Animal Suffering

[Soldier_Of_God]

As sophisticated biological beings, animals have a nervous system that is capable of transmitting sensations of various types, including pain. This is a natural consequence of complex nervious systems and is a necessary component. There is a bioligical utility to pain as pain detracts or deters the animal from biologically damaging activities. In our anthropomorphizing of animals, I think we tend to work under the assumption that all pain or suffering as undesirable. However, pain helps the species avoid actions that can result in permanent impairment or to escape from motal danger and in the long run works to their individual and collective benefit.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

As sophisticated biological beings, animals have a nervous system that is capable of transmitting sensations of various types (e.g. pleasure), including pain, which is merely a type of sensation. This is a natural consequence of complex nervous systems and is a necessary component of higher order organic life. In of itself, sensations like pain are neither good or bad. They serve as sensory (name removed by moderator)ut from an extremely complex set of conditions and environmental factors and impel the creature or individual to a set of actions that would promote its short term or long terms interests.

There is a biological utility to pain as pain detracts or deters the animal from biologically damaging activities. In our anthropomorphizing of animals, I think we tend to work under the assumption that all pain or suffering as undesirable. However, the sensation of pain helps the species avoid actions that can result in permanent impairment or to escape from mortal danger and in the long run works to their individual and collective benefit. This promotes behavior that allows animals succeed in their habitats.

Predation (e.g. parasitism, carnivorism) exists to cull the weak and the infirm but mostly to ensure that species do not grow out of proportion to its environment support factors. This also assists in maintaining biodiversity by keeping a specific species from becoming too pervasive at the expense of other species. This interaction assures that the ecosystem in balanced for the long term and efficiently using resources (e.g. food) while still being able to remain adaptable to variations in climate and circumstance. A biological system that has long term viability, equilibrium and robustness is the optimal preference.

 

[Spock]

Cancer begins as our own body-cells, and of course we have no defense against our own cells.

If your immune cells were triggered by cells in your own body, you’d have autoimmune disease, which is equally hideous and potentially fatal as cancer.

And in a natural world, tooth decay is dangerous, since it is near the brain. The severe pain does have a survival value.

Of course it does - sometimes. But there are people who are not affected by tooth decay. You take my examples at face value. They are intended as examples. Take the accumulation of cholesterol in the body as another example. It is a dangerous factor, which can lead to heart disease. There is no “early warning” system there either. (Also remember that there are some lucky people in whom there is a “lethal” level of cholesterol accumulation, but they have a special gene which nullifies the harmful effects of this accumulation.)

In other words, some painful reactions are indeed part of an “early warning” system, and others are definitely not. The warning is not distributed according the severity of problem it should indicate. There is no sign that it was “designed” by an intelligent creator. And it could be improved upon.

A planarian hemibody is far less complex than a human hand or leg, and requires far less matter to regrow. There’s really no comparison.

And it would do you no good to be able to regrow a hemibody, since if divided in this way, you would bleed to death at once.

The principle is there, however. The bleeding could be stopped by fast coagulation of the blood at the affected area. Think outside the box.

 

[tonyrey]

Although pain is not a moral evil in itself the fact that God permits it does introduce a moral dimension.
*
In individual lives there seems*

There is no doubt some have to suffer far more than most of us but how could such inequality be avoided? If this were the only life it would be very unjust. That is why an afterlife is a necessary part of the solution.

 

[severus68]

Earlier on I made a thread about why God allows human suffering on earth, and both others and myself worked through the issue. Now I am asking, why does God allow animals to suffer so? They are even more innocent than humans, but have a more difficult and painful life too, and of course they are God’s creations and he would, I imagine, love them. I have two questions:

1. Why will God allow animals which are hurt to keep suffering?
2. Why would God make it so animals have to harm and eat other ones to survive? I mean, isn’t it a little cruel, especially when they mutilate each other too?

I won’t accept:

1. Good afterlife (mortal souls on animals)
2. Result of the fall, I believe in death before the fall.

I know this may be easy to work through, but I’d like some (name removed by moderator)ut on this. Thanks!

I have not been able to work through this. I am clear about what you wont accept but here are some of my thoughts on this issue.

Some here have posted on the physiology of pain. I dont think that answers your question. Someone questioned whether animals are really aware of pain. I have sat up and held my sick and dying pets, they are. Some appear to consider animals as mere things and talk about keeping numbers down etc.

I had asked the same question on an earlier thread. It was explained how the lot of animals have fallen with the lot of humans. It does not answer the question. The point is that God does allow the suffering of the innocent whether that a baby who suffers throughout its short life or of animals who have no free will. I think about the photographer who photographed that starving, dying child and later killed himself.

I do not think anyone has the answer. I am still traumatised by the pain and suffering of all of God’s creatures and I still question it but I believe I will only get the answer when I leave this world.

 

[cassini]

I have not been able to work through this. I am clear about what you wont accept but here are some of my thoughts on this issue.

Some here have posted on the physiology of pain. I dont think that answers your question. Someone questioned whether animals are really aware of pain. I have sat up and held my sick and dying pets, they are. Some appear to consider animals as mere things and talk about keeping numbers down etc.

I had asked the same question on an earlier thread. It was explained how the lot of animals have fallen with the lot of humans. It does not answer the question. The point is that God does allow the suffering of the innocent whether that a baby who suffers throughout its short life or of animals who have no free will. I think about the photographer who photographed that starving, dying child and later killed himself.

I do not think anyone has the answer. I am still traumatised by the pain and suffering of all of God’s creatures and I still question it but I believe I will only get the answer when I leave this world.

I too share most of your compassion and thoughts severus, as many do I’m sure. As I said before, my only consolation is trust in God. As a Catholic I know that He, Who is aware of all things, Who is infinitly compassionate and just, has created animals in a manner that does not cause useless ‘pain and suffering’ as understood and felt by Human beings. Until we are enlightened by God on these things, let us lead our lives by looking after animals in our care and sphere as best we can.

 

[tonyrey]

I do not think anyone has the answer. I am still traumatised by the pain and suffering of all of God’s creatures and I still question it but I believe I will only get the answer when I leave this world.

You have to ask yourself how the pain and suffering could be prevented without depriving creatures of their pleasure, satisfaction, excitement and fulfilment. It is easy for critics to suggest piecemeal improvements but to design the exquisite harmony and beauty of the immense biosystem is a vastly different proposition…

 

[GEddie]

You have to ask yourself how the pain and suffering could be prevented without depriving creatures of their pleasure, satisfaction, excitement and fulfilment. It is easy for critics to suggest piecemeal improvements but to design the exquisite harmony and beauty of the immense biosystem is a vastly different proposition…

The ecosystem we live in could be substantially different and you would still see harmony and beauty, simply because you see only a small part of it. Also, it would be the only ecosystem you knew, just as the one we have now is the only one you know. Other versions could be likewise harmonious and beautiful.

“Harmony and beauty” are not an answer to questions such as the one posed by the OP.

Happy Holidays and ICXC NIKA

 

[tonyrey]

You have to ask yourself how the pain and suffering could be prevented without depriving creatures of their pleasure, satisfaction, excitement and fulfilment. It is easy for critics to suggest piecemeal improvements but to design the exquisite harmony and beauty of the immense biosystem is a vastly different proposition…

My point is that exquisite harmony and beauty imply immense complexity and interdependence. It still remains to be demonstrated that a comparable ecosystem could exist without pain and suffering. How could accidents, disorders, diseases, failure, interference and conflict be prevented?

 

[severus68]

I too share most of your compassion and thoughts severus, as many do I’m sure. As I said before, my only consolation is trust in God. As a Catholic I know that He, Who is aware of all things, Who is infinitly compassionate and just, has created animals in a manner that does not cause useless ‘pain and suffering’ as understood and felt by Human beings. Until we are enlightened by God on these things, let us lead our lives by looking after animals in our care and sphere as best we can.

Thank you. I too believe in the compassion and mercy of God. It may be too easy for some to say animals do not feel pain and suffering as we do and thus justify how

 

[severus68]

You have to ask yourself how the pain and suffering could be prevented without depriving creatures of their pleasure, satisfaction, excitement and fulfilment. It is easy for critics to suggest piecemeal improvements but to design the exquisite harmony and beauty of the immense biosystem is a vastly different proposition…

Which creature other than a human being would choose to suffer for excitement etc? The exquisite harmony and beauty of this world was designed by God. We human beings would have to make great changes in ourselves to even start to bring it back to God’s design and to end pain and suffering.

 

[tonyrey]

You have to ask yourself how the pain and suffering could be prevented without depriving creatures of their pleasure, satisfaction, excitement and fulfilment. It is easy for critics to suggest piecemeal improvements but to design the exquisite harmony and beauty of the immense biosystem is a vastly different proposition…

How do you know the world is not as it was designed God? You still have to explain precisely how all pain and suffering could be prevented - not by piecemeal improvements but as an integral part of the system of nature? The vast majority of animals experience far more pleasure, satisfaction, excitement and fulfilment than pain and suffering. Do you believe it would have been better if life had never existed on this planet?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Spock

Let’s face it: “we are made of lousy material with shoddy workmanship”.

Speak for yourself only, not for the rest of us.

I do not think of Plato and Christ and Mozart and Newton as shoddy workmanship.

People are not only created, but challenged buy God to rise above themselves. Some accept the challenge. Others do not. The ones who do not are not God’s shoddy workmanship, but rather man’s … or even the workmanship of the devil.

The frustration with the lack of evidence that the universe is full of perfectly happy people and animals who will never die and never need to even fear death strikes me as the childish expectation that the parents answer every whim of the child, even so far as protecting that child from every harm.

 

[severus68]

How do you know the world is not as it was designed God? You still have to explain precisely how all pain and suffering could be prevented - not by piecemeal improvements but as an integral part of the system of nature? The vast majority of animals experience far more pleasure, satisfaction, excitement and fulfilment than pain and suffering. Do you believe it would have been better if life had never existed on this planet?

The creation of the world as told in Genesis is an allegory but it does tell us God’s purpose. God is merciful, compassionate and ever loving, God does not cause or want suffering. This is a flawed world, it is not the world as God intentended. Read Isaiah.

If I could stop pain and suffering, I would be God. I only know that if we try change the world to be what God created it to be, there would be less suffering.

I really cannot accept your view that the vast majority of animals experience more pleasure etc than pain and suffering. Even so many human beings suffer so much. Even cows, goats, sheep, chickens and pigs can talk, I doubt that they would say there was more pleasure than pain.

I feel pain at the pain and suffering but this is the world I was born in and we all have to do the best we can. There is really no point in conjecture. The point is there is life on this planet and we are part of it.

 

[tonyrey]

How do you know the world is not as it was designed BY God? You still have to explain precisely how all pain and suffering could be prevented - not by piecemeal improvements but as an integral part of the system of nature? The vast majority of animals experience far more pleasure, satisfaction, excitement and fulfilment than pain and suffering. Do you believe it would have been better if life had never existed on this planet?

God does not cause or want suffering but He permits it because it is inevitable in a physical world.The world is flawed as far man is concerned because he has polluted and disfigured it but physical evil existed before man appeared on the scene. There were earthquakes and other natural disasters which injured and killed animals. Pain is a defence mechanism and death is an integral part of the biocycle.

If I could stop pain and suffering, I would be God. I only know that if we try change the world to be what God created it to be, there would be less suffering.

I lived in Africa for fifteen years and I can assure you that most wild animals are not deformed, diseased or in constant pain. Even to be killed swiftly by a predator is preferable to a lingering, agonising death from an injury, disease, thirst or starvation.

Even so many human beings suffer so much. Even cows, goats, sheep, chickens and pigs can talk, I doubt that they would say there was more pleasure than pain.

It is significant that you refer only to domestic animals. They are the victims of human cruelty.

I feel pain at the pain and suffering but this is the world I was born in and we all have to do the best we can. There is really no point in conjecture. The point is there is life on this planet and we are part of it.

Do you believe the pain and suffering in the world outweighs the value of life for most animals - and human beings?

 

[severus68]

God does not cause or want suffering but He permits it because it is inevitable in a physical world.The world is flawed as far man is concerned because he has polluted and disfigured it but physical evil existed before man appeared on the scene. There were earthquakes and other natural disasters which injured and killed animals. Pain is a defence mechanism and death is an integral part of the biocycle.
I lived in Africa for fifteen years and I can assure you that most wild animals are not deformed, diseased or in constant pain. Even to be killed swiftly by a predator is preferable to a lingering, agonising death from an injury, disease, thirst or starvation.
It is significant that you refer only to domestic animals. They are the victims of human cruelty.
Do you believe the pain and suffering in the world outweighs the value of life for most animals - and human beings?

We appear to be talking at cross purposes. I have never said God causes or wants suffering.

As far as suffering and pain being in existence before Man, I do not believe that is part of the teachings of the Church. To me it would a contradiction of what God is. Since there was no human beings at that time, so did God create animals which would kill others?
To God nothing is inevitable, so God does not permit suffering because it is inevitable.

I was taught and still believe that death is a consequence of Man’s sin. Violence and suffering is part of the circle of life in a flawed nature.

I am not really talking about nature and the lives of wild animals although I am aware about what happens in nature in Africa and elsewhere.

I am actually referring to the suffering of the innocent and voiceless, human and non human. I spoke of animals domesticated for food as only an example. You are absolutely right, human beings cause their suffering.

I can’t speak for adult human beings but I can observe and feel the pain and suffering of children and animals. I cannot know whether a lamb for example is happy to have lived while being killed for someone’s dinner. However my very point was that I will understand the purpose of all pain and suffering only when I meet God.

 

[Kallipolis]

Suffering and Pleasure are being used quite loosely in this thread. I do not think that the application of these concepts to irrational animals does these experiences justice since they are exclusive to the human experience.

 

[tonyrey]

As far as suffering and pain being in existence before Man, I do not believe that is part of the teachings of the Church. To me it would a contradiction of what God is. Since there was no human beings at that time, so did God create animals which would kill others?
To God nothing is inevitable, so God does not permit suffering because it is inevitable.

The Church accepts evolution - which implies that predators existed before human beings.They were not created instanteously by God - any more than parasites or disease or deformities - but were the result of a long process of development in which there was an element of chance.

I was taught and still believe that death is a consequence of Man’s sin. Violence and suffering is part of the circle of life in a flawed nature.

Spiritual death is the consequence of sin. Jesus told us not to fear those who kill the body…

I am actually referring to the suffering of the innocent and voiceless, human and non human. I spoke of animals domesticated for food as only an example. You are absolutely right, human beings cause their suffering.

For which God cannot be held responsible.

I can’t speak for adult human beings but I can observe and feel the pain and suffering of children and animals. I cannot know whether a lamb for example is happy to have lived while being killed for someone’s dinner.

A lamb does not foresee its death and enjoys its life while it lives. I became a vegetarian twenty years ago but if everybody did so sheep and lambs would become extinct!

However my very point was that I will understand the purpose of all pain and suffering only when I meet God.

I agree.

Happy New Year!

 

[severus68]

The Church accepts evolution - which implies that predators existed before human beings.They were not created instanteously by God - any more than parasites or disease or deformities - but were the result of a long process of development in which there was an element of chance.

Spiritual death is the consequence of sin. Jesus told us not to fear those who kill the body…

For which God cannot be held responsible.
A lamb does not foresee its death and enjoys its life while it lives. I became a vegetarian twenty years ago but if everybody did so sheep and lambs would become extinct!

I agree.

Happy New Year!

As you know the Church does not accept all of what is known as The Theory of Evolution. Did God leave his innocent creatures to chance, to suffer violence.

Never said God is responsible.

A lamb does not forsee death until it comes to it or before that when it smells the blood and the fear and hears. Being dead means no suffering but the apprehension and the pain is an issue to me.

I am glad. I am a vegetarian too. There eventually will far less in numbers buy why extinct if not hunted?

A Happy New Year to you too. God bless.

 

[tonyrey]

As you know the Church does not accept all of what is known as The Theory of Evolution. Did God leave his innocent creatures to chance, to suffer violence.

The Church does not accept NeoDarwinism - the theory that all development is ultimately purposeless - but it accepts the scientific evidence for the age of the universe and the transformation of life. If nothing occurs by Chance God must be directly responsible for all the suffering not caused by man - like disease and deformities.

A lamb does not foresee death until it comes to it or before that when it smells the blood and the fear and hears. Being dead means no suffering but the apprehension and the pain is an issue to me.

In humane conditions death can be painless and far swifter than from disease or injury. No life on earth can be entirely free from fear and pain. A natural death is not an evil because it is a necessary part of the biocycle and a transition to the afterlife.

I am glad. I am a vegetarian too. There eventually will far less in numbers but why extinct if not hunted?

Eventually they would be found only in zoos because in national parks they would be at risk from predators and in an economic crisis be less of an viable attraction than more spectacular species like zebra and buffalo.