Animal Rights

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Have you ever thought that the Church may have said quite a bit and you are not aware of it? If we look at the lives of the saints and the Church’s current teaching on the environment and her concern for the environment, it says tons about our moral behavior in relationship to other creatures, not just animals either.

Just some food for thought.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
i’m well aware of the Church’s teachings on this subject - that is why i’m vegan. if it is morally wrong to be cruel to animals (and that is very clear in the CCC), it is also morally wrong to pay someone else to be cruel to them, particularly when it is done from our “wants” and not our “needs.”

but the only thing people seem to hear is “mankind first, humans first, us before them.” we’ve become a selfish anthropocentric nightmare, even to the point where we kill ourselves with our own excesses.

compassion is one of those things that, when you give it freely to all living things, it grows within you, and you get more of it. when you restrict it, say, to only our species… you get even more miserly with it, and we lose compassion even for our own kind. but people are so afraid that we will put “animals equal to humans” that they ARE tightwads with their compassion, and i think that lack of compassion is evident all around us. 😦 i think st. francis would agree with me about this.
 
The Church agrees with you, that it is a false dichotomy. But some people propose such a dichotomy. For example, you have many animal rights activists that are also very pro abortion. That’s a dichotomy.
you haven’t heard me go off on pro-abortion vegans - but i do 😃

justbramble.blogspot.com/
We have environmentalists who want to protect a particular green area, but are not concerned with creating healthy and appropriate housing for the poor. If you can build housing for the poor without taking down a green area, that’s the way to go. But if you have no other place to build, then the trees have to go to make room for low cost housing for poor or elderly people.
These are the dichotomies that morality says cannot happen. Ecology has to include a Human Ecology too. One writer whom I would strongly recommend is an old mentor of mine who is now deceased, Urie Bronfenbrenner. He wrote the first great work on Human Ecology. OK, I’m biased. I thought it was great. 😃
Fraternally,
i just think people need to get out of the mindset of “subduing” and “dominioning” - even though the shepherd is superior morally and intellectually to his sheep, he serves them nonetheless and cares for them, as the strong love the weak and the powerful protect the powerless. but we are not following that model. 😊
 
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cathybramble:
I just think people need to get out of the mindset of “subduing” and “dominioning”
I agree. As soon as we start thinking of “subduing” and “dominioning” it is so easy to think we are justified in making decisions that have an impact on/involve other inhabitants of the earth from our point of view or consider that our views have extra intrinsic validity.

- Even though the shepherd is superior morally and intellectually to his sheep, he serves them nonetheless and cares for them, as the strong love the weak and the powerful protect the powerless. but we are not following that model.

I prefer to think of other inhabitants of the earth as different rather than inferior to us. We also need to remember that everything on the earth is interdependent. For example it can be a bit uncomfortable to think how much we depend on bees via pollination for food.
 
not to be quarrelsome, but do we have to eat? yes. do we have to eat meat 3x a day every day? heavens no. cruelty to animals by farming them in such horrific conditions is coming from a disordered desire for meat, eggs, and dairy. humankind is directly responsible for the suffering of billions of animals a year out of sheer gluttony. the Church says nothing about this even though it is clearly wrong.

(and don’t misunderstand - i do believe that all truth and beauty are in the Church … it’s just that she is not telling people what needs to be said when it comes to this issue).
What is cruelty really??

spaying or neutering your pet is the needless mutulation of an animal to remove some of the responsibility of pet owners. That’s cruelty, clearly.

Keeping pets indoor and eating cereal laced pet food is cruelty.

Buying a house or living in an apartment deprives animals of a place to live in there natural enviroment. That’s cruelty.

Owning a pet, removing it from it’s natural enviroment so people can derive some strange since of companionship with an animal not allowing it to live as nature intended is cruelty.

Exterminators for mice and rats is cruelty.

Exterminators for insects is cruelty. Benefiting from the removal of insects in any way as a society make you guilt of cruelty.

Everyone falls into several of those catagories. Animals have no rights, we as humans have an obligation to see that animals aren’t treated cruelly. No one has defended cruelty. Everyone understands our obligation as humans.

you making distinctions about cruelty that no one will argue against then adding you personal understand of cruelty and trying to call your opinions cruelty.

Why is that?
 
Sean Boyle:
What is cruelty really??
spaying or neutering your pet is the needless mutulation of an animal to remove some of the responsibility of pet owners. That’s cruelty, clearly.
No, its responsble pet ownership. If you can’t give a home, or KNOW you can find a responsbile home for every puppy, kitten etc your pet will have or sire then you are saving a number of animals from a short, nasty life.

Plus there are health benefits from spaying - your cat won’t die having kittens and you male dog is less likely to get killed in the road following that female dog in heat.
Keeping pets indoor and eating cereal laced pet food is cruelty.

Buying a house or living in an apartment deprives animals of a place to live in there natural enviroment. That’s cruelty.
Not ideal but it doesn’t necessary involve cruelty. Eg if the dog gets out regularly for walks or the food is healthy.
Owning a pet, removing it from it’s natural enviroment so people can derive some strange since of companionship with an animal not allowing it to live as nature intended is cruelty.
I don’t own my cats they are my companions and I hope they see me that way.
Exterminators for mice and rats is cruelty.

Exterminators for insects is cruelty. Benefiting from the removal of insects in any way as a society make you guilt of cruelty.
If I was a mouse, rat or insect I would proabably agree!
Everyone falls into several of those catagories. Animals have no rights, we as humans have an obligation to see that animals aren’t treated cruelly. No one has defended cruelty. Everyone understands our obligation as humans.
If animals don’t have any rights why do we have an obligation to see that they aren’t treated cruelly.

If not living “a la nature” is cruel towards animals maybe it is also for humans - back to nature for us and short brutish life.
 
What is cruelty really??

spaying or neutering your pet is the needless mutulation of an animal to remove some of the responsibility of pet owners. That’s cruelty, clearly.

Keeping pets indoor and eating cereal laced pet food is cruelty.

Buying a house or living in an apartment deprives animals of a place to live in there natural enviroment. That’s cruelty.

Owning a pet, removing it from it’s natural enviroment so people can derive some strange since of companionship with an animal not allowing it to live as nature intended is cruelty.

Exterminators for mice and rats is cruelty.

Exterminators for insects is cruelty. Benefiting from the removal of insects in any way as a society make you guilt of cruelty.
so… are you saying that being cruel in some cases justifies all other cruelty? you are really comparing apples and oranges in the above examples, and some of them are debatable as to being “cruel.”
Everyone falls into several of those catagories. Animals have no rights, we as humans have an obligation to see that animals aren’t treated cruelly. No one has defended cruelty. Everyone understands our obligation as humans.
you making distinctions about cruelty that no one will argue against then adding you personal understand of cruelty and trying to call your opinions cruelty.
Why is that?
what personal understanding or opinions of cruelty do i have, that you disagree with?
 
What is cruelty really??
uh,…being mean because you can?
spaying or neutering your pet is the needless mutulation of an animal to remove some of the responsibility of pet owners. That’s cruelty, clearly.
Tens of thousands of unwanted animals and strays are rounded up and ‘put down’(akakilled) here in the united states every year because some nitwit didn’t have a sense of responsibility for their animal or simply didn’t want them because the novelty wore off.Some of these stray animals merely got out and got lost.If these animals had been spayed or neutered then they wouldn’t be having so many babies.Which in turn, repeat the cycle.
Keeping pets indoor and eating cereal laced pet food is cruelty.
whatever,…:rolleyes:
Buying a house or living in an apartment deprives animals of a place to live in there natural enviroment. That’s cruelty.
So, you would rather we had thousands of unwanted pets roaming the streets in packs with no rabies or distemper shots competeing to survive?
Owning a pet, removing it from it’s natural enviroment so people can derive some strange since of companionship with an animal not allowing it to live as nature intended is cruelty.
well, I certainly wouldn’t want a polar bear for a pet:confused:
Exterminators for mice and rats is cruelty.
Lime disease, bubonic plague and rodent feces in your food …:confused:
Exterminators for insects is cruelty. Benefiting from the removal of insects in any way as a society make you guilt of cruelty.
Nile virus, swarms of africanized honey bees and wasps, large colonies of ants and termites destroyingfood and homes…:confused: :confused:
Everyone falls into several of those catagories. Animals have no rights, we as humans have an obligation to see that animals aren’t treated cruelly. No one has defended cruelty. Everyone understands our obligation as humans.
duh…
you making distinctions about cruelty that no one will argue against then adding you personal understand of cruelty and trying to call your opinions cruelty.
I’m sorry.I don’t understand this.
Why is that?
What are you trying to say?None of this is logical.
 
…]
Not ideal but it doesn’t necessary involve cruelty. Eg if the dog gets out regularly for walks or the food is healthy.
dogs are domesticated, and arguably, so are cats. 😉 rats make nice pets too, they’ve been hanging around with humankind for a very long time.

i do agree that there are some animals that do not belong in captivity whatsoever - after working with an avian rescue group i can tell you that the larger parrots shouldn’t even be bred or kept as “pets” 😦
I don’t own my cats they are my companions and I hope they see me that way.
…]
genesis 2:18 completely justifies domestication of animals as helpers and companions.
*
Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”*

moreover, that God sat back and watched to see what adam would name them all. obviously we are supposed to love and care about them.
If animals don’t have any rights why do we have an obligation to see that they aren’t treated cruelly.
…]
precisely 👍
 
Antibiotics are not therapeutics,…unless used for a curative,…so You got me on
that one.So,I’m gonna do research.🤷

(shucks-I might be wrong:blush: )
Um…therepeutics are by definition curative, (at least in intent; the outcome is not always guaranteed) and antibiotics are used as therapy, thus antibiotics are therepeutic.

Now there are instances where antibiotics and other therepeutic medications are misused, and that is quite a different matter. Antibiotics are also used prophylactically, which is a legitimate usage when used properly.

In my experience as a veterinarian, consideration of the concept of “animal rights” over the last 20+ years and in the study of Catholic moral theology, I’ve come to the following conclusions:
  1. There are the “animal rights extremists”, who claim that animals have basically the same rights as people and that if you disagree, you are a “speciest”, which is a similar concept to being a “racist”.
  2. That most people agree with and fully support the notion of “animal welfare”, which the Church supports.
  3. That many people confuse the notions of “animal rights” and “animal welfare”, and that the animal rights extremists foster this confusion to further their agenda.
  4. That many people do not understand that animals raised for food do not produce well under conditions of stress, and that there is a balance between effecient management methods that minimize stress and maximize production.
  5. That improvements in food production management are possible and desirable, balancing the need for food products with the humane treatment of the food animals. Exactly what those improvements are and how they are implimented is the subject of debate among even experts in the fields of food production management, animal behaviorists and veterinarians.
Y’all might be interested to know that the American Veterinary Medical Association has recently issued a policy statement against cosmetic tail docking and ear cropping in companion animals. For years, the AVMA has been wishy-washy on the subject, and in my opinion lacking the spine to either come out against it or for it.

I personally do not perform and never have performed cosmetic surgery on pet animals, and am pleased to see the AVMA take a stand on the issue.

By the way, declawing is still under debate, and is not considered to be a cosmetic procedure. Personally, I will council kitten owners before performing such procedures, and will only declaw a mature cat if it’s a life-or-death situation i.e. the cat is clawing the owner or the furniture and the owner will abandon or euthanize the cat unless it is declawed.

Like any other issue, most veterinarians are in the middle, with a few strictly anti-declaw under any circumstances and a few that will declaw most every cat under their care.

avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/tail_docking.asp
 
Um…therepeutics are by definition curative, (at least in intent; the outcome is not always guaranteed) and antibiotics are used as therapy, thus antibiotics are therepeutic.

Now there are instances where antibiotics and other therepeutic medications are misused, and that is quite a different matter. Antibiotics are also used prophylactically, which is a legitimate usage when used properly.
ah - being a vet, surely you are aware of the problem with resistant bacteria. 😉
In my experience as a veterinarian, consideration of the concept of “animal rights” over the last 20+ years and in the study of Catholic moral theology, I’ve come to the following conclusions:
  1. There are the “animal rights extremists”, who claim that animals have basically the same rights as people and that if you disagree, you are a “speciest”, which is a similar concept to being a “racist”.
i don’t like the term “speciest” but after watching “eathlings” i can understand where they get the term. if you have never seen it, i highly recommend it.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4093730216074063220&hl=en
  1. That most people agree with and fully support the notion of “animal welfare”, which the Church supports.
most people will tell you that they can’t be concerned about the welfare of animals until we’ve banned abortion. i’ve been round and round with my fellow catholic pro-lifers in this issue. unless we’re talking about a dog or cat, they don’t think it’s a problem… but provided it doesn’t make their meat more expensive, they’re all for it. :rolleyes:
  1. That many people confuse the notions of “animal rights” and “animal welfare”, and that the animal rights extremists foster this confusion to further their agenda.
we may not like the extremists, but they have brought many issues to light that would otherwise not be known to the public. the ONLY reason they get any support is because they are exposing some pretty heinous truths about the industry.
  1. That many people do not understand that animals raised for food do not produce well under conditions of stress, and that there is a balance between effecient management methods that minimize stress and maximize production.
yes they do produce. as long as they are alive and designed to grow lots of “meat” on them (with antibiotics and hormones, for starters), they produce, regardless of how much they suffer in the process.

“production” and “efficiency” have come to replace the whole notion of animals being living creatures. our moral responsibility is their well-being, not getting as many eggs, quarts of milk, or pounds of meat from them as possible. we have greed dictating animal welfare right now.
  1. That improvements in food production management are possible and desirable, balancing the need for food products
“need”? for meat/eggs/dairy 3x a day every day? no, i think not. animal-based food consumption (per capita) has more than doubled since 1950. we were a well-fed nation in 1950, so what does that make us today?
with the humane treatment of the food animals. Exactly what those improvements are and how they are implimented is the subject of debate among even experts in the fields of food production management, animal behaviorists and veterinarians.
well you can tell that the ones who have been bought out by agribusiness are advocating their methods. anyone else with common sense can see that packing hogs into crates that are the size of their bodies for all their lives is untenable for the welfare of the animals.

the slaughterhouse in chino that was shut down? those were california’s famous “happy dairy cows”… about half of all dairy cows are lame by the time they are “spent” – and they are “spent” very young for what their life span should be. but rather than euthanize them humanely or take better care of them, we pack them in trucks for slaughter. gotta get that last dime out of them. how can they afford to do this? well, easy. the “products of their insemination” used to make them produce more milk, replace them. what a racket.

you see, i don’t think it’s wrong to get some milk from a cow if we want a little or need it. but we have become greedy and gluttonous.
Y’all might be interested to know that the American Veterinary Medical Association has recently issued a policy statement against cosmetic tail docking and ear cropping in companion animals. For years, the AVMA has been wishy-washy on the subject, and in my opinion lacking the spine to either come out against it or for it.
I personally do not perform and never have performed cosmetic surgery on pet animals, and am pleased to see the AVMA take a stand on the issue.
By the way, declawing is still under debate, and is not considered to be a cosmetic procedure. Personally, I will council kitten owners before performing such procedures, and will only declaw a mature cat if it’s a life-or-death situation i.e. the cat is clawing the owner or the furniture and the owner will abandon or euthanize the cat unless it is declawed.
Like any other issue, most veterinarians are in the middle, with a few strictly anti-declaw under any circumstances and a few that will declaw most every cat under their care.
that’s interesting about tail docking. i got my dog from the pound - when he came to the shelter at 9 weeks old, he’d had his tail docked and dew claws removed… and was left with a belly full of worms by his original owner. i did think it was ridiculous :mad:
 
so… are you saying that being cruel in some cases justifies all other cruelty?
Nope! Animal cruelty is forbidden by law. Last time I checked, the practices of factory farm that you claim to be against are regulated by laws that are enforced. Are the laws of this land not good enough for you? There are people that break those laws thru their own free will. I am not responsible for those people nor the greed that leads them to break the law.
Here is one…
not to be quarrelsome, but do we have to eat? yes. do we have to eat meat 3x a day every day? heavens no. cruelty to animals by farming them in such horrific conditions is coming from a disordered desire for meat, eggs, and dairy. humankind is directly responsible for the suffering of billions of animals a year out of sheer gluttony. the Church says nothing about this even though it is clearly wrong.
Eating meat is somehow “disordered”… big opinion back by nothing. the two last statements tie your opinion to animal cruelty and me.

You did ask…
 
No one really listens to the Pope, on this issue and a variety of others.

My animals have souls and are happy.
Obviously some people don’t listen to the pope, but most faithful Catholics do. When the pope speaks, people listen.
 
Here is one…
Eating meat is somehow “disordered”… big opinion back by nothing. the two last statements tie your opinion to animal cruelty and me.

You did ask…
Sean. I know you were addressing this to Cathy. But, I think the “disorder” she speaks of is more along the lines of ‘addiction’. ‘Addiction’ in the sense of believing that they ‘need’ it. The truth is that people merely like it,…a lot.
Meat consumption has risen sharply over the last few decades; and that, per capita, not per populus.(is that a word?)

anyway, this in turn leads to increased demand (basic economics). Which leads to increased productivity, which leads to increasde ‘efficiency’, which leads to more callous methods (because one needs a hard heart to slaughter without remorse) of slaughter.The hard heart leads to selfish anger which leads to self-righteous indignation which leads to ,…well,…‘disordered conduct’.🤷
 
Sean. I know you were addressing this to Cathy. But, I think the “disorder” she speaks of is more along the lines of ‘addiction’. ‘Addiction’ in the sense of believing that they ‘need’ it. The truth is that people merely like it,…a lot.
Meat consumption has risen sharply over the last few decades; and that, per capita, not per populus.(is that a word?)

anyway, this in turn leads to increased demand (basic economics). Which leads to increased productivity, which leads to increasde ‘efficiency’, which leads to more callous methods (because one needs a hard heart to slaughter without remorse) of slaughter.The hard heart leads to selfish anger which leads to self-righteous indignation which leads to ,…well,…‘disordered conduct’.🤷
Following your line of thinking…

Veganism will also promote factory farming for vegetative material in people who prefer a non-meat diet, thus perpetuating “disordered conduct”

People who prefer or consume okra or asparagus out of season for their area lead the growers to more callous methods of harvest (killing plants for profit) to satisfy the “needs” of the non-meat eating consumer.

The consumer buys “in good faith”. That is were his responsibility ends. The grower has the responsibility to insure that the accepted standards involved in that “good faith” are met.

Unless you hunt or raise all of your livestock, or grow all the produce that you and your family will eat in a year; you can never guarantee that your food doesn’t fall into that same category as you describe.

We live by laws the govern that responsibility by the grower or farmer. Your argument is with the makers of law or the farmer not the consumer. As I’ve pointed out your one of the consumers also.
 
Here is one…
Eating meat is somehow “disordered”… big opinion back by nothing. the two last statements tie your opinion to animal cruelty and me.

You did ask…
i’m glad you did - if you read my post again, you see i am not saying that eating meat in itself is disordered - but thinking we “need” it 3x a day is most certainly disordered.
 
i’m glad you did - if you read my post again, you see i am not saying that eating meat in itself is disordered - but thinking we “need” it 3x a day is most certainly disordered.
If you reread my post…

I asked “so eating meat is somehow disordered?” That was a question.

Eating meat “3x a day” would be included under the idea “somehow”.

In “your opinion” how many times can one eat meat and not be disordered? The answer to this question is one of the opinions that I was speaking of in the earlier post. the opinion was implied within your statement in that post.

Who are your arguing against here, normal people that don’t eat meat at every meal or some extreme set of circumstances that may exist in some part of our society?
 
Following your line of thinking…

Veganism will also promote factory farming for vegetative material in people who prefer a non-meat diet, thus perpetuating “disordered conduct”
:confused:
it takes more vegetation and land to raise livestock than to just feed it directly to people. as it stands, most of the grain we use now IS fed to animals. so if we were feeding vegetation to people instead of to animals, we should actually need LESS of it.
People who prefer or consume okra or asparagus out of season for their area lead the growers to more callous methods of harvest (killing plants for profit) to satisfy the “needs” of the non-meat eating consumer.
The consumer buys “in good faith”. That is were his responsibility ends. The grower has the responsibility to insure that the accepted standards involved in that “good faith” are met.
Unless you hunt or raise all of your livestock, or grow all the produce that you and your family will eat in a year; you can never guarantee that your food doesn’t fall into that same category as you describe.
We live by laws the govern that responsibility by the grower or farmer. Your argument is with the makers of law or the farmer not the consumer. As I’ve pointed out your one of the consumers also.
well i guess that lets you off the hook entirely. run along now and play with the rest of the children and don’t concern yourself with issues that grownups should contend with.
 
If you reread my post…

I asked “so eating meat is somehow disordered?” That was a question.

Eating meat “3x a day” would be included under the idea “somehow”.

In “your opinion” how many times can one eat meat and not be disordered? The answer to this question is one of the opinions that I was speaking of in the earlier post. the opinion was implied within your statement in that post.

Who are your arguing against here, normal people that don’t eat meat at every meal or some extreme set of circumstances that may exist in some part of our society?
in the post you are quoting, i quoted your exact post. it was not phrased as a question. but if you are asking as a question, then the answer is still, “no, i don’t think eating meat in itself is disordered.”

what i’m arguing against is gluttony. we consume food in quantities well above what we need, at a very high cost to the animals and the environment (which in turn is harmful to other animals, including humans). i don’t know how many times a day eating meat becomes gluttony, but i will say that on average, americans consume 3X as much protein as the body needs. by contrast, world hunger is up to 1 BILLION people a year.

finally, to address your comment about normal people not eating meat products 3 times a day - as a vegan, i know that i have to consciously avoid meat and animal products in foods that i buy. anyone who is not checking labels might be surprised at how much of it they are eating, whether they know it or not. as it was before i went vegan, i thought i was eating a pretty healthy diet, but when i started paying attention to it, i realized that most of the time, i was consuming meat, dairy, AND eggs at practically every meal.
 
Following your line of thinking…

Veganism will also promote factory farming for vegetative material in people who prefer a non-meat diet, thus perpetuating “disordered conduct”
Genesis chapter 1:29 God also said, ‘Look, to you I give all the seed-bearing plants everywhere on the surface of the earth, and all the trees with seed-bearing fruit; this will be your food.
30 And to all the wild animals, all the birds of heaven and all the living creatures that creep along the ground, I give all the foliage of the plants as their food.’ And so it was.
People who prefer or consume okra or asparagus out of season for their area lead the growers to more callous methods of harvest (killing plants for profit) to satisfy the “needs” of the non-meat eating consumer.
:confused: So,…Are you suggesting that plants are sentient with an ordered nervous system, and, hence, have a soul?
The consumer buys “in good faith”. That is were his responsibility ends.
The consumer has a responsibility to see that s/he is not inadvertently contributing to the detrimental factors of the farmers methods effecting the heath of the consumer and the subsequential depletion of a sustainable food source via genetic engineering and/or non-plant based fertilizers.
The grower has the responsibility to insure that the accepted standards involved in that “good faith” are met.
yes
Unless you hunt or raise all of your livestock, or grow all the produce that you and your family will eat in a year; you can never guarantee that your food doesn’t fall into that same category as you describe.
Unless we fail to return to a more eco-friendly system of farming all of our resources will be depleted or mutated into strains of animal/vegetable mutant foods. Leading to a human version of mad cow disease.
We live by laws the govern that responsibility by the grower or farmer. Your argument is with the makers of law or the farmer not the consumer. As I’ve pointed out your one of the consumers also.
Indeed, I am. Hence my involvement in these healthy debates and my votes and petition signing and letters to congress people. How do I otherwise ensure that my food is not tainted by the waste products of the factory farms?
 
:confused:
it takes more vegetation and land to raise livestock than to just feed it directly to people. as it stands, most of the grain we use now IS fed to animals. so if we were feeding vegetation to people instead of to animals, we should actually need LESS of it. Misleading statement… The number is less than half the total output of corn, lower if you include wheat and other grains produced the gap is slightly wider. Check with the U.S. Dept of Ag. first.

well i guess that lets you off the hook entirely. run along now and play with the rest of the children and don’t concern yourself with issues that grownups should contend with.
nice compassion…

A simple “I see your point” will due in this case.

Does it let you as a consumer of vegutative material off the hook as well? Your somehow outside of the guidelines for consumership that you profess. I as a omnivore consumer must somehow be more vigilant than a herbivore in your opinion. Why is that?

Life is life, plant or animal, each is a gift for us to use…
 
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