Anglicans/Episcopalians and Apostolic Succession

[Holly3278]

Hi everyone. Besides the fact that the Anglican and Episcopal Churches ordain women, why is their apostolic succession (where they were ordained by men who were ordained by men and so on and so forth) invalid? Is it possible that there are some priests or bishops in the Anglican or Episcopal Church that do have valid apostolic succession?

 

[bpbasilphx]

This is treated by Leo XIII’s decree APOSTICLIAE CURIAE.

What good does it do to be in a succession of laying-on-of-hands without the FAITH that goes with it?

 

[Holly3278]

This is treated by Leo XIII’s decree APOSTICLIAE CURIAE.

What good does it do to be in a succession of laying-on-of-hands without the FAITH that goes with it?

Does Apostolicae Curiae say that there was no faith that went with the laying on of hands for Anglican/Episcopalian priests/bishops?

 

[SIA]

Hi everyone. Besides the fact that the Anglican and Episcopal Churches ordain women, why is their apostolic succession (where they were ordained by men who were ordained by men and so on and so forth) invalid? Is it possible that there are some priests or bishops in the Anglican or Episcopal Church that do have valid apostolic succession?

Anglican clergy absolutely does have valid apostolic succession

 

[Cathdefender]

Anglican clergy absolutely does have valid apostolic succession

How so?

 

[jay29]

Anglican clergy absolutely does have valid apostolic succession

“Anglican orders for women are just as valid as Anglican orders for men. So there is a strange but unintentional equality within Anglican orders since for the most part their male priests are not validly ordained in the first place. There are exceptions since some Anglican bishops have confused the issue by having Orthodox bishops with valid orders participate in their ordinations, though of course this doesn’t matter in the case of attempted ordination of women.”

When Pope Leo XIII issued Apostolicae Curiae he noted that Anglican Orders weren’t invalid only because of non-Apostolic succession but because the ritual had changed under King Edward VI. Even if a bishop with valid orders participated the sacrament wouldn’t be confected because the form is defective.

splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/008628.php

 

[GKC]

“Anglican orders for women are just as valid as Anglican orders for men. So there is a strange but unintentional equality within Anglican orders since for the most part their male priests are not validly ordained in the first place. There are exceptions since some Anglican bishops have confused the issue by having Orthodox bishops with valid orders participate in their ordinations, though of course this doesn’t matter in the case of attempted ordination of women.”

When Pope Leo XIII issued Apostolicae Curiae he noted that Anglican Orders weren’t invalid only because of non-Apostolic succession but because the ritual had changed under King Edward VI. Even if a bishop with valid orders participated the sacrament wouldn’t be confected because the form is defective.

splendoroftruth.com/curtjester/archives/008628.php

The conclusion of *Apostolicae Curae *requires the interaction of 2 forms of defect, that of form and that of intention. The form is not exceptional in itself. A number of Rites which posses the same “defect” are considered by Rome as able to convey the sacrament of orders validly. It is when that form is combined with the defect of intention assumed by the use of that form, in the ordination of Archbishop Parker, in 1559, written as it was, in the circumstances that it was, that it is considered as defective, and unable to convey the sacrament validly. Form and intent must be considered together.

The form itself was changed in 1662, for reasons that have nothing to do with issues between Canterbury and Rome and the particular point considered as invalid is no longer present.

You will readily grasp that Anglicans have quite a different view of *Apostolicae Curae *than do RCs.

Also, it is often mentioned that Anglicans have had Orthodox bishops participate in their ordinations. AFAIK, that is not the case. However, there have been many cases of Old Catholics (Utrecht) and PNCC bishops participating in the consecration of Anglican bishops, since 1932, infusing, by that standard, valid lines into Anglicanism…

GKC

 

[SIA]

How so?

How not?

 

[O.S.Luke]

Since Anglicans could care less about what Apostolicae Curae says - and there is as much (if not more) bad blood and politics that override theology and history, I suspect this will become a thread that gets circular quickly. Anglicans know their ordinations are valid. Catholics don’t see it that way. Nothing new.

In the end… I suspect God could care less. “For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.” - 1 Cor. 1.25, NAB

 

[SIA]

Since Anglicans could care less about what Apostolicae Curae says - and there is as much (if not more) bad blood and politics that override theology and history, I suspect this will become a thread that gets circular quickly. Anglicans know their ordinations are valid. Catholics don’t see it that way. Nothing new.

In the end… I suspect God could care less. “For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.” - 1 Cor. 1.25, NAB

Very nice post and thank you for it.

 

[thirdn6]

Since Anglicans could care less about what Apostolicae Curae says - and there is as much (if not more) bad blood and politics that override theology and history, I suspect this will become a thread that gets circular quickly. Anglicans know their ordinations are valid. Catholics don’t see it that way. Nothing new.

In the end… I suspect God could care less. “For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.” - 1 Cor. 1.25, NAB

Not in the far end we’ll find out… whom has the promises of the Holy Spirit and whom has not. Whom has the truth and whom has not…
We disagree… therefore one of us is true and one of us is false.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Not in the far end we’ll find out… whom has the promises of the Holy Spirit and whom has not. Whom has the truth and whom has not…
We disagree… therefore one of us is true and one of us is false.

I suspect in the end, neither of us will care about 99.66% of the things that are argued at CAF. Or any other Christian forum. Separated brethren will once again be united.

Human logic of either/or probably falls under the heading of “human foolishness.” At best, we are foolish in trying to understand the ways and truth of God.

 

[SIA]

Not in the far end we’ll find out… whom has the promises of the Holy Spirit and whom has not. Whom has the truth and whom has not…
We disagree… therefore one of us is true and one of us is false.

thats just you talking.

 

[GKC]

Since Anglicans could care less about what Apostolicae Curae says - and there is as much (if not more) bad blood and politics that override theology and history, I suspect this will become a thread that gets circular quickly. Anglicans know their ordinations are valid. Catholics don’t see it that way. Nothing new.

In the end… I suspect God could care less. “For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.” - 1 Cor. 1.25, NAB

I care. I just don’t agree.

I care enough to study on the sad history of the whole issue.

GKC

 

[thirdn6]

thats just you talking.

oh I’m quite surprised. Haven’t you heard or read about the Holy Spirit (aka the Paraclete, the Comforter) who is guiding the holy Catholic Church until the end of days??? One Who leads the Church to all truths???

If I said one of us is true and one of us is false- it is showing, correct? Right our very eyes it is unfolding! Just open your eyes and see…

 

[SIA]

oh I’m quite surprised. Haven’t you heard or read about the Holy Spirit (aka the Paraclete, the Comforter) who is guiding the holy Catholic Church until the end of days??? One Who leads the Church to all truths???

If I said one of us is true and one of us is false- it is showing, correct? Right our very eyes it is unfolding! Just open your eyes and see…

Again, just your spin. I didn’t see the Holy Spirit leading it when I was Catholic most of my life from infancy. I didn’t see the Holy Spirit leading it when countless boys were locked in a secret hell of molestation by the men who they wholly believed were the ONLY Apostolically successors of Peter. And i certainly don’t see the Holy Spirit leading it with a seperate but equally horrible scandal of moving known predators around the globe to avoid dealing with the atrocities of sexual intrusion of young boys. I was a fool to stay Catholic for as long as I did wondering why for years and years that I couldn’t experience Christ’s love and peace and why the Holy Spirit seemed so far from me. It just cheeses me so badly that blind followers can be so; well, blind.

 

[thirdn6]

Again, just your spin. I didn’t see the Holy Spirit leading it when I was Catholic most of my life from infancy. I didn’t see the Holy Spirit leading it when countless boys were locked in a secret hell of molestation by the men who they wholly believed were the ONLY Apostolically successors of Peter. And i certainly don’t see the Holy Spirit leading it with a seperate but equally horrible scandal of moving known predators around the globe to avoid dealing with the atrocities of sexual intrusion of young boys. I was a fool to stay Catholic for as long as I did wondering why for years and years that I couldn’t experience Christ’s love and peace and why the Holy Spirit seemed so far from me. It just cheeses me so badly that blind followers can be so; well, blind.

Certainly, we can’t go anywhere if we’re stuck on scandals and sins of other people, catholics or non-catholics. We are humans. Some weak, some strong. Some can not resist temptations, some can. Most need true conversion- heart and soul. Bottom line, even the Pope was ashamed of these scandals as all catholics do. But we are talking about doctrines and teachings here that can edify and sanctify the church. Essential doctrines and teachings which may lead us to salvation. Not teachings that focus on scandals and contradictions to revealed truths. This is about which church teaches truth and which church don’t. Which church teaches morality and which church goes against morality.

Blind followers are simply those who follow false teachings and commandments of men. Suicide bombers, heretics and fanatics are examples of them- devoid of reason like robots. I know you’re smart enough to know what blind followers are…

I’m just curious. Why’d you look back if you found love and peace in Anglicanism? Why look back at us, catholics, here in CAF? Aren’t you afraid of turning into a pillar of salt???

 

[Howard_Roark]

So SIA has an idiosyncratic theology whereby the sins of some priests and Bishops invalidate the entire Church. Why answer a fool according to his folly?

Adherence to Anglicanism requires a cast of mind that a lifelong Catholic or a mere convert from low Protestantism will never, ever understand. For us, things are much too black and white…we don’t have the kind of over-wrought sentimentalities about the Common Book or Prayer or mist on the moors or whatever it is they’re always going on about.

We see a simple schism perpetuated on the occasion of a scandalous sin by a syphillitic King and muderous henchmen…we don’t give a damn about the possible valid succession and orders of the male members of the Anglican clergy…we just don’t want to be associated with (nay, tainted by) anything like that.

And so we leave the whole dreary business of the decline and fall of England to dreary Englishmen…let them listen to archbishop of Caterbury as he adds insult to their injury.

Phooey.

 

[Cathdefender]

Again, just your spin. I didn’t see the Holy Spirit leading it when I was Catholic most of my life from infancy. I didn’t see the Holy Spirit leading it when countless boys were locked in a secret hell of molestation by the men who they wholly believed were the ONLY Apostolically successors of Peter. And i certainly don’t see the Holy Spirit leading it with a seperate but equally horrible scandal of moving known predators around the globe to avoid dealing with the atrocities of sexual intrusion of young boys. I was a fool to stay Catholic for as long as I did wondering why for years and years that I couldn’t experience Christ’s love and peace and why the Holy Spirit seemed so far from me. It just cheeses me so badly that blind followers can be so; well, blind.

Here we go again with the priests…oh brother, it really gets old after a while. www.reformation.com will explain how the hundreds if not thousands of Episcopal, Anglican, Baptist “pastors” and others as well have molested others. You say you were a fool for staying in the CC,because of the priest scandal, well what is your excuse for staying in a church that has also molested and commited crimes? These off-shoots from the only Catholic church Jesus had founded?

 

[jay29]

Here we go again with the priests…oh brother, it really gets old after a while. www.reformation.com will explain how the hundreds if not thousands of Episcopal, Anglican, Baptist “pastors” and others as well have molested others. You say you were a fool for staying in the CC,because of the priest scandal, well what is your excuse for staying in a church that has also molested and commited crimes? These off-shoots from the only Catholic church Jesus had founded?

The baptists are FULL OF THEM. Besides protestant clergy molests MORE children than the catholics.

stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm