Animal Rights

[Sean_Boyle]

in the post you are quoting, i quoted your exact post. it was not phrased as a question. but if you are asking as a question, then the answer is still, “no, i don’t think eating meat in itself is disordered.”

Sorry I missed putting in the question mark, your right.

what i’m arguing against is gluttony. we consume food in quantities well above what we need, at a very high cost to the animals and the environment (which in turn is harmful to other animals, including humans). i don’t know how many times a day eating meat becomes gluttony, but i will say that on average, americans consume 3X as much protein as the body needs. by contrast, world hunger is up to 1 BILLION people a year.

I agree gluttony effects all of us. The argument isn’t necessarily “animal rights” but really “gluttony”?

I think that one of your earlier statement regarding the Church not taking a stand is misleading. Gluttony is understood as one of the seven deadly sins. What more must the Church do? Is it the job of the Church to enforce morality or simply to teach it? One of the points that I was trying to get to regarding animal rights, too with respect to the Church.

finally, to address your comment about normal people not eating meat products 3 times a day - as a vegan, i know that i have to consciously avoid meat and animal products in foods that i buy. anyone who is not checking labels might be surprised at how much of it they are eating, whether they know it or not. as it was before i went vegan, i thought i was eating a pretty healthy diet, but when i started paying attention to it, i realized that most of the time, i was consuming meat, dairy, AND eggs at practically every meal.

 

[Ruthie]

it takes more vegetation and land to raise livestock than to just feed it directly to people.

This involves some misunderstandings.

Cows, for instance, eat the whole (above ground) corn plant, not just the kernels. Only feeding corn to humans would give us a major disposal problem.

Most of the land used by livestock is pasture. Out here in cattle country, the land used for pasture is not suitable for raising crops eaten by people. To make it suitable would require some major work.

It would have to be bulldozed level. Trees would have to be removed. Depending on the location, rocks would have to be taken away. (All by using lots of smelly machinery which burns petroleum fuel.)

Then, the soil would have to be modified and fertilized - and the only organic method is to dig in plenty of fibrous manure. No cows or horses means no fibrous manure. The PH requirements for dry land pasture are different from cropland. And let’s not talk about sand, clay soils, and bentonite.

After that, it would have to be irrigated - something natural pasture does not require. Not to mention the crops being protected against pests and diseases. (Did you know that it takes twice as much land to grow the same amount of crops organically than by the modern way? It’s because of a combination of loss to pests and lack of fertilization.)

Last, but not least, unless all cultivating is done by hand, the machines will be killing mice, birds, rabbits, and any other creature that makes its home among the crops. (Which means that there’s really no food that does not involve at least a few animal deaths.)

Another interesting note: did you know that Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Whitetail Unlimited, and other similar groups of hunters have preserved a whole bunch more wildlife habitat than other groups?

God bless both great and small,

Ruthie

 

[That_one_guy]

This involves some misunderstandings.

Hi, Ruthie! Thanks for joining the discussion. You seem to have quite a well informed grasp on the matter! Pardon me while I interject. Some in agreement, some not.

Cows, for instance, eat the whole (above ground) corn plant, not just the kernels. Only feeding corn to humans would give us a major disposal problem.

There are actually three forms of corn we are talking about here:

Sweet corn (or “people” corn) is grown for the kernels in their most sugary state.

“Cow” corn is really two types:

1. Forage corn, which is the ears and stalks chopped up by a forage harvester machine and stored usually in a silo, which is fed to cattle usually for the combination of the cellulose, which cows stomachs can digest, plus the natural sugars and starches.
2. Grain corn, which is left to mature until the kernels are their biggest and have dried out and have drawn all the goodness from the cobs, and have converted the sugars to starch. These are harvested generally using a combine which strips the kernels (which are very hard at this level of maturity) from the rest of the plant. In turn, the kernels are ground and used for corn meal in feeds. Some corn meal is of course, also used by people, as is corn starch. Some of it is now used for ethanol too. Grain corn is the biggest use of corn as a crop.

Most of the land used by livestock is pasture. Out here in cattle country, the land used for pasture is not suitable for raising crops eaten by people.

This is as it should be. Cattle deserve free range. I am also pretty sure that range beef is healthier for human consumption than corn fed beef. (I eat neither, so it’s not my problem. But, I want my fellow humans to be healthy, so, I care.

To make it suitable would require some major work.

It would have to be bulldozed level. Trees would have to be removed. Depending on the location, rocks would have to be taken away. (All by using lots of smelly machinery which burns petroleum fuel.)

Well, there is that corn fuel !

The stalks and roots,etc., can be used to produce organic fibrous mulch/soil.

Then, the soil would have to be modified and fertilized - and the only organic method is to dig in plenty of fibrous manure. No cows or horses means no fibrous manure. The PH requirements for dry land pasture are different from cropland. And let’s not talk about sand, clay soils, and bentonite.

We don’t really need the manure. It acts more as a steroid than a vitamin. Plants grow quite well without it. As I said above, the parts of the plant which are not consumed can be used to produce vitamin rich soil. Otherwise, the only other alternative would be to reassign the zones for farming and pasture. Which would mean shuffling everybody around and that would be a nuisance. On the other hand a lot of food can be raised hydroponically and out of season. Hydroponics, in spite of how it sounds, doesn’t require that much water because it is recycled in the process, using the same water over and over.

After that, it would have to be irrigated - something natural pasture does not require.

see above ‘hydroponics’

Not to mention the crops being protected against pests and diseases. (Did you know that it takes twice as much land to grow the same amount of crops organically than by the modern way? It’s because of a combination of loss to pests and lack of fertilization.)

This is not always the case.Plants grown indoors, because they are not outside, have fewer pests. There are also plants which can be planted with the food. Such as various pyrethrin producing plants such as chrysanthemums, and also praying mantis and ladybugs,etc.

Last, but not least, unless all cultivating is done by hand, the machines will be killing mice, birds, rabbits, and any other creature that makes its home among the crops. (Which means that there’s really no food that does not involve at least a few animal deaths.)

Agreed. If the food is being produced outside.

Another interesting note: did you know that Ducks Unlimited, Trout Unlimited, Whitetail Unlimited, and other similar groups of hunters have preserved a whole bunch more wildlife habitat than other groups?

My fellow Vegans will frown and cuss at me, but I like these groups. I don’t necessarilly agree with sport hunting, as it is merely a pastime nowadays and not for survival. It should be noted that these groups are very nature loving people.

God bless both great and small,

Ruthie

Thank you, Ruthie.I hope I didn’t step on your toes. I perceive that you do care about this issue. I am merely trying to offer other ideas based upon your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Hi, Ruthie! Thanks for joining the discussion. You seem to have quite a well informed grasp on the matter! Pardon me while I interject. Some in agreement, some not. There are actually three forms of corn we are talking about here:

I am also pretty sure that range beef is healthier for human consumption than corn fed beef. (I eat neither, so it’s not my problem. But, I want my fellow humans to be healthy, so, I care.Well, there is that corn fuel !
There are several other types of corn that you need to include if your list is all inclusive.

The stalks and roots,etc., can be used to produce organic fibrous mulch/soil.

Pasture is pasture in certain geographical areas because the soil won’t support the production of other food crops. She had a good point that you seemed to have glossed over.

We don’t really need the manure. It acts more as a steroid than a vitamin. Plants grow quite well without it. Not always. As I said above, the parts of the plant which are not consumed can be used to produce vitamin rich soil. Not possible if the soil won’t support the crop in the first place.
Otherwise, the only other alternative would be to reassign the zones for farming and pasture. Which would mean shuffling everybody around and that would be a nuisance. On the other hand a lot of food can be raised hydroponically and out of season. Hydroponics, in spite of how it sounds, doesn’t require that much water because it is recycled in the process, using the same water over and over.see above 'hydroponics’This is not always the case.

So you propose that we more than double the amount of square footage of underroof space that currently exists to begin food production. That doesn’t sound so eco-friendly. Hydoponic systems need to be under roof or the water evaporates. Under roof means grow lights and some tempature control. Sound like a system of demenising returns.

Plants grown indoors, because they are not outside, have fewer pests, yes. Plants grown outdoor are stronger for being grown outdoors. Growing indoors allows the weaker less tolerant strains of plant could survive to reproduce. Plus the indoor enviroment with hydoponics is a perfect enviroment for mold and plant disease.

There are also plants which can be planted with the food. Such as various pyrethrin producing plants such as chrysanthemums, and also praying mantis and ladybugs,etc.

So it would be okay to breed animal and insects to increase the production of plant material? Then after the usefulness of those animals and insects are completed they would be allowed to die through what, starvation.

Agreed. If the food is being produced outside. My fellow Vegans will frown and cuss at me, but I like these groups. I don’t necessarilly agree with sport hunting, as it is merely a pastime nowadays and not for survival. I hunt for food. If I can’t stomach the killing then I have no busy being a omnivore. Generaliztions aren’t for everyone.
It should be noted that these groups are very nature loving people. Agreed.

Thank you, Ruthie.I hope I didn’t step on your toes. I perceive that you do care about this issue. I am merely trying to offer other ideas based upon your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[That_one_guy]

Sean_Boyle:
Good morning, Sean.

Yes, there are several other types of corn. This statement is an injection of polemics and contains no argument.

As for pasture,…You present no valid argument.(no offense)I have not glossed over anything she said. You really shouldn’t underestimate the value of human industry. We can do practically anything. When you make an arguement for your own limitations you have already failed.

Manure.Animals produce copious amounts of manure. For most livestock growers, including horse farmers, manure disposal or utilization is therefore of concern. Using manure as a source of fertilizer is an important aspect of sustainability for most small farmers. One of the main objects of this fertilization is to introduce nitrogen into the soil.

To get the nitrogen we typically apply manure with little thought to what we’re putting on the soil. We know the nitrogen is in there somewhere, and the rest, well, is organic matter. Right?

Only to a degree. Without knowing what is actually in the manure, we can’t possibly judge the efficacy of applying it to the soil. To maximize the benefit of your manure applications, you need to know both its carbon-to-nitrogen ratio and its concentration of phosphorus.

When you apply manure to your soil, the organic phosphorus binds to soil particles and is immobilized. Then, gradually, it becomes available to plants as phosphate. Because of this gradual release, excess phosphorus is initially not a problem. Applied year after year in large quantities, however, it can become an environmental hazard.

Because phosphorus binds tightly with the soil, few ways exist to remove it. One good way to remove it is to grow a crop that requires high phosphorus amounts. Corn is such a crop. Pastures, and even alfalfa, require much less phosphorus than corn, thus removing less of it from the soil.

Applied without consideration of the potentials for losing nitrogen and building up excess phosphorus, manure can become a hazard to your soil. On the other hand, due to its low cost and availability, manure used wisely is an excellent fertilizer for the small farmer.

As for the hydroponics issue.
Well, I must admit that this is my own private science fiction dream. However, it IS feasible. I am in the process of constructing a hydroponic system for my fiancee so she can grow parsley, cilantro and mint out of season.

But, I come from the school of ‘Dream Big’.

Your arguments against insects is polemic, at best. Your implication is that I am taking a Jainist approach towards life. While, I am Vegan, and hold all life sacred(it’s a pro-life thing), I do not place insects above animals, nor animals above humans. To suggest otherwise is slander.

I have done my share of hunting. I hunt no more. I gave my racks away. Archery was my game. I still target shoot. I have nothing against hunting. I don’t need it to survive. As an ex-omnivore, I think the meat is better for you. Plus, you got it yourself!

Hunt!Do it! Someone has to manage the herds. But, to kill for the sport is entirely different than filling your freezer with a years worth of Elk.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

Good morning, Sean.

As for pasture,…You present no valid argument.(no offense)I have not glossed over anything she said.

Out here in cattle country, the land used for pasture is not suitable for raising crops eaten by people.

This is the statement I was speaking of above.

You really shouldn’t underestimate the value of human industry. We can do practically anything. except making land that won’t support food crop, support food crops. You can do it for a few areas but not a large percentage. All the manure in the world wouldn’t cover much in the american west pasture lands.When you make an argument for your own limitations you have already failed.

When making an argument without knowing your limitations, you set your self up for failure, also.

Manure.Animals produce copious amounts of manure. For most livestock growers, including horse farmers, manure disposal or utilization is therefore of concern. Using manure as a source of fertilizer is an important aspect of sustainability for most small farmers. One of the main objects of this fertilization is to introduce nitrogen into the soil.

To get the nitrogen we typically apply manure with little thought to what we’re putting on the soil. We know the nitrogen is in there somewhere, and the rest, well, is organic matter. Right?

Only to a degree. Without knowing what is actually in the manure, we can’t possibly judge the efficacy of applying it to the soil. To maximize the benefit of your manure applications, you need to know both its carbon-to-nitrogen ratio and its concentration of phosphorus.

When you apply manure to your soil, the organic phosphorus binds to soil particles and is immobilized. Then, gradually, it becomes available to plants as phosphate. Because of this gradual release, excess phosphorus is initially not a problem. Applied year after year in large quantities, however, it can become an environmental hazard.

Because phosphorus binds tightly with the soil, few ways exist to remove it. One good way to remove it is to grow a crop that requires high phosphorus amounts. Corn is such a crop. Pastures, and even alfalfa, require much less phosphorus than corn, thus removing less of it from the soil.

Applied without consideration of the potentials for losing nitrogen and building up excess phosphorus, manure can become a hazard to your soil. On the other hand, due to its low cost and availability, manure used wisely is an excellent fertilizer for the small farmer.

I wasn’t discussing the use of manure at all. Although I did throw in a two word comment about it, I guess. Not intended to challenge your knowledge of manure.

As for the hydroponics issue.
Well, I must admit that this is my own private science fiction dream.

We all need to dream.

However, it IS feasible. For everyone to produce all food necessary thru hydroponics? How? I am in the process of constructing a hydroponic system for my fiancee so she can grow parsley, cilantro and mint out of season. Sounds great. I’ll bet she’ll be happy with it.

But, I come from the school of ‘Dream Big’.

Your arguments against insects is polemic, at best. Your implication is that I am taking a Jainist approach towards life. While, I am Vegan, and hold all life sacred(it’s a pro-life thing), I do not place insects above animals, nor animals above humans. To suggest otherwise is slander.

Relax… First it would be libel. Second the conditions of a misunderstanding cannot result in libel or slander. You presented a solution without considering the result of that solution. I was point that out. I’m sorry if you took offense.

I have done my share of hunting. I hunt no more. I gave my racks away. Archery was my game. I still target shoot. I have nothing against hunting. I don’t need it to survive. As an ex-omnivore, I think the meat is better for you. Plus, you got it yourself!

You made this generalization. I don’t necessarilly agree with sport hunting, as it is merely a pastime nowadays and not for survival.

I don’t hunt for sport, nor does anyone that I know of with a few exceptions. Yet you seem to claim that hunting is merely a pastime nowadays.

Hunt!Do it! Someone has to manage the herds. But, to kill for the sport is entirely different than filling your freezer with a years worth of Elk. Agreed. I have little in common with a hunter that doesn’t use what God has provided.

 

[That_one_guy]

Sean_Boyle:
We seem to have gotten a little off topic here. But, I am enjoying the subject.
Wanna start a new thread?

 

[Ruthie]

I don’t think it’s totally irrelevant. It arises out of the discussion of factory farming…

Another aspect to the issue of animal abuse is this. What we see is what we understand. They call it “anecdotal evidence.” Let me explain.

When it comes to house pets, I’m sure that most of us think they get decent treatment, because we’ve seen many, and they’ve been well-treated. But if we’d never seen any, and our only exposure to them was from watching the “Animal Cops” shows, we’d have a poor opinion of the average pet owner.

Someone who gets their opinion of farmers and breeders from Animal Rights publications is getting an unbalanced view. Note that I am not saying it is incorrect - entirely. (More on that later.) I completely agree that the pictures they present are unpleasant, to say the least. And (when they are not edited or doctored), the practices they show should be stopped.

But… three points about publicity.

First, you can’t tell the ratio of bad to good, when you see only the bad. Conditions differ between one “factory farm” and another. Same for other issues. HSUS isn’t going to show you a picture of a bright, clean factory farm with contented-looking animals.

Second. Some things that look like abuse, aren’t. Not everyone can afford pristine cyclone or rail fence, neat-looking automatic waterers, or astro-turf. So we might have non-matching fence posts with several cobbled-together kinds of fence, old bathtubs for water, and dirt enclosures that turn muddy when it rains. Get a picture of that, from just the right angle, on a nasty rainy day, so the critters will have their heads down and their tails tucked, and it looks awful. But on a sunny day, it’s obvious that the animals are happy and healthy.

Third. Animal Rights propaganda is full of outright lies. For instance, the famous film of a baby seal being skinned live: they paid the man who did it, a poor man, $1500 (in '60s dollars) to do that. They’ll film at a slaughterhouse for 5 days, and then edit out all the boring stuff, and include every instance of ugly-looking stuff in a 4-minute film. They they say (or let you think) that this goes on all day, every day.

I could go on for quite a while about that. I have no respect for the ARAs. They really have no respect for the animals; they just want to get them out of human hands. They have even abused them, to make the owners look bad. They can get my dogs and horses over my dead body - and that seems to be the idea. (Yes, I’ve had death threats.)

But that’s enough for now.

Oh… ARA = animal rights activist

God bless us all,

Ruthie

Oh, #2: That One Guy, the corn I see as cattle feed around here is dried standing, then cut and baled.

 

[That_one_guy]

I have no real response, other than, it seems like we all agree that we should at least treat our pets and/or livestock with a certain degree of (dignity?) compassion.

At least, those of us who profess to be followers of Christ should at least not allow our practices to be spoken of as evil. Not in the sense of defensiveness. But, in the sense of doing all we can to ensure that the animals are well provided for and treated in a humane manner. So, should anything be said against us, it will be contrived and not based on fact.

I will concede that there might be a little artistic license (for lack of a better term) when it comes to the ARA’s films. I suppose it’s along the same lines as when someone disciplines their child in public and some one blows it out of proportion and gets the child taken away from the otherwise responsible parent.

I do appreciate the stimulus for thought,…

 

[Newbie2]

ah - being a vet, surely you are aware of the problem with resistant bacteria.

Of course. However, bacterial resistance has little to do with animal rights.

i don’t like the term “speciest” but after watching “eathlings” i can understand where they get the term. if you have never seen it, i highly recommend it.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4093730216074063220&hl=en

most people will tell you that they can’t be concerned about the welfare of animals until we’ve banned abortion. i’ve been round and round with my fellow catholic pro-lifers in this issue. unless we’re talking about a dog or cat, they don’t think it’s a problem… but provided it doesn’t make their meat more expensive, they’re all for it.

we may not like the extremists, but they have brought many issues to light that would otherwise not be known to the public. the ONLY reason they get any support is because they are exposing some pretty heinous truths about the industry.

yes they do produce. as long as they are alive and designed to grow lots of “meat” on them (with antibiotics and hormones, for starters), they produce, regardless of how much they suffer in the process.

You’re making the incorrect assumption that they’re all suffering.

“production” and “efficiency” have come to replace the whole notion of animals being living creatures. our moral responsibility is their well-being, not getting as many eggs, quarts of milk, or pounds of meat from them as possible. we have greed dictating animal welfare right now.

To some extent, I agree, but their well-being does not supercede our needs as humans.

“need”? for meat/eggs/dairy 3x a day every day? no, i think not. animal-based food consumption (per capita) has more than doubled since 1950. we were a well-fed nation in 1950, so what does that make us today?

That’s a different issue, whether or not we “need” all the food that we produce.

well you can tell that the ones who have been bought out by agribusiness are advocating their methods. anyone else with common sense can see that packing hogs into crates that are the size of their bodies for all their lives is untenable for the welfare of the animals.

Yet they thrive and produce.

the slaughterhouse in chino that was shut down? those were california’s famous “happy dairy cows”… about half of all dairy cows are lame by the time they are “spent” – and they are “spent” very young for what their life span should be. but rather than euthanize them humanely or take better care of them, we pack them in trucks for slaughter. gotta get that last dime out of them. how can they afford to do this? well, easy. the “products of their insemination” used to make them produce more milk, replace them. what a racket.

you see, i don’t think it’s wrong to get some milk from a cow if we want a little or need it. but we have become greedy and gluttonous.

So if you don’t want it, don’t buy it, but please don’t dictate to the rest of us how to eat. That’s where I have a problem with “Animal Rights Extremists”; they want to dictate how the rest of us should, eat, wear, and have as companions.

that’s interesting about tail docking. i got my dog from the pound - when he came to the shelter at 9 weeks old, he’d had his tail docked and dew claws removed… and was left with a belly full of worms by his original owner. i did think it was ridiculous

Yep. It happens. We see stupid and uncaring pet owners all the time.

 

[That_one_guy]

Newbie2:
Nobody is dictating what you should or should not do. This is a healthy debate on the situation.

Speaking for myself, counter arguments are a good way to work out the solution. Polemics and negatively toned opinions are useless.

People who say ‘don’t tell me what I should (fill in the blank)’, are reacting like rebellious children with no discipline. The same applies to the anti-life(pro-choice) people.

I mean this in an ‘exhorting’ sort of way. Not as a chastisement. So, if it get’s your panties in a bunch, re-examine your statements.

 

[That_one_guy]

.

As for the hydroponics issue.
Well, I must admit that this is my own private science fiction dream. However, it IS feasible. I am in the process of constructing a hydroponic system for my fiancee so she can grow parsley, cilantro and mint out of season.

But, I come from the school of ‘Dream Big’.

Way off topic.But,it was discussed here. So if anybody is interested. Here is a cool link.

astralstar.com/hydrogreen.html

 

[Newbie2]

Nobody is dictating what you should or should not do. This is a healthy debate on the situation.

I beg to differ; perhaps not on this forum, but rather the PETA folks and other such “animal rights” activists are telling us exactly what we should do or not do as far as animals are concerned, and justifying their opinions with the notion that animals have “rights” as humans do.

Speaking for myself, counter arguments are a good way to work out the solution. Polemics and negatively toned opinions are useless.

Here I agree with you.

People who say ‘don’t tell me what I should (fill in the blank)’, are reacting like rebellious children with no discipline.



I mean this in an ‘exhorting’ sort of way. Not as a chastisement. So, if it get’s your panties in a bunch, re-examine your statements.

I don’t wear panties.

 

[WordFuzion]

Hmmm…I find the thought of animals not having souls very distressing. If anyone deserves Heaven, it’s definetly dogs and cats! I am really fighting back tears here because last Monday I had to put my beloved feline companion of ten years to sleep because she was suffering from heart failure. I promised her we’d be together again, and now it hurts to think that promise was in vain. That she’s just dead…gone…

I mean, God is good, so I do strongly believe animals have souls. Is there direct scripture from the BIBLE that says “animals do not have souls?” I thought it says in the Bible that everything of this earth has a place in the New World?

Hmmmph…I’m putting myself to bed on this one before I start getting overly emotional. And in that bed I will be sleeping with my Miniature Pinscher in my arms like a little teddy bear. I can’t imagine not having animals in my life, what a sad life that would be! I feel like part of my purpose on this earth is to help animals, which I’ve been doing actively for the past decade. My mother even commented once she felt that God sent me animals so I could help them, even the ones whose lives were very short. And to think of them not in Heaven with me someday…

Oh, and as for PETA, basically animal rescues despise them. (I’m a rescue person, how did you guess? ) Basically they believe the animals I’ve rescued would be better off dead then in a loving home where they have shelter, love, and good food, not to mention are spoiled rotten! They believe animals should have NO contact with humans. They will actually rescue dogs and cats from pounds just to have them put to sleep so they don’t fall into the hands of evil “pet owners.”

Seriously, if you want to help animals, support your local no-kill shelters or rescues. The ASPCA is also a great organization. And if you’re going to be adding a dog or cat to the family, consider rescue first. If you have your heart set on a specific breed there are purebreed rescues. I can tell you from experince, there’s nothing like having a rescue dog. It will change you for the better.

 

[magisterfaust]

God created all things, i’m reckoning that includes the animals?.
How ab out this to chew on…If the animals could formulate a religion, then they would surely depict the devil in HUMAN form!!!

 

[Newbie2]

How ab out this to chew on…If the animals could formulate a religion, then they would surely depict the devil in HUMAN form!!!

Did you see “Planet of the Apes”?

 

[magisterfaust]

suppose you think you’re funny. do ya?:clapping:

 

[Feanor]

I read that the Pope is against Foi gras- where they force feed the geese to fatten their livers.

I am kind of against the common treatment of veal- but I must admit I do eat it occasionally.

 

[mackbrislawn]

God created all things, i’m reckoning that includes the animals?.
How ab out this to chew on…If the animals could formulate a religion, then they would surely depict the devil in HUMAN form!!!

I have a cousin who is a mystic, believes in reincarnation, and is also a vegetarian. Anyway, he says that animals regard humans as some sort of gods.

 

[vera_dicere]

I support the SPCA in New Zealand, as they assist animals who have been abandoned and abused. God gifted us animals for our assistance, not to for us to torture and abuse them. Plus, abuse and torture of animals is an early indication of homicidal tendancies.

As for PETA, those people disgust me, comparing battery hens to the horror of the Nazi death camps. Completely tactless.

Animals should have rights to be protected from unwarrented abuse, but not be placed above human life.

There’s a snail in NZL that if you kill you get fined almost a million dollars and get 15 years in prison, yet you can kill your own unborn child and the govt will even pay for it!