Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church recognized by Vatican?

[H_M]

My father will soon be ordained a priest in the Anglo-Lutheran Church, which has a website here. The ALCC officially holds that Luther never intended to split from Rome, and therefore all Lutherans are in “temporary involuntary seperation” from Rome. They professes to be working toward “full visible reunion with the Catholic Church.”

To anyone’s knowlege, has the ALCC been in contact with the Vatican, or has the Vatican ever acknowledged them?

 

[Will_B]

My father will soon be ordained a priest in the Anglo-Lutheran Church, which has a website here. The ALCC officially holds that Luther never intended to split from Rome, and therefore all Lutherans are in “temporary involuntary seperation” from Rome. They professes to be working toward “full visible reunion with the Catholic Church.”

To anyone’s knowlege, has the ALCC been in contact with the Vatican, or has the Vatican ever acknowledged them?

After reading the link given, it seems this church is not in communion with Rome… I know a lot of Anglican churches are seeking communion with Rome, and this church maybe doing the same.

Like the opening of the link said “All Roman Catholics are Catholic, but not all Catholics are Roman”

 

[Angainor]

My father will soon be ordained a priest in the Anglo-Lutheran Church, which has a website here. The ALCC officially holds that Luther never intended to split from Rome, and therefore all Lutherans are in “temporary involuntary seperation” from Rome. They professes to be working toward “full visible reunion with the Catholic Church.”

To anyone’s knowlege, has the ALCC been in contact with the Vatican, or has the Vatican ever acknowledged them?

That is a long story. A 500 year old story. “Temporary involuntary separation” is the story of Lutheran/Roman Catholic relations from the beginning.

Has the Vatican ever acknowledged them? I’d say that is pretty much what the “involuntary” part is all about.

 

[Peter_J]

My father will soon be ordained a priest in the Anglo-Lutheran Church, which has a website here. The ALCC officially holds that Luther never intended to split from Rome, and therefore all Lutherans are in “temporary involuntary seperation” from Rome. They professes to be working toward “full visible reunion with the Catholic Church.”

To anyone’s knowlege, has the ALCC been in contact with the Vatican, or has the Vatican ever acknowledged them?

I haven’t been able to find anything online that specifically mentions dialogue between them and the Catholic Church; but I note that wikipedia say that “The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church accepts Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility”.

 

[grandfather]

My father will soon be ordained a priest in the Anglo-Lutheran Church, which has a website here. The ALCC officially holds that Luther never intended to split from Rome, and therefore all Lutherans are in “temporary involuntary seperation” from Rome. They professes to be working toward “full visible reunion with the Catholic Church.”

To anyone’s knowlege, has the ALCC been in contact with the Vatican, or has the Vatican ever acknowledged them?

So they are Protrstant Catholics. That’s a good one.

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. Congratulations on your father’s upcoming ordination.

 

[Fuerza]

I haven’t been able to find anything online that specifically mentions dialogue between them and the Catholic Church; but I note that wikipedia say that “The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church accepts Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility”.

If that is in fact true, then that begs the question: Why are they only working towards full communion with the Catholic Church? If they believe in primacy and infallibility, then there is really nothing to work on. They should either formally submit a petition to Rome or simply convert.

 

[H_M]

Thanks all for the replies. I guess I’m really wondering if the ALCC has taken any concrete action toward reunification, or if it is all talk and wishful thinking. I appreciate the best wishes for my father’s ordination, but I am still conflicted. He has wished for ordination for a long time in various Lutheran/Episcopal/Anglo-Catholic denominations, and finally found one willing to grant it. He freely admits the ALCC is merely a means to an end, and he does not hold their view regarding papal supremacy, infallibility, purgatory, etc. His parish will be high church Anglo-Catholic, not Roman or Lutheran. I sent an anonymous email to the bishop who will be ordaining him, and the bishop confirms that my father will be ordained according to the (Roman Catholic) Sacramentary, complete with all the vows and doctrinal acceptances that requires. However, he has received permission to celebrate Mass according to the Anglican Missal

The ALCC claims to have valid succession through the Duarte Costa line, so even if I accept my father is validly ordained, wouldn’t his Mass be considered invalid (from RC perspective) because of incorrect form? I converted to Rome 14 years ago, and the issue of Communion reception comes up every time I visit my parents. So you see how this complicates matters.

 

[grandfather]

He has wished for ordination for a long time in various Lutheran/Episcopal/Anglo-Catholic denominations, and finally found one willing to grant it. He freely admits the ALCC is merely a means to an end, and he does not hold their view regarding papal supremacy, infallibility, purgatory, etc.

.

If his desired end is being an ordained minister of some sort and he does not believe in the doctrines of the church he is accepting ordination from this is a serious problem. It is being a hypocrit and disinegenuous. It is a lie. It is spiritually and morally disordered.

As a Catholic you can not receive Communion in any Church that Rome defines as non-Catholic, or having valid orders and sacraments. The claim to valid orders must be recognized or acknowledged by your hierarchy not someone elses. Three women were ordained in Boston and claim to be valid priests. Does the claim make it true? Would you receive there or even go there?

If your father pressures you to receive in his services tell him the decision is Rome’s not yours. If you do receive there you acknowledge their claims of valid orders, sacraments, etc. As a lay Catholic that is not your role.

When the Vatican or your bishop says they are Catholic you are free to participate in their sacraments. Your father should understand that laymen accept the authoirty of their bishops regarding who is and isn’t in full communion with them.

 

[IAGladfelter]

If that is in fact true, then that begs the question: Why are they only working towards full communion with the Catholic Church? If they believe in primacy and infallibility, then there is really nothing to work on. They should either formally submit a petition to Rome or simply convert.

In the next few weeks, the ALCC will be filing a formal petition for entry into the Catholic Church in watever form is most practical: as a prelature similar to Opus Dei or a priestly society similar to the SSPX and Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.

• Irl A. Gladfelter,C.S.P., D.D.
  Metropolitan Archbishop, ALCC

 

[IAGladfelter]

The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church does not claim to be Protestant in any way, shape or form. The Reformation was a catastrophe of epic proportions. It is time to recognize that and come home to Rome.

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter

 

[IAGladfelter]

I haven’t been able to find anything online that specifically mentions dialogue between them and the Catholic Church; but I note that wikipedia say that “The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church accepts Papal Primacy and Papal Infallibility”.

A dialogue has been going on. Incidentally, all clergy of the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church have recently signed the Mandatum - including the transitional deacons. This is now also required for pustulants.

• Irl Gladfelter

 

[IAGladfelter]

That is a long story. A 500 year old story. “Temporary involuntary separation” is the story of Lutheran/Roman Catholic relations from the beginning.

I noticed a link / mention of Luther’s Small Catechism on this posting. The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church (ALCC) only accepts Luther’s Small Catechism " to the extent that it is in accordance with authentic Catholic faith, doctrine, order, and spirituality as defined by the Magisterium." That isn’t very much." The ALCC catechizes using RCIA materials, and teaches out of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Specifically for RCIA classes, we use the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and supplemental RCIA material.

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter
  MEtropolitan Archbishop, ALCC

 

[IAGladfelter]

After reading the link given, it seems this church is not in communion with Rome… I know a lot of Anglican churches are seeking communion with Rome, and this church maybe doing the same.

We are.

• Irl Gladfelter

Like the opening of the link said “All Roman Catholics are Catholic, but not all Catholics are Roman”

Thanks.

In addition to Wikipedia, check out the ALCC’s new national website, which went on line just last week: anglolutherancatholic.org .

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter

 

[IAGladfelter]

To those who have questions about the apostolic lineages of the ALCC: Under Catholic Canon Law, our Orders are “valid but illicit.” They are illicit because of the absence of a Papal Mandate. All that is needed to legitimate them is to enter the Catholic Church and take the oath of obedience to the Pope.

The ALCC’s clergy are ordained in more than 20 separate lineages including the Duarte Costa line of the Rebiban (or Vatican) Succession, the Dutch Old Catholic succession among others. All except two Anglican lines (Seabury and White) have been individually ruled to be technically valid by various Popes.

In the meantime, the ALCC does meet the standards for a True Particular Church as defined by Second Vatican Council’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church: Lumen Gentium 26 (ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2CHURCH.HTM); and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 312, 830-833, vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM .)

Incidentally, the ALCC is asking nothing of Rome. It has already freely, of its own accord, accepted the entire faith, order, worship, spirituality, etc. of the Catholic Church. All the ALCC wants is to be able to come home and create a structure in which some of the culture of the Lutheran and Anglican traditions which do not confllict in any way with the Magisterium might be preserved to facilitate the return of large numbers of Lutherans and Anglicans to the Catholic Church. Think of the ALCC as “counter-reformational.” One of the mottos on the ALCC’s new website is this: “Reuniting the Body of Christ one Church at a time.”

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter

 

[grandfather]

In the next few weeks, the ALCC will be filing a formal petition for entry into the Catholic Church in watever form is most practical: as a prelature similar to Opus Dei or a priestly society similar to the SSPX and Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.

• Irl A. Gladfelter,C.S.P., D.D.
  Metropolitan Archbishop, ALCC

That is good news. We all desire unity. For lay Catholics they can wait and see what Rome decides. The man in question told his son he does not believe in the doctrines of the ALCC, but just wants to be officially ordained by someone. He would accept ordination in a religion he does not believe. If you are a bishop, or metropolitan archbishop, and validly consecrated as your title presumes then Rome will figure that out for us.

 

[grandfather]

The Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church does not claim to be Protestant in any way, shape or form. The Reformation was a catastrophe of epic proportions. It is time to recognize that and come home to Rome.

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter

Amen!

 

[grandfather]

In the meantime, the ALCC does meet the standards for a True Particular Church as defined by Second Vatican Council’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church: Lumen Gentium 26 (ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V2CHURCH.HTM); and the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 312, 830-833, vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P29.HTM .)

I hope you are right. Unity is a divine command. Lay Catholics have a job description in a sense. Deciding that separated groups are Catholic or not is above our job title. So it does not matter what I think, or you think, to a layman. However, I don’t understand why groups want to be recognized as Catholic under their terms. Why would a group that recognizes the Reformation was a disaster seek to retain its trappings? Why not say, we would like to be Catholic and be the same as everyone else and receive no special treatment. The traditions you want to keep were developed apart from the Church, after the Reformation. This is different from the traditions the Maronites say, that existed from and devloped from the beginning.

 

[IAGladfelter]

That is good news. We all desire unity. For lay Catholics they can wait and see what Rome decides. The man in question told his son he does not believe in the doctrines of the ALCC, but just wants to be officially ordained by someone. He would accept ordination in a religion he does not believe. If you are a bishop, or metropolitan archbishop, and validly consecrated as your title presumes then Rome will figure that out for us.

I have talked extensively with the man in question, and spoke to him today. He does in fact accept the doctrines of the ALCC (Roman Catholicism) including those his “son” mentioned.

Blessings,

• Irl Gladfelter

 

[IAGladfelter]

I hope you are right. . . . Why would a group that recognizes the Reformation was a disaster seek to retain its trappings? Why not say, we would like to be Catholic and be the same as everyone else and receive no special treatment. The traditions you want to keep were developed apart from the Church, after the Reformation.

The traditions: the music of Bach and Vaugh-n-Williams being just two examples, styles of architecture, etc. “sights and sounds” and other superficial , cultural things only which have nothing to do with doctrine are the only things the ALCC thinks are worth retaining. We would like to be Catholic and be the same as everyone else.

Blessings,

• Irl