Animal death before The Fall?

[SD_Catholic]

Does the Catholic Church hold a position on the idea of animal death before the fall of Adam and Eve It seems a reality that plants must have died, but I can’t seem to find a definite answer on whether or not animals did… some say yes some say no. Some say if God made a perfect world than they couldn’t have, some have said the death of animals was only for a greater good at the time. I was just wondering if the Church had a specific teaching on this matter. Thanks

SD

 

[Enoch]

I’ll take a stab at it. The Church teaches that God created only man in His perfect image. Which means man would be perfect as He is perfect and would live forever here on earth.

As far as other living things, God created them good, as to say, they perfectly fulfill the purpose for which they are intended, but they are not created in His perfect image. Therefore, other living things have never been excluded from an earthly death.

Man is the only creation of God that has failed to be “good”.

 

[thistle]

I’ll take a stab at it. The Church teaches that God created only man in His perfect image. Which means man would be perfect as He is perfect and would **live forever here on earth. **
As far as other living things, God created them good, as to say, they perfectly fulfill the purpose for which they are intended, but they are not created in His perfect image. Therefore, other living things have never been excluded from an earthly death.

Man is the only creation of God that has failed to be “good”.

We will definitely live forever as we are the only creatures God created with immortal souls. However, that does not mean we will live forever on earth. We will end up eternally in Heaven (maybe with a stay in purgatory first) or in Hell.
The planet earth will be gone in a few billion years so nobody will be living here.

 

[Hastrman]

We will definitely live forever as we are the only creatures God created with immortal souls. However, that does not mean we will live forever on earth. We will end up eternally in Heaven (maybe with a stay in purgatory first) or in Hell.
The planet earth will be gone in a few billion years so nobody will be living here.

Um…the laws of physics will be changed by the bodily resurrection (A), considering that some of the lesser laws of metaphysics will be changed (form and matter cannot normally be reunified in the same creature, once separated).

(B), it is in the Creed that we will be resurrected in the body. Bodies have to occupy space, and heaven is not a place.

I would actually say that the last part of A, above, about form and matter being separated, is what gives the answer. Animals can die because their forms can be separated from their matter–their body can be separated from what makes it, it–but it may not have always been that way. What if the mortality of matter was caused by Satan’s fall?

See, that makes more sense, because if the mortality of matter, too, was not originally in the plan, then the resurrection can revert things to how they were even before (or without, really, since angels exist outside time) Satan’s fall. Which would make it no longer necessary that matter be mortal.

 

[Lazerlike42]

The key is that any Catholic who believes in evolution is going to have to believe in animal death before the fall.

 

[SD_Catholic]

The key is that any Catholic who believes in evolution is going to have to believe in animal death before the fall.

I think there may be types of evolutionary theories that would allow for that not to be the case, but I think you’re right that it would be hard pressed to make sense of any sort of evolution without that being true. Although opinions are welcome my main question is whether or not the Church teaches one way or the other on this subject?

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

I’ll take a stab at it. The Church teaches that God created only man in His perfect image. Which means man would be perfect as He is perfect and would live forever here on earth.

As far as other living things, God created them good, as to say, they perfectly fulfill the purpose for which they are intended, but they are not created in His perfect image. Therefore, other living things have never been excluded from an earthly death.

Man is the only creation of God that has failed to be “good”.

Thanks… but is this your opinion as far as other living things go or is this a Church teaching? I tend to feel this is probably true but wanted to know if there was an actual teaching on it.

SD

 

[StCsDavid]

True or false…Man has a soul?

If you answered true, then you missed it. Man is a soul, an incarnate one. His eternal soul is part of his nature, fallen though it may be. As such man doesn’t die, though his body in this fallen existence will one day fail him, and he will be without a body until the resurrection. Nevertheless, his being never ceases to exist.

True or false…A cow is a soul?

Hopefully you answered false. A cow has a sensitive soul as part of its nature, but it is not an eternal being. There might be cows in Heaven, but it won’t be the cow you see the pasture, today. That cow will die and its being cease to be.

So a cow before the fall is the same as a cow after the fall. Just as a banana before the fall is the same as a banana after.

I don’t know of any official church document that addresses the OP’s question directly; however, Thomas Aquinas does a beefy treatment over the nature of the things.

 

[davidv]

True or false…Man has a soul?

If you answered true, then you missed it. Man is a soul, an incarnate one. His eternal soul is part of his nature, fallen though it may be. As such man doesn’t die, though his body in this fallen existence will one day fail him, and he will be without a body until the resurrection. Nevertheless, his being never ceases to exist.

This could be a bit misleading. Here is more of the story from the Catechism:

363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human *life *or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man. 364 The human body shares in the dignity of “the image of God”: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:

Most of us usually use “soul” in the second sense.

 

[SD_Catholic]

True or false…Man has a soul?

If you answered true, then you missed it. Man is a soul, an incarnate one. His eternal soul is part of his nature, fallen though it may be. As such man doesn’t die, though his body in this fallen existence will one day fail him, and he will be without a body until the resurrection. Nevertheless, his being never ceases to exist.

True or false…A cow is a soul?

Hopefully you answered false. A cow has a sensitive soul as part of its nature, but it is not an eternal being. There might be cows in Heaven, but it won’t be the cow you see the pasture, today. That cow will die and its being cease to be.

So a cow before the fall is the same as a cow after the fall. Just as a banana before the fall is the same as a banana after.

I don’t know of any official church document that addresses the OP’s question directly; however, Thomas Aquinas does a beefy treatment over the nature of the things.

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut… I get what you’re saying. Do you have a link for the Aquinas statement?

FYI… Evidently you haven’t been around a mad cow… They’re not that sensitive… In fact they can be outright mean:bigyikes:

SD

 

[StCsDavid]

Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut… I get what you’re saying. Do you have a link for the Aquinas statement?

FYI… Evidently you haven’t been around a mad cow… They’re not that sensitive… In fact they can be outright mean:bigyikes:

SD

I don’t have a link other than to refer you to the Summa Theologica, Prima Pars.

Yeah, probably no mad cows in Heaven…only happy ones from California. (reference to ad campaign being run here the Northwest trying to convince us that the best cheese comes from happy California cows versus the ones we raise here in Oregon)

 

[SD_Catholic]

I don’t have a link other than to refer you to the Summa Theologica, Prima Pars.

Yeah, probably no mad cows in Heaven…only happy ones from California. (reference to ad campaign being run here the Northwest trying to convince us that the best cheese comes from happy California cows versus the ones we raise here in Oregon)

lol… The only thing that could make a cow happier in CA is if they could surf… Wow what a picture

 

[Enoch]

We will definitely live forever as we are the only creatures God created with immortal souls. However, that does not mean we will live forever on earth. We will end up eternally in Heaven (maybe with a stay in purgatory first) or in Hell.
The planet earth will be gone in a few billion years so nobody will be living here.

The point I was making is that God created Adam and Eve to live forever here on earth.

 

[Enoch]

Thanks… but is this your opinion as far as other living things go or is this a Church teaching? I tend to feel this is probably true but wanted to know if there was an actual teaching on it.

SD

Don’t know of anything official. Just logically deducing based on what I know the Church does teach.

 

[thistle]

Um…the laws of physics will be changed by the bodily resurrection (A), considering that some of the lesser laws of metaphysics will be changed (form and matter cannot normally be reunified in the same creature, once separated).

(B), it is in the Creed that we will be resurrected in the body. Bodies have to occupy space, and heaven is not a place.

I would actually say that the last part of A, above, about form and matter being separated, is what gives the answer. Animals can die because their forms can be separated from their matter–their body can be separated from what makes it, it–but it may not have always been that way. What if the mortality of matter was caused by Satan’s fall?

See, that makes more sense, because if the mortality of matter, too, was not originally in the plan, then the resurrection can revert things to how they were even before (or without, really, since angels exist outside time) Satan’s fall. Which would make it no longer necessary that matter be mortal.

I have no clue what your point is or how that relates to my post which you quote.
The Church clearly teaches that only humans have immortal souls. Animals do not and they and their souls die when the animal dies.
The point of my post is that we will not live forever on earth because in about 5 billion years the planet earth will be destroyed.

 

[thistle]

Um…the laws of physics will be changed by the bodily resurrection (A), considering that some of the lesser laws of metaphysics will be changed (form and matter cannot normally be reunified in the same creature, once separated).

(B), it is in the Creed that we will be resurrected in the body. Bodies have to occupy space, and heaven is not a place.

I would actually say that the last part of A, above, about form and matter being separated, is what gives the answer. Animals can die because their forms can be separated from their matter–their body can be separated from what makes it, it–but it may not have always been that way. What if the mortality of matter was caused by Satan’s fall?

See, that makes more sense, because if the mortality of matter, too, was not originally in the plan, then the resurrection can revert things to how they were even before (or without, really, since angels exist outside time) Satan’s fall. Which would make it no longer necessary that matter be mortal.

I have no clue what your point is or how that relates to my post which you quote.
The Church clearly teaches that only humans have immortal souls. Animals do not and they and their souls die when the animal dies.
The point of my post is that we will not live forever on earth because in about 5 billion years the planet earth will be destroyed.

 

[thistle]

Um…the laws of physics will be changed by the bodily resurrection (A), considering that some of the lesser laws of metaphysics will be changed (form and matter cannot normally be reunified in the same creature, once separated).

(B), it is in the Creed that we will be resurrected in the body. Bodies have to occupy space, and heaven is not a place.

I would actually say that the last part of A, above, about form and matter being separated, is what gives the answer. Animals can die because their forms can be separated from their matter–their body can be separated from what makes it, it–but it may not have always been that way. What if the mortality of matter was caused by Satan’s fall?

See, that makes more sense, because if the mortality of matter, too, was not originally in the plan, then the resurrection can revert things to how they were even before (or without, really, since angels exist outside time) Satan’s fall. Which would make it no longer necessary that matter be mortal.

I have no clue what your point is or how that relates to my post which you quote.
The Church clearly teaches that only humans have immortal souls. Animals do not and they and their souls die when the animal dies.
The point of my post is that we will not live forever on earth because in about 5 billion years the planet earth will be destroyed.

 

[CathFaith1]

Does the Catholic Church hold a position on the idea of animal death before the fall of Adam and Eve

The Church teaching points to yes animals would have died.

Only human beings made in the image and likeness of God were offered the preternatural gifts, lost in the fall (infused knowledge; absence of concupiscence and freedom from death.

The harmony in which they had found themselves, thanks to original justice, is now destroyed: the control of the soul’s spiritual faculties over the body is shattered; the union of man and woman becomes subject to tensions, their relations henceforth marked by lust and domination. Harmony with creation is broken: visible creation has become alien and hostile to man. Because of man, creation is now subject “to its bondage to decay”. Finally, the consequence explicitly foretold for this disobedience will come true: man will “return to the ground”, for out of it he was taken. Death makes its entrance into human history.
CCC 400

 

[Newbie2]

I have no clue what your point is or how that relates to my post which you quote.
The Church clearly teaches that only humans have immortal souls. Animals do not and they and their souls die when the animal dies.
The point of my post is that we will not live forever on earth because in about 5 billion years the planet earth will be destroyed.

Is this just a rough estimate, or do you have some documentation?

 

[SD_Catholic]

The Church teaching points to yes animals would have died.

Only human beings made in the image and likeness of God were offered the preternatural gifts, lost in the fall (infused knowledge; absence of concupiscence and freedom from death.

This makes the most sense to me also, but I read an article that made reference to God saying that all animals, birds, and A & E would eat herbs as their meat. Gen. does speak of this but wasn’t sure on it’s actual meaning.

Things like this and evolution have never really concerned me that much, but a guy brought them up at Bible study the other night and it really made me wonder if the Church had a teaching on this particular subject. I know they allow for limited beliefs in evolution as long as it doesn’t interfere with Scripture or Church teachings (mainly on God’s hand in all changes that may occur and his direct implantation of the human soul).

It’s always rewarding when you’re able to share a Church teaching with a fellow Catholic or fellow Christian for that matter, but in the reversal it’s awful discouraging to leave someone hanging because you don’t know the answer to their question.

SD