Animal Suffering

[severus68]

The Church does not accept NeoDarwinism - the theory that all development is ultimately purposeless - but it accepts the scientific evidence for the age of the universe and the transformation of life. If nothing occurs by Chance God must be directly responsible for all the suffering not caused by man - like disease and deformities.

In humane conditions death can be painless and far swifter than from disease or injury. No life on earth can be entirely free from fear and pain. A natural death is not an evil because it is a necessary part of the biocycle and a transition to the afterlife.

Eventually they would be found only in zoos because in national parks they would be at risk from predators and in an economic crisis be less of an viable attraction than more spectacular species like zebra and buffalo.

I cannot accept that God would create violent creatures or is responsible for any suffering.

Many believe there is no afterlife for animals.

I know of people who keep goats, sheep, pigs a pets and treat them as they would a loved dog. It would have to be secured parks. Yes there would be practical difficulties but maybe not if God takes a hand?

 

[tonyrey]

I cannot accept that God would create violent creatures or is responsible for any suffering.

God is ultimately responsible for all suffering and violence because He created everything. He permits it because it is inevitable in an immensely complex biosystem. For every advantage there is a corresponding disadvantage. The more sensitive creatures are the more vulnerable they become…

Many believe there is no afterlife for animals.

Even if this their only life it is worth having! Would it be better if they had never existed?

I know of people who keep goats, sheep, pigs as pets and treat them as they would a loved dog. It would have to be secured parks. Yes there would be practical difficulties but maybe not if God takes a hand?

Then they would be curiosities rather than species…

 

[Pieman333272]

I don’t know how the discussion has floated around, but can I hear an explanation for what I consider the strongest example of animal suffering to be?

Let’s talk about the spider wasp. Why did God make it so that it, by nature, paralyzes a spider, lays its eggs in it, lets the eggs hatch, and the larvae proceed to eat the spider, saving the internal organs so it stays alive while it’s being eaten? For the sake of argument, let’s say the wasp larvae would survive a less violent way, it is animal nature, not free will, which makes the wasp do this, and that the spider feels pain and suffers as this happens. How can we justify this for God? Did he not create the wasp and spider, either directly or through evolution, and give the wasp its nature and soul?

 

[Ismael]

I don’t know how the discussion has floated around, but can I hear an explanation for what I consider the strongest example of animal suffering to be?

Let’s talk about the spider wasp. Why did God make it so that it, by nature, paralyzes a spider, lays its eggs in it, lets the eggs hatch, and the larvae proceed to eat the spider, saving the internal organs so it stays alive while it’s being eaten? For the sake of argument, let’s say the wasp larvae would survive a less violent way, it is animal nature, not free will, which makes the wasp do this, and that the spider feels pain and suffers as this happens. How can we justify this for God? Did he not create the wasp and spider, either directly or through evolution, and give the wasp its nature and soul?

One should first ask what a spider feels and suffers.

Our ‘suffering’ is quite extended, since we have developed brains, developed memory (if you felt horrible pain 1 minute ago but you forgot about it… would it matter? Heinlein in *‘The Cat that Walks through Walls’ *envisioned a ‘perfect anestetic’ that consisted in wiping the short term memory of the patient so he would not remember the pain), developed sensibility, etc…

Lower animals, like insects, experience things on a very different level than us: we cannnot put ourselves in their place…

You might think that the spider might suffer like you would suffer if it happened to you, but it’s ridiculous to think so, since their very limited cognitive ability compared to our own (our brains are bigger than the whole spider!)

Did he not create the wasp and spider, either directly or through evolution, and give the wasp its nature and soul?

As far as Catholic faith goes: animals have no immortal soul.

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Also we must consider (I provide here a quick answer/comment but the questions are still worth pondering):

1- Is pain the same as suffering?
Obviously not: some people, ie masochists, even find pleasure in pain (either psychological or physical).

2- Are all beings capable to feel pain?
Not all beings do.

3- What is pain in itself?
A biologist would say that it’s a tool for survival.

4- How do different creatures with different ‘cognitive capabilites’ experience pain? And do they truly ‘suffer’?
Evidently perception, even regarding pain, depends a lot on cognitive capabilities.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

In the act of creation, it is my position that God permits the physical world itself and denizens of the physical world to be themselves, in whatever myriad forms that may encompass. This independence from God is accorded from munificence, a divine gift of complete freedom and liberation. As such, the wildlife of the physical world express themselves (e.g. evolve) in innumerable manners, as shown by the case of the spider wasp.

Likewise, we are also permitted this freedom, which is why we are capable of such beauty and such vileness.

 

[GEddie]

Our ‘suffering’ is quite extended, since we have developed brains, developed memory (if you felt horrible pain 1 minute ago but you forgot about it… would it matter? Heinlein in *‘The Cat that Walks through Walls’ *envisioned a ‘perfect anestetic’ that consisted in wiping the short term memory of the patient so he would not remember the pain)…

Indeed, AIUI, modern anesthesia protocols involve the use of a short-acting amnesia drug, for precisely this reason.

ICXC NIKA.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t know how the discussion has floated around, but can I hear an explanation for what I consider the strongest example of animal suffering to be?

Let’s talk about the spider wasp. Why did God make it so that it, by nature, paralyzes a spider, lays its eggs in it, lets the eggs hatch, and the larvae proceed to eat the spider, saving the internal organs so it stays alive while it’s being eaten? For the sake of argument, let’s say the wasp larvae would survive a less violent way, it is animal nature, not free will, which makes the wasp do this, and that the spider feels pain and suffers as this happens. How can we justify this for God? Did he not create the wasp and spider, either directly or through evolution, and give the wasp its nature and soul?

1. The victim of the spider wasp is hardly the strongest example of animal suffering when compared with the nervous system of a primate.
2. The spider wasp was not created directly by God.
3. Many characteristics in nature are due to physical circumstances rather than deliberately intended by God.
4. Calvin’s view that not a drop of rain falls without the express will of God is absurd.
5. Our ignorance of the extent to which other forms of life suffer undermines any argument that the suffering in the world is excessive.
6. It is inevitable that there is conflict and suffering in an immensely complex system where billions of living organisms are pursuing different goals.
7. The immense value of life far outweighs its drawbacks.

 

[Pieman333272]

One more question: What about animals like Apes which go through a lot of suffering in life and have very similar feelings of pain to humans? How can God justify this, even if he didn’t create the pain?

 

[tonyrey]

One more question: What about animals like Apes which go through a lot of suffering in life and have very similar feelings of pain to humans? How can God justify this, even if he didn’t create the pain?

Your question implies that God should not have created animals like apes because their suffering is excessive. Yet their greater sensitivity enables them to derive far more enjoyment from life. Every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage…