claim that clergy in the RCC that sexually abused children is still in communion with your church? Same argument. Your leadership failed miserably just as Rowan Williams is failing miserably in his duties. God knows and sees all, bottom line.
 
Just out of curiosity, have any of you ever heard of Eucharistic miracles or exorcisms, Marian apparitions or other supernatural phenomena in the Anglican Communion anywhere? I’ve heard of many in the Roman Catholic world and wonder if any of you have heard of it in Anglican circles…
 
mark_a said:
You are right. I don’t know anything about the Anglican Communion. Here are some questions:

Which churches are members of the AC?

Do any members of the AC still see the king or queen of England as their leader?

Does the AC ever excommunnicate troublemakers?

I know the Catholic Church’s reasons for thinking the AC is not in communion with the Catholic Church, but what are the AC’s reasons?
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Let me have a shot at this.

The Anglican Communion is made up of 38 self-governing, independent Anglican jurisdictions, which arose primarily out of the colonial expansion of Great Britain. Their origin was thus in the Church of England, which was originally all that was meant by “Anglican”. But they have no formal affiliation with the CoE now, save by virute of being “in communion” with the Archbishop of Canterbury, which is the formal definition of the offical Anglican Communion. Not all Anglicans are part of this communion. I’m not, for example. The member church of the official Anglican Communion in America is the Episcopal Church. I could name a lot of the other jurisdictions but to find all 38, try a google.

It is the Church of England, not the Anglican Communion generally, that considers the Sovereign as the supreme Governor of their Church (the term is Elzabeth I’s; Henry had called himself the Supreme Head). I occasionally find folk who think that Anglicans generally burn clarified butter before images of the Queen, but it is not so. She is titular head of the Church of England, by act of Parliament, not of the entire Anglican Communion. In similar fashion, the Archbishop of Canterbury is the primate of the Church of England. Wearing another hat, he is titular (that is nominal) senior prelate of the Anglican communion. He has no authority over other bishops, outside the CoE, or over other Anglican jurisdictions, other than what he can manage through politics and persuasion. He is not an Anglican analog to the Pope.

Anglicans don’t excommunicate. It would be a good idea to do so, in many cases, but that’s not how things are set up. A member jurisdiction could be expelled (theoretically) from the Anglican Communion (when ice skating is an Olympic sport in Hell) but that’s about it.

Generally, the Anglican Church is not in communion with the RCC
because, inter alia, it takes two to tango.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
 
SIA said:
How can you claim that clergy in the RCC that sexually abused children is still in communion with your church? Same argument. Your leadership failed miserably just as Rowan Williams is failing miserably in his duties. God knows and sees all, bottom line.
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Shlom lokh,

Brother SIA, why do you always come back to this? There were NEVER any single Bishop, Priest or otherwise that taught these horrible actions were acceptable. On the other hand, there are churches in the Anglican Communion that state sexual immorality (homosexuality, contraception, etc.) is perfectly fine. These churches promote these things! You are in communion with them. We are not in communion with any Bishop, Metropolitan, Patriarch or any other leader in the Holy Catholic Church that teaches what churches in the Anglican Communion teach.

If one part of the ship goes down, the rest is sure to follow. That’s what happens when one is outside of Catholic Orthodoxy. It’s a sad, but undeniable truth.

Alloho minokhoun,
Andrew
 
GKC said:
Let me have a shot at this.

The Anglican Communion is made up of 38 self-governing, independent Anglican jurisdictions, which arose primarily out of the colonial expansion of Great Britain. Their origin was thus in the Church of England, which was originally all that was meant by “Anglican”. But they have no formal affiliation with the CoE now, save by virute of being “in communion” with the Archbishop of Canterbury, which is the formal definition of the offical Anglican Communion. Not all Anglicans are part of this communion. I’m not, for example. The member church of the official Anglican Communion in America is the Episcopal Church. I could name a lot of the other jurisdictions but to find all 38, try a google.

It is the Church of England, not the Anglican Communion generally, that considers the Sovereign as the supreme Governor of their Church (the term is Elzabeth I’s; Henry had called himself the Supreme Head). I occasionally find folk who think that Anglicans generally burn clarified butter before images of the Queen, but it is not so. She is titular head of the Church of England, by act of Parliament, not of the entire Anglican Communion. In similar fashion, the Archbishop of Canterbury is the primate of the Church of England. Wearing another hat, he is titular (that is nominal) senior prelate of the Anglican communion. He has no authority over other bishops, outside the CoE, or over other Anglican jurisdictions, other than what he can manage through politics and persuasion. He is not an Anglican analog to the Pope.

Anglicans don’t excommunicate. It would be a good idea to do so, in many cases, but that’s not how things are set up. A member jurisdiction could be expelled (theoretically) from the Anglican Communion (when ice skating is an Olympic sport in Hell) but that’s about it.

Generally, the Anglican Church is not in communion with the RCC
because, inter alia, it takes two to tango.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus
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Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
 
deborahaz said:
if your church SIA is one which is upholding the truth of scripture, which i believe it is, you are right, your church is not.

however, there are other churches in the anglican communion, such as many episcopal churches, that are not upholding the truth of scripture and how they interpret the scripture is very liberal.
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Sometimes I think that all of the concern and angst over the “liberal” or “conservative” views of the Faith allows we Episcopalians and fellow Anglicans to lose sight of what really is important. Today our Rector taught Adult Christian Formation (Sunday School) and went into some depth about current controversies in the AC - which have roots as far back as the 1960s. He noted that the current turmoils facing the Church are minor compared to its early years (no one is chopping off anyone’s head or burning dissenters for heresy) and that we all, as Anglicans, need to decide if taking part in the controversy will create the fullest possible relationship that we can have with Jesus Christ. How important is it to be “right,” and what do we really accomplish by “pointing at another group that we don’t think is really or properly seeking Jesus?”

The Rector noted that neither the Liberals and Conservatives have much time for those of us “in the middle” – those of us who choose focus on our common interests rather than our differences. While not blessing same sex unions, he strongly affirmed that LGBT persons have a place in the life of the Church, and that we, as a Church and communion of faiths, have a duty to minister to all of those who claim Jesus as Lord and Savior, regardless of their sexual orientation. This is similar to the Bishop of Umuahia in Eastern Nigeria, Rt. Rev. Ikechi Nwachukwu Nwosu, accepting practicing polygamists as Anglicans “For the sake of our understanding of a compassionate God” - although in the same article he roundly denounces homosexuality as having “no place in our culture or in the life of the church.” (virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/print.php?storyid=8083) Our Rector further challenged us to continue to build a Church than can look beyond human disagreements and respond with compassion and mercy to those seeking peace. He noted that we “fragile and fallible” messengers can and must carry the really true and important message: God is in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. Controversies about women clergy, LGBT participation in the leadership of the church, and other issues of power and control pale in comparison to that vital concept, and all of us in the AC need to take heart and embrace this most important message.

It seemed to me the Rector was right on, and spoke for many of my fellow Episcopalians in the four parishes I have been a part of since this latest strife broke out. Apparently the leaders of both sides of the current Anglican controversy - liberal and conservative - seem more interested in gaining power and influence through pushing their agendas than in stressing the common beliefs we have about God’s salvation and love through Jesus Christ. That is the real tragedy about the current disagreements in the Anglican Communion – that these important truths are lost in the noise of controversies that don’t affect the majority of us in the body of the Church.

God Bless!
 
SIA said:
How can you claim that clergy in the RCC that sexually abused children is still in communion with your church? Same argument. Your leadership failed miserably just as Rowan Williams is failing miserably in his duties. God knows and sees all, bottom line.
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Rather than hanging out here, venting your ire on us and commenting about pedophile priests, ad nauseum, has it ever occurred to you that your time might be better spent on an Anglican board somewhere? There are factions of your own communion that teach immorality as DOGMA. Perhaps your efforts might achieve something constructive if you were to discuss those institutional dysfunctions with other Anglicans and share your advice with any of them who may have issues with the current state of affairs.
 
RC_Matt said:
Rather than hanging out here, venting your ire on us and commenting about pedophile priests, ad nauseum, has it ever occurred to you that your time might be better spent on an Anglican board somewhere? There are factions of your own communion that teach immorality as DOGMA. Perhaps your efforts might achieve something constructive if you were to discuss those institutional dysfunctions with other Anglicans and share your advice with any of them who may have issues with the current state of affairs.
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Matt, Catholics cannot ignore the pedophile abuse scandal. Practically every Catholic on CAF or Catholic Answers radio, EWTN, etc. have tried to minimize it, get very touchy and angry when anyone brings it up, and it drives me nuts. The fact is that our church has no checks and balances so we’ve had decades of corrupt bishops and archbishops defended and hiding these sicks men. I think it’s unfair to say that Anglicans in this “non-Catholic religions” (!!!) forum shouldn’t be here and that they don’t have the right to point out RCC weaknesses is bogus. You must also realize how many threads are on CAF that bash protestants like JimmyB’s threads. There are so many threads on here ripping apart Anglicans and mocking their disunity and almost delighting that they’re falling apart (good, now they’ll come back to Rome! kind of thinking). These guys have the right to criticize our Church. There are so many Catholics here in CAF that actually think the Church wasn’t chuck full of corruption and despotism in the middle ages and that it wasn’t even in need of reform? We need to be able to look at our own church with intellectual honesty and admit when it has shortcomings. I welcome Anglicans here and honestly agree with several things they say.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Matt, Catholics cannot ignore the pedophile abuse scandal. Practically every Catholic on CAF or Catholic Answers radio, EWTN, etc. have tried to minimize it, get very touchy and angry when anyone brings it up, and it drives me nuts.
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While I disagree with Matt’s invitation for SIA to leave, he’s pointing out that SIA has a poor habit of bringing up the ‘scandal’ (which really has little to do with pedophilia, it’s more along the lines of ephebophilia. Don’t just accept what you read from the media without question.) as a defense mechanism whenever we start talking about the shortcomings within Anglicanism.

The point is that saying “Oh yeah? Well you have SINNERS in *your *clergy!” isn’t a very good argument against “Your communion has authorized blessing same sex unions and ordains sexually active homosexuals” (or, more accurately, your communion refuses to discipline the member churches who have done so and allows them to remain in full communion/good standing)

If Rome issues a liturgy for blessing same sex unions or ordains Elton John, then we have a real argument. 😉
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Matt, Catholics cannot ignore the pedophile abuse scandal. Practically every Catholic on CAF or Catholic Answers radio, EWTN, etc. have tried to minimize it, get very touchy and angry when anyone brings it up, and it drives me nuts. The fact is that our church has no checks and balances so we’ve had decades of corrupt bishops and archbishops defended and hiding these sicks men. I think it’s unfair to say that Anglicans in this “non-Catholic religions” (!!!) forum shouldn’t be here and that they don’t have the right to point out RCC weaknesses is bogus. You must also realize how many threads are on CAF that bash protestants like JimmyB’s threads. There are so many threads on here ripping apart Anglicans and mocking their disunity and almost delighting that they’re falling apart (good, now they’ll come back to Rome! kind of thinking). These guys have the right to criticize our Church. There are so many Catholics here in CAF that actually think the Church wasn’t chuck full of corruption and despotism in the middle ages and that it wasn’t even in need of reform? We need to be able to look at our own church with intellectual honesty and admit when it has shortcomings. I welcome Anglicans here and honestly agree with several things they say.
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Well said.
 
RC_Matt said:
Rather than hanging out here, venting your ire on us and commenting about pedophile priests, ad nauseum, has it ever occurred to you that your time might be better spent on an Anglican board somewhere? There are factions of your own communion that teach immorality as DOGMA. Perhaps your efforts might achieve something constructive if you were to discuss those institutional dysfunctions with other Anglicans and share your advice with any of them who may have issues with the current state of affairs.
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Well, thank you for trying to show me the door. I am a member on some Anglican boards as a matter of fact and last I checked, Protestants are still welcome here. I could be wrong.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Matt, Catholics cannot ignore the pedophile abuse scandal. Practically every Catholic on CAF or Catholic Answers radio, EWTN, etc. have tried to minimize it, get very touchy and angry when anyone brings it up, and it drives me nuts. The fact is that our church has no checks and balances so we’ve had decades of corrupt bishops and archbishops defended and hiding these sicks men. I think it’s unfair to say that Anglicans in this “non-Catholic religions” (!!!) forum shouldn’t be here and that they don’t have the right to point out RCC weaknesses is bogus. You must also realize how many threads are on CAF that bash protestants like JimmyB’s threads. There are so many threads on here ripping apart Anglicans and mocking their disunity and almost delighting that they’re falling apart (good, now they’ll come back to Rome! kind of thinking). These guys have the right to criticize our Church. There are so many Catholics here in CAF that actually think the Church wasn’t chuck full of corruption and despotism in the middle ages and that it wasn’t even in need of reform? We need to be able to look at our own church with intellectual honesty and admit when it has shortcomings. I welcome Anglicans here and honestly agree with several things they say.
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All the scandals have ZERO to do with my faith. They are a people problem, not a faith problem. The scandals have nothing to do with me being Catholic or not. That being said, that sodomite, unrepentant sinner, “bishop” Robinson is a sad joke. :cool:
 
SIA said:
Well, thank you for trying to show me the door. I am a member on some Anglican boards as a matter of fact and last I checked, Protestants are still welcome here. I could be wrong.
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Dude, what are you talking about? RC-Matt didn’t try to show you the door, he just suggested that your time “might be better spent on an Anglican board somewhere”. 😉

I’m reminded of what Cardinal Sodano told the married UGCC priests in Poland 10 years ago: that they would better serve the Church if they all returned to their “dioceses of origin in Ukraine”.

ukrweekly.com/old/archive/1998/199802.shtml
 
Peter_J said:
Dude, what are you talking about? RC-Matt didn’t try to show you the door, he just suggested that your time “might be better spent on an Anglican board somewhere”. 😉

I’m reminded of what Cardinal Sodano told the married UGCC priests in Poland 10 years ago: that they would better serve the Church if they all returned to their “dioceses of origin in Ukraine”.

ukrweekly.com/old/archive/1998/199802.shtml
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I wasn’t going to respond to his comment, my suggestion was actually a (deservedly backhanded) compliment; but he has issues with reading comprehension. The point is that there are many Anglicans/Episcopalians who are in a quandary as to how to deal with the issues currently impacting their communion and this guy seems to have found a reasonable means of addressing the situation. Call me crazy, but I would think that his time would be productively spent sharing his ideas with those who could benefit from them, rather than wasting his time (and ours) by pointlessly grinding his ex-Catholic axe here.
 
RC_Matt said:
I wasn’t going to respond to his comment, my suggestion was actually a (deservedly backhanded) compliment; but he has issues with reading comprehension. The point is that there are many Anglicans/Episcopalians who are in a quandary as to how to deal with the issues currently impacting their communion and this guy seems to have found a reasonable means of addressing the situation. Call me crazy, but I would think that his time would be productively spent sharing his ideas with those who could benefit from them, rather than wasting his time (and ours) by pointlessly grinding his ex-Catholic axe here.
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Yeah. Real complementary.
 
I know a one Anglican that is not welcome, just tolerated…there is a big difference
 
GKC said:
Speaking for one Anglican only, I’ve never felt merely tolerated, myself.

GKC
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I see a big difference between you and SIA. And a big difference in what you both believe (I guess). Although both of you are Anglicans.

You said earlier- “Anglicans don’t excommunicate.”
He said this, “Finally, yes there are those churches in the AC which will excommunicate those who commit grave acts in contrast to our beliefs and doctrines.”

I asked that question to him before if Anglicans can excommunicate… didn’t get an answer, see now, I am more confused. :confused:

But I never read anywhere that they can and so I think I agree with you.

Just to say, I’m speaking for myself, that you are not unwelcome here.

Peace…
 
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