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GKC
Guest
I always forget the Assyrian Church of the East. But I was just sluffing over the PNCC.
How about the OCs of Utrecht, since they started laying hands on hairspray?
GKC
- Status
How about the OCs of Utrecht, since they started laying hands on hairspray?
GKC
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Peter_J
Guest
Good question. The three aforementioned exceptions are pretty standard. (I’m pretty sure that I could even walk over to the nearest Latin Catholic Church and find a statement in the missalette, naming the Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and the PNCC, and no others.) But does that mean that everyone else, e.g. the Old Catholics, are excluded? I don’t know.
Perhaps others would be dealt with case-by-case.
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nablaise
Guest
Actually there is a group of Anglo-Catholics called TAC (Traditional Anglican Communion) who have applied to join Rome.
They teach the CCC to their flock and are basically catholic in their teachings and belief except that they are waiting for a formal approval by the Holy See. See their site for more information.
If the person in our case is in this Church, he probably think he is okay but it is not okay yet.
He can not take communion until the formal approuval of full communion has been established.
God bless
They teach the CCC to their flock and are basically catholic in their teachings and belief except that they are waiting for a formal approval by the Holy See. See their site for more information.
If the person in our case is in this Church, he probably think he is okay but it is not okay yet.
He can not take communion until the formal approuval of full communion has been established.
God bless
R
Robbinson
Guest
Well said - I agree. I love the invitation, at my Episcopal/Anglican Church to all baptized believers to partake of the Eucharist at the Lord’s table. It seems consistent with Jesus’ own words - let them come to me (speaking of the children) and his admonition to his disciples when they wanted to reject others who “were not with them” but were preaching the gospel.
While I’m drawn to Catholicism in many respects, this instituted separation by the Church through exclusion other Baptized Christians from communion is a difficult issue for me.
Blessings,
Brian
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nablaise
Guest
When the Lord says “let them come to me”…he want everyone to come to him, he accept them as they are but (liberals tends to forget this) he also heals them from all kinds of infirmities and sins.
The Eucarist is the Lamb’s Supper. One have to be clean of all sins in order to participate. Otherwise what St. Paul said apply. Many things are wrong in christians because of the abuse of communion. Paul use the word ‘death’ to describe it. And the book of Revelation goes into much details.
The Church refuse communion over ‘sinners’ to protect them from further curses they will be calling upon themselves if they were to partake in communion unwortly. It is out of charity that the Church does it.
Out of Charity also Jesus did many things like telling Mary not to touch him after his resurrection, etc…
God bless
The Eucarist is the Lamb’s Supper. One have to be clean of all sins in order to participate. Otherwise what St. Paul said apply. Many things are wrong in christians because of the abuse of communion. Paul use the word ‘death’ to describe it. And the book of Revelation goes into much details.
The Church refuse communion over ‘sinners’ to protect them from further curses they will be calling upon themselves if they were to partake in communion unwortly. It is out of charity that the Church does it.
Out of Charity also Jesus did many things like telling Mary not to touch him after his resurrection, etc…
God bless
R
Robbinson
Guest
I do understand, and agree, that if in sin, one should not take communion. However, the key question is, is a Christian “in sin” if he/she refuses to acknowledge the Pope as the infallible successor to St. Peter? Was it, in fact, God’s plan to create a Pope to “lord over” the Chrisitan community? Perhaps - that is the great debate between Protestants and Catholics. In so many ways, Christ told his disciples to be servants, not lord over others. Also, the concept of papal infallibility seems so inconsistent with Peter’s role even during this apostolic ministry where he erred (was rebuked by Jesus as Satan) and was later, after Christ’s death, rebuked by Paul and relented. So if the actual Peter was not infallible and did not lord over the other apostles, why would/should the successor to Peter through apostolic succession?
I do not intend disrespect - I actually retain an open mind on this important issue and continue to study and pray about it - but that is the central issue at stake. Denying communion to those Christians with a pure heart and with full devotion to Christ because they, with the earnestly believed assistance of the Holy Spirit, do not suscribe to the authority of the Pope, creates an unbridgeable schism between the Protestant world and the Catholic world. Perhaps that is “right” - but, perhaps it is not.
Blessings,
Brian
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nablaise
Guest
Hi Rob,
About the question of Autority vs Servant, you can also notice that Jesus was our servant (in fact the greatest servant) and yet the King (in fact the greatest king). He gave us a command which we have to obey if we are to be saved so this makes him a big authority, Lord.
The Church is of the realm of Love not of this world. So in the Church one need to get a new approch of authority and service, to view it through love. It is in this sense that God commands childreen to obey parents while he expects parents to serve their childreen, etc…
It is this same mentality which is in the Church and the papacy. A shepeard lords over the sheeps but if you look at it through love you will see that this is a lordship of service. Jesus commanded the apostles to feed his lambs and woe to them if they don’t do it. And woe to the lambs if they don’t obey their shepeards. The same way woe to childreen if they don’t obey to their parents.
In all this we see the great importance of faith. Without faith childreen would not obey fallible parents, lambs would not follow their shepeards. But in the Church there is even a more great assurance for our faith because Jesus is God and promised it infallibility.
So the issue here is to understand the meaning of words such as ‘sin, infallibility, authority’.
Popes are fallible men who are sometimes infallible. You need to understand that ‘sometimes’ when they are infallible.
Peter was called to confirm his brethren. Paul knew it. So do other bishops in relation the popes. Yet they can give him counsel etc like Paul did to Peter. The same way a wife can councel her husband or a child his parent.
As I said it is by contemplating even more the spirit of love that once get to understand all this.
Even in the secular world, Kings have counsellors. The counsellors can rebuke the kings knowing very well that the King has the last word.
It is a matter of belief in the God who is Love and Truth.
About SIN, the cathechism explains nearly everythign in specially the 10 commandments. For example in the first commandment we realise that it includes obedience to the Church. How can we know who God is if the Church did not tell us who he is? How can we obey the commandements if we don’t understand them, how can we understand them unless the one who gave them to us explains them to us?
An other thing we need to notice is that ‘belief’ in the Holy Spirits includes belief in the Church and its infallibility. If we believe in What Christ said of his Church and that God the Holy Spirits run the Church then it will not be hard to understand and trust the Church.
That’s why one saint said: “whoever does not have the Church as his mother can not have God as his Father”.
It is because we know God because the Church (our Mother) told us about him. She also told us that God is a Father and she have lots of details about this if we approch her and listens.
So just as we are born with the sins of our parents even though we did not commit them ourselves. The same way, protestant christian are born with the sins of their parents (reformers). They may seem to have a pure heart enough to receive the Eucharist, but there are somethings lacking.
The Church teaches that people who are not in the Church because of not fault of their own, or through invencible ignorance could also be saved. So the fact of refusing them the Eucharist is not to prevent them from salvation or more grace but to get them to grow up in faith and achieve what I can may be call the ‘age’ of communion.
St. Paul tells us about this growing up in faith. He talks about some being babes others being adults etc… So there is a growth process in Faith. Just because a person have not achieved a certain level of growth it does not mean that he can’t be saved…
Also, I can say that protestant who would like to share communion with catholics don’t know what the Eucharist is. If they knew they would be already catholics. And if they don’t believe it is what Catholics believe it is, why would they won’t to share it? Isn’t this a sign of childshness?
If the Eucharist is also meant for those who share the same belief wouldn’t it be deshonest, sin to share it when you don’t share the same belief.
I hope by now you can see the need of purity in truth and love that is required to partake the Eucharist.
And it can also be understood why catholics who don’t believe what the Church teaches fully are also excommunicating themselves and calling curses upon themselves when they go to communion. Because they are in state of sin. In a sens they are liars, deshonest in their heart and thus in a sens they are adding or substrating to what is written in the book of Revelation and facing the consequences…
God bless
About the question of Autority vs Servant, you can also notice that Jesus was our servant (in fact the greatest servant) and yet the King (in fact the greatest king). He gave us a command which we have to obey if we are to be saved so this makes him a big authority, Lord.
The Church is of the realm of Love not of this world. So in the Church one need to get a new approch of authority and service, to view it through love. It is in this sense that God commands childreen to obey parents while he expects parents to serve their childreen, etc…
It is this same mentality which is in the Church and the papacy. A shepeard lords over the sheeps but if you look at it through love you will see that this is a lordship of service. Jesus commanded the apostles to feed his lambs and woe to them if they don’t do it. And woe to the lambs if they don’t obey their shepeards. The same way woe to childreen if they don’t obey to their parents.
In all this we see the great importance of faith. Without faith childreen would not obey fallible parents, lambs would not follow their shepeards. But in the Church there is even a more great assurance for our faith because Jesus is God and promised it infallibility.
So the issue here is to understand the meaning of words such as ‘sin, infallibility, authority’.
Popes are fallible men who are sometimes infallible. You need to understand that ‘sometimes’ when they are infallible.
Peter was called to confirm his brethren. Paul knew it. So do other bishops in relation the popes. Yet they can give him counsel etc like Paul did to Peter. The same way a wife can councel her husband or a child his parent.
As I said it is by contemplating even more the spirit of love that once get to understand all this.
Even in the secular world, Kings have counsellors. The counsellors can rebuke the kings knowing very well that the King has the last word.
It is a matter of belief in the God who is Love and Truth.
About SIN, the cathechism explains nearly everythign in specially the 10 commandments. For example in the first commandment we realise that it includes obedience to the Church. How can we know who God is if the Church did not tell us who he is? How can we obey the commandements if we don’t understand them, how can we understand them unless the one who gave them to us explains them to us?
An other thing we need to notice is that ‘belief’ in the Holy Spirits includes belief in the Church and its infallibility. If we believe in What Christ said of his Church and that God the Holy Spirits run the Church then it will not be hard to understand and trust the Church.
That’s why one saint said: “whoever does not have the Church as his mother can not have God as his Father”.
It is because we know God because the Church (our Mother) told us about him. She also told us that God is a Father and she have lots of details about this if we approch her and listens.
So just as we are born with the sins of our parents even though we did not commit them ourselves. The same way, protestant christian are born with the sins of their parents (reformers). They may seem to have a pure heart enough to receive the Eucharist, but there are somethings lacking.
The Church teaches that people who are not in the Church because of not fault of their own, or through invencible ignorance could also be saved. So the fact of refusing them the Eucharist is not to prevent them from salvation or more grace but to get them to grow up in faith and achieve what I can may be call the ‘age’ of communion.
St. Paul tells us about this growing up in faith. He talks about some being babes others being adults etc… So there is a growth process in Faith. Just because a person have not achieved a certain level of growth it does not mean that he can’t be saved…
Also, I can say that protestant who would like to share communion with catholics don’t know what the Eucharist is. If they knew they would be already catholics. And if they don’t believe it is what Catholics believe it is, why would they won’t to share it? Isn’t this a sign of childshness?
If the Eucharist is also meant for those who share the same belief wouldn’t it be deshonest, sin to share it when you don’t share the same belief.
I hope by now you can see the need of purity in truth and love that is required to partake the Eucharist.
And it can also be understood why catholics who don’t believe what the Church teaches fully are also excommunicating themselves and calling curses upon themselves when they go to communion. Because they are in state of sin. In a sens they are liars, deshonest in their heart and thus in a sens they are adding or substrating to what is written in the book of Revelation and facing the consequences…
God bless
E
emeraldcoast
Guest
I just wanted to add that at my Episcopal Church, we always(can’t think of when we don’t) say the Confession of Sin before Communion which I believe follows what Brian was speaking of with having a pure heart …
For those that don’t know what the Confession of Sin says here you go from the BCP page 360-
Priest and People say-
Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent, for the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen
Priest says-
Almight God have mercy on you, forgive you all your sins through our Lord Jesus Christ, strengthen you in all goodness, and by the power of the Holy Spirit keep you in eternal life. Amen.
Following this is sign of Peace which is followed by Communion.
God Bless!
C
Clairdelune_89
Guest
Thanks for all the responses everyone. I asked these questions out of love for Jesus in the Eucharist, because I would not knowingly let some one desecrate his sacred body and blood, and because I am a new member of the Catholic church and am not certain which churches are in communion with who, which churches are special exceptions, and things like that.
I talked with my friend a bit more, and finally getting some more information from him, I found out he is going to become a member of an Anglican use church. If only he had said so in the begining!
Thanks again for the help!
I talked with my friend a bit more, and finally getting some more information from him, I found out he is going to become a member of an Anglican use church. If only he had said so in the begining!
Thanks again for the help!
T
thirdn6
Guest
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grandfather
Guest
If the question were put to all the Anglican/Episcopal clergy in the world were asked whether the women who were ordained as priests were validly ordained priest I suspect the overwhelming majority would say they were. They are being ordained by bishops, or people who have that title given them in the Anglican Church. A recent article reported that well over 50% of those being ordained now are women.
You say that these ordinations are phony, and I am sure there is an element within Anglicanism that agrees with you, but there is no stopping this train now. How is it decided within this religion which side of the argument is right? The answer is sit back and watch the theater taking place at Lambeth right now. There is no authority. There is a riot going on. A good number of bishops never showed up and are declaring themselves out of communion. The TAC is overboard. What is left are some liberals and conservatives slugging it out with Rowan making senseless statments desperately pleading for some kind of compromise that will patch things up for a bit. It is in a shambles.
Isn’t the visible head of this church supposed to be the Brittish monarch?
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Peter_J
Guest
Yes. But also one cannot receive communion if one does not believe it to be the body and blood of Christ. A Protestant might be completely free from sin and yet not believe what the Catholic Church believes regarding the Eucharist, and therefore not permitted to receive communion in a Catholic church.
P
Peter_J
Guest
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GKC
Guest
The visible governor of the Church of England is the monarch, yes. The Church of England, OTOH, is not the totality of world Anglicanism. (This is reminiscent of the first post I ever made, anywhere, about 10 years ago, to some friendly RCS who had some inaccurate ideas about the world of Anglicanism).
And I’m one of the sort of Anglican who left the ship, too, beginning over 30 years ago. If the train is not stoppable, one changes trains. I sit back and watch the on-going train wreck with a sense of detachment.
It is sad.
GKC
posterus traditus Anglicanus
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GKC
Guest
As I suspected.Thanks for all the responses everyone. I asked these questions out of love for Jesus in the Eucharist, because I would not knowingly let some one desecrate his sacred body and blood, and because I am a new member of the Catholic church and am not certain which churches are in communion with who, which churches are special exceptions, and things like that.
I talked with my friend a bit more, and finally getting some more information from him, I found out he is going to become a member of an Anglican use church. If only he had said so in the begining!
Thanks again for the help!
GKC
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