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JKirkLVNV
Guest
That’s the trap I have to fight falling into, confusing the EF (which WAS the Mass for centuries) with some of the advocates FOR the EF. Sometimes, they are, in actuality, the EF’s worst enemies.
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S
Sure
Guest
I know a few of people who are very conservative minded…as in they know Latin, understand Thomas Aquinas, attend daily Mass, and got degrees from places like Thomas Aquinas College in California or Christendom College, yet they ALWAYS associate the word “tridentine” and “traditional” with “schismatic.” It’s a bad (but very common) association.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Yes, VERY common. Sad when we have so much common ground. But if you suggest (as has been done) that with a few minor changes or reforms and done in the vernacular, we should have the EF as the single form of the Latin rite, they start foaming at the mouth, hurling anathemas at the suggestion of the vernacular or one confietor (for example).
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Dempsey1919
Guest
People SHOULD NOT associate the Extraordinary Form of the Mass with schismatics. They should associate it with the Saints who faithfully celebrated it for 15 centuries.
Sadly, many who advocate this Mass do more harm than good. They make people wary of this great ritual. However, many liberals and dissenters attack the Tridentine Mass and do all they can to subvert it. They want people to associate it with bad things because this stops it from growing in popularity.
The Tridentine Mass needs to rid itself of stigma. The only way this will happen is if faithful Catholics promote and endorse its use. I personally encourage all to attend this Mass. Even once a month is good. This is a treasure that we should all come to know and love.
We as faithful traditionalists should do all we can to assure others that love for this liturgy does not make you a schismatic.
Sadly, many who advocate this Mass do more harm than good. They make people wary of this great ritual. However, many liberals and dissenters attack the Tridentine Mass and do all they can to subvert it. They want people to associate it with bad things because this stops it from growing in popularity.
The Tridentine Mass needs to rid itself of stigma. The only way this will happen is if faithful Catholics promote and endorse its use. I personally encourage all to attend this Mass. Even once a month is good. This is a treasure that we should all come to know and love.
We as faithful traditionalists should do all we can to assure others that love for this liturgy does not make you a schismatic.
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Sure
Guest
Amen!
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cavanlass
Guest
To those who have/are considering joining SSPX or any other group outside the church (they TRULY are outside the church), please, I beg you, DO NOT DO IT! While it may seem the right move at the time, believe me, it will be the cause of heartache and confusion as time passes, not to mention you have left the barque of Peter.
I say this from my own experience. When you sit in Mass and listen to the priest advise all the men of the church, (most of who have large families who must sit across the ailse for the mother to care for) that they should leave all and follow the religious vocation–that women who wear jean jackets are lesbians–everyone but them (SSPX) are going to hell–on and on and on—this is NOT Catholic teaching! Don’t sell your soul for a Mass.
I say this from my own experience. When you sit in Mass and listen to the priest advise all the men of the church, (most of who have large families who must sit across the ailse for the mother to care for) that they should leave all and follow the religious vocation–that women who wear jean jackets are lesbians–everyone but them (SSPX) are going to hell–on and on and on—this is NOT Catholic teaching! Don’t sell your soul for a Mass.
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HenryV
Guest
We might think in our minds that most things in Church are now better. The dissenters are still out there spreading confusion among the people of God, and they are as audacious as ever.Amen!
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Silver_Thread
Guest
Talk about formation of priests’. Get a load of this one. I was talkin to a young seminarian who was about to be ordained that year. (Is a priest now) We were discussing various problems in the church…mass…teachings etc. He said words to this effect, " Oh I just go along with what they tell me in the seminary. It’s the best way to get through. Being a priest is not a bad job if you can get it." WOW!!! I was dumbfounded. And so goes the formation of priests. At least in his case. God Help Him!
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HenryV
Guest
May God give us another Saint Pius X.
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chrisb
Guest
Grace and Peace,
In the past, I have shared a great deal of this anguish and misery over the state of the Roman Catholic Church. So much so that I began pursuing Orthodox Christian Catechesis only to find liberal theology within it’s ranks as well.
What is a Christian to do?
In the past, I have shared a great deal of this anguish and misery over the state of the Roman Catholic Church. So much so that I began pursuing Orthodox Christian Catechesis only to find liberal theology within it’s ranks as well.
What is a Christian to do?
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Or John Paul the Great. But I have great faith in Pope Benedict, not to mention the promise of Christ that the Church will not fail.
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Sure
Guest
Certainly, the dissenters are out there but they are in a losing battle. And as they lose they will become more desparate, so we must continue fighting. But it is good to recognize that there is hope and that good changes are occurring all the time. Just look at Catholic Answers and the thousands who learn the Truth through their website! It didn’t even exist 10 years ago.
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Image_of_God
Guest
I am also in the state in which you are in, Caeser. I have also thought of leaving the Church. I have been wanting to comment on the increasing liberalism entering the Church, but I have remain silent because of being attacked or made fun of. But I often call to mind the condition of the Church before the Council of Trent. It was in a state much worse than it is today, especially when it was the hierachy doing the bad. Think often of those people who left the Church and those who stayed with her in her suffering, and sought to change things around and became great saints: St. Teresa of Avila, St. Ignatius of Loyola, St. Francis de Sales, St. Pius V, St. Charles Borromeo, etc. Do not fear for God is always with his Church. If he could turn it around then, he will do it again. Just watch and see.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The only thing we can do is pray for them, offer almsgiving, and sacrifices, do a Holy Hour of in front of the Blessed Sacrament. These disobedient priests and bishops who fall prey to homosexual rights, abortion, women priesthood, and others, have lukewarm hearts. We cannot change their hearts and mind. We must rely on God to pray for their conversion.
Complain all you want, but you too must take the proper action to correct their errors.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
JKirk, what gets lost in these discussions is that there are still quite a few of us who grew up with the EF and we’re not dead yet. This is the Mass of my parents, my grandparents, my great-grandparents, etc. For some of us, the transition to the NO was traumatic. It was not a gradual transition from the TLM to the NO, it was a pruning of massive proportions and it was quite abrupt…less than two years. I quit attending Mass for several years during the 70s because I was aghast at what had happened.
In 1983, I was invited to sing in our cathedral choir. At that time we still sang Latin motets, the Asperges before Mass, etc. In 1984 we got a new pastor. Out went Latin in toto. We went from the St. Gregory hymnal to the 1940 Episcopalian hymnal. So what you would get with a translation of the TLM would be pretty much what I experienced for, oh, some eight or nine years…a “high church” Anglican type mass. My Irish ancestors who had to attend the TLM behind hedge rows would no doubt be rolling in their graves.
I’m with Caesar. I’m in anguish and misery for the state of HMC too. Our bishop stated in our diocesan newspaper “I acknowledge the Motu Proprio”. (You do know what that means in bureaucrateese, don’t you?). Then we have that incident in San Francisco…Miserere nobis, Domine.
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stmaria
Guest
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Take a look at these photos. If this doesn’t turn your stomach then nothing will. This would NEVER happen in the Traditional Mass. Of course this doesn’t happen every day, but how can this ever happen?
renewamerica.us/columns/abbott/070619
And how does this Mass in Holland happen and why hasn’t there been an immediate response from the Church?
"In Nijmegen, Holland, in the church of the Augustinian friars, each Sunday the Mass is concelebrated by a Protestant and a Catholic, with one presiding over the liturgy of the Word and the sermon, and the other over the liturgy of the Eucharist, in alternation. The Catholic is almost always a layperson, and is often a woman. For the Eucharistic prayer, the texts of the missal are passed over in favor of texts composed by the former Jesuit Huub Oosterhuis. The bread and wine are shared by all. "
chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/170066?eng=y
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otjm
Guest
Well, for starters, try following Christ every day. Try picking up your cross, and when it has been too heavy and you have dropped it, pick it up again.Grace and Peace,
In the past, I have shared a great deal of this anguish and misery over the state of the Roman Catholic Church. So much so that I began pursuing Orthodox Christian Catechesis only to find liberal theology within it’s ranks as well.
What is a Christian to do?
Try saying even a part of the Liturgy of the Hours.
Start reading Scripture.
And after you have your prayer life in order, try working on a soup line regularly, or visit an Assisted Living Center; or work with someone in Right To Life or a similar organization, or a hospice for those dying from AIDS.
Whatsoever you do for the least of these, you do for Me.
You are not going to change the Church; nor the diocese, nor even you own parish, nor even your brother or sister’s attitude. You are called to be Christ to others, and there are plenty of ways to do it without losing your faith over what Father So and So or Sister Whats Her Name or Bishop Whoever or Theologian Speculate said or did, or didn’t. Do your part, and let God do His.
Agonizing over things you have no control over or infuence on is not much different than a great Pity Party. What you do have control over is your choices, and each day you ahve a myriad of choices. focus on them offer it up and pray; and then back up your prayer by doing.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I’m troubled, too! Devotees of the TLM are not singularly alone in their distaste and distress over what occurs in the Church. But I take hope in something Dr. Thomas Howard, an evangelical, then Anglican, then Catholic C.S. Lewis scholar. He and his wife were recently on “The Journey Home.” I’m paraphrasing: “Anything as old and as huge as the Catholic Church is bound to be, to an extent, a side show riddled with horrors. But no matter how much she paints herself and plays the harlot, Christ still insists that She is His Spotless Bride.”
With Juliana of Norwich, I honestly believe that “all will be well and all manner of things will be well.”
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otjm
Guest
With no disrespect to you, when I read posts similar to yours, I wonde at how old you are. Liberalism is not increasing in the Church; if anything, it has been decreasing for the last 10 to 15 years. I suspect you are fairly young, and are only beginning to see what is going on around you, and mistaking that it is on the increase, when what is on the increase is your awareness.
Another issue is presuming that what one sees around oneself is the status quo. Some areas are more liberal than others; some areas are more problematic than others, and if one is in a problematic area, it is all too easy to presumt that all other areas are the same.
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Image_of_God
Guest
I cannot say much since I have not been around long. And I respect you for correcting me. But, what do you mean “what is on the increase is [my] awareness?”
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