Animal suffering

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Is it wrong, on the Catholic view, to torture animals unnecessarily? If so, why doesn’t the Catholic Church advocate the eradication of factory farming, where billions upon billions of animals are slaughtered every year and are forced to reside in horrible conditions?

I highly recommend this paper by Stuart Rachels: jamesrachels.org/stuart/veg.pdf

Abstract: Over the last fifty years, traditional farming has been replaced by industrial farming. Unlike traditional farming, industrial farming is abhorrently cruel to animals, environmentally destructive, awful for rural America, and wretched for human health. In this essay, I document those facts, explain why the industrial system has become dominant, and argue that we should boycott industrially produced meat. Also, I argue that we should not even kill animals humanely for food, given our uncertainty about which creatures possess a right to life. In practice, then, we should be vegetarians. To underscore the importance of these issues, I use statistics to show that industrial farming has caused more pain and suffering than the Holocaust.
Spencelo -

Are you a vegan/vegetarian? I’m a vegetarian.

When I first came Catholic I had a strong animal rights stance. I had issue that the CC did not outlaw the usage of meat (due to factory farming). I then realized after deeper consideration that their view is animal friendly and the context of their teaching is reasonable.

See below for our most current Pope’s comments:

Pope has spoken movingly about the exploitation of all beings, particularly of farmed animals. When he was asked about the rights of animals in a 2002 interview, he said, “That is a very serious question. At any rate, we can see that they are given into our care, that we cannot just do whatever we want with them. Animals, too, are God’s creatures . . . Certainly, a sort of industrial use of creatures, so that geese are fed in such a way as to produce as large a liver as possible, or hens live so packed together that they become just caricatures of birds, this degrading of living creatures to a commodity seems to me in fact to contradict the relationship of mutuality that comes across in the Bible.”

Cardinal Ratzinger was echoing official church teachings, as laid out in the Catholic Catechism, which states clearly that ?Animals are God-s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals. . . . It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.-

If I may ask, what part of the CC teaching regarding animals do you struggle with?

Kindly,
James
 
Just a couple of things…

No, we do not have any right to equate the lives lost during the Holocaust to the suffering of animals. While humans and animals both have souls, ours is of a higher order. We have immortal souls, and thus, possess dignity.

To say that if one does not see animal abuse in one’s house, it does not occur anywhere is flawed. Yes, most farm factories are probably very respectable places who do not purposefully maltreat animals; however, there are the exceptions. I refer any of those who are interested to the organization “Mercy for Animals”

mercyforanimals.org/

They have investigated many reports of animal abuse. Most are individual occurrences, but some are inherent in the nature of the business itself. For example, in the egg producing business, it is common practice to sex chicks after birth. Females go on to produce more eggs. Males are destroyed. This is done by throwing the *still living * chicks in grinders. That’s the way it is. Trying to get this business process changed is met with a lot of opposition, of course. In fact, one of MFA’s tactics is to imbed an investigator e.g., a photographer, in a factory where abuse is suspected. Those in the farm factory business decry this and urge their state and local governments to prohibit this practice. They do not want MFA (or anyone else) to “misrepresent” themselves, I guess for fear of being found out. The fact that most governments have bought into this claptrap shows just how powerful an industry factory farming is. After learning about such things, I cannot understand how I am still not a vegan. I am ashamed.

One more nugget…

In the book “The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ”, Emmerich describes the Last Supper. At the point in the meal where the lamb must be sacrificed, Jesus is given the knife. As He slits the neck of the animal, Emmerich notes that the Lord grimaced at the action. I can only speculate that Jesus was identifying with the Lamb, who was soon to suffer for us. However, I also like to think that causing the death of one of His creatures was as distasteful to Him as it should be to us.

To me, the bottom line should be to pray for those who abuse animals, that they repent and do not continue their despicable behavior. Might be a good idea to start a continued prayer thread for this intention…
 
Then I suggest that you read up on the well-documented facts of factory farming – the article I linked to is a good place to start.
Actually, it isn’t, because it’s full of misrepresentations. One hardly knows where to start.

Just a few things very quickly, about cattle. Maybe I will have time to return later. I have actually been around this stuff.
-Cutting calves ears is basically unheard-of among cattlemen. I do understand they used to do this decades ago for identification. I am around cattle and cattlemen all the time, and you just don’t see it.
-Amost no cattle are branded anymore.
-I have seen dehornings and castrations. Calves will bellow when they’re in pain, they almost always do during dehorning, but not afterward. Their perceptions are different from ours. Maybe 2/3 of young bulls exhibit pain during castration; perhaps 1/3 none at all. It’s done when they are very young. After it’s done, they exhibit no signs of pain whatever. Most cattle anymore don’t have horns at all, and are therefore never dehorned. About the only horned cattle left anymore are “decorative longhorns” (nobody dehorns them) horned herefords (prevalent only out west) and shorthorns (same). Some Brahman mixes have very small horns. Some are dehorned, some aren’t. The Angus which are now so prevalent in this country now, never have horns to start with.
-Beef cattle are fed in pastures, on grass, except in the northern corn-growing regions where corn farmers will feed corn “chops” or silage to their cattle. Not much of a “feeder’s” life is spent in a feed lot. They’re pasture-raised to fair size. Often they’re then “backgrounded”, usually on wheat fields, then to feed lots. Feed lot time is 80-120 days. No more than that. Some never go to feed lots, only the best of the best.
-Feedlot animals are not fed much in the way of actual grain. Mostly it’s vegetation like sorghum or milo chops laced with byproducts like distiller’s grain.
-Weaning takes about two weeks. The calf will bellow for its mother off and on for less than than a week. The mother will bellow for its calf perhaps a day. After maybe three days to a week, the calf calms down. All the while, the calf is fed generously. Some do feed some amount of grain by-product, but it’s mostly hay. Hay is grass. Once a calf is weaned, the calf and its mother are indifferent to each other. They are not “sentimental” the way humans are.
-Big commercial feed lots are nasty from a human perspective. But cattle will get just as nasty in a small space on a farm. In neither place is there any way to tell whether they like it, hate it or are indifferent to it. Having segregated a lot of cattle in my time, I would say they’re indifferent. But even in an open field in the wintertime, they’ll befoul the areas where they eat hay or grass. We notice it then because the grass isn’t growing. In the summer, we don’t notice it because of the grass, unless we step in it, but they’re just as dirty then.
-Mother beef cows are kept on the farm until they die, are decrepit or don’t have calves anymore. Twenty years is a mighty old cow, but it’s not at all uncommon to retain a healthy, fertile cow into its teens.
-Very few ranchers feed any grain to their cattle. It’s stupid to do it. It’s even more stupid to confine cattle, and in the big cattle growing states nobody does it.
-Only a very stupid rancher will abuse cattle. It ruins the hide and the meat. An abusive rancher will go broke more often than not. When an 800 lb steer will bring you over $1,000, you treat it as carefully as you would any $1,000 asset.
 
I have to go for now, but before I do, I want to comment on this from the article:

“Poor sanitation and stress make the cows ill. Also, they’re fed grain, which they didn’t
evolve to eat.”

This is just nonsense. Cattle in pastures eat “grain” all the time. Grain is nothing but grass seed. Wheat is a grass. Corn is a grass. Oats are a grass. Cattle eat large amounts of grass seed in pastures. Some grasses produce little, some produce a lot. Some grass seed is as rich or richer than wheat or corn. You can actually see the differences in their appearance when they’re eating grass that has a lot of seed. They look just like grain-fed, because that’s what they are.

And they are quite capable of eating it without ill effect.
 
So you’ve never been in a factory farm then.

Or is your definition of horrible not the same as mine?
Just curious - have you?

Animals that are made to suffer are subject to high stress, diseases, low weight gain, low productivity, decrease pregnancy and a whole host of other ailments that would lower a farmer’s profits.
 
Just curious - have you?

Animals that are made to suffer are subject to high stress, diseases, low weight gain, low productivity, decrease pregnancy and a whole host of other ailments that would lower a farmer’s profits.
Yes I have - there’s a ton of feed lots, pork farms, and chicken farms round here.

I’ve driven round feed lots where the animals are almost belly deep in rancid stinking manure.

And pig farms where the pigs were so overcrowded they were piled on top of each other - there wasn’t enough floor space for them all to stand.

Lower profit per animal perhaps - factor in more animals with lower expenses though and you got more profit.

Animals aren’t necessarily made to suffer- they are allowed to suffer.

More land, more space per animal, more air, more light - they all cost the farmer because they need bigger buildings, different handling systems etc.
 
Weaning takes about two weeks. The calf will bellow for its mother off and on for less than than a week. The mother will bellow for its calf perhaps a day. After maybe three days to a week, the calf calms down. All the while, the calf is fed generously. Some do feed some amount of grain by-product, but it’s mostly hay. Hay is grass. Once a calf is weaned, the calf and its mother are indifferent to each other. They are not “sentimental” the way humans are.
I wondering if people have have ever seen a human weaned? Not many twenty year olds still nursing at their mother’s breast.

Castration today usually involves a rubber band. Dehorning is mostly accomplished through breeding.
 
Yes I have - there’s a ton of feed lots, pork farms, and chicken farms round here.

I’ve driven round feed lots where the animals are almost belly deep in rancid stinking manure.

And pig farms where the pigs were so overcrowded they were piled on top of each other - there wasn’t enough floor space for them all to stand.

Lower profit per animal perhaps - factor in more animals with lower expenses though and you got more profit.

Animals aren’t necessarily made to suffer- they are allowed to suffer.

More land, more space per animal, more air, more light - they all cost the farmer because they need bigger buildings, different handling systems etc.
So how do you get inside these buildings? The large hog farms I’ve been on are very selective about who is allowed to enter their confinement buildings (diseases) - this isn’t stuff you see driving by at 55 MPH.

Anyone that doesn’t even have enough floor space for their animals will soon see thousands of deaths - it just isn’t done.
 
I wondering if people have have ever seen a human weaned? Not many twenty year olds still nursing at their mother’s breast.

Castration today usually involves a rubber band. Dehorning is mostly accomplished through breeding.
A rubber band which cuts off the blood supply allowing the testes to die. I’m not saying it’s cruel, it’s just not a “playful/playground” rubber band. For calves that are not handled often Burdizzo clamps are used.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

I’m a meat eater. But I don’t sentimentalize ranching - I live in Cowtown!
 
So how do you get inside these buildings? The large hog farms I’ve been on are very selective about who is allowed to enter their confinement buildings (diseases) - this isn’t stuff you see driving by at 55 MPH.

Anyone that doesn’t even have enough floor space for their animals will soon see thousands of deaths - it just isn’t done.
Do you want my resume?
 
A rubber band which cuts off the blood supply allowing the testes to die. I’m not saying it’s cruel, it’s just not a “playful/playground” rubber band. For calves that are not handled often Burdizzo clamps are used.
Clamping has largely died out - it wasn’t found to be as effective as claimed. I know the last time we used one was back in the 1970s.
 
Don’t get you.

Why wouldn’t I know?:confused:

I have to tour the farm, see the facilities they already have, measure out the building etc etc.
 
Yes I have - there’s a ton of feed lots, pork farms, and chicken farms round here.

I’ve driven round feed lots where the animals are almost belly deep in rancid stinking manure.

And pig farms where the pigs were so overcrowded they were piled on top of each other - there wasn’t enough floor space for them all to stand.

Lower profit per animal perhaps - factor in more animals with lower expenses though and you got more profit.

Animals aren’t necessarily made to suffer- they are allowed to suffer.

More land, more space per animal, more air, more light - they all cost the farmer because they need bigger buildings, different handling systems etc.
Not to put down Canada. Lots of fine people there. But I have long questioned whether most of Canada is actually a good place to raise cattle. In this part of the U.S., at least, there is never a good reason to have any cattle of any size or age anywhere but on pastures. Even feed lots aren’t really necessary, and in recent years even those have wanted bigger and bigger feeders coming in. Growing season for the various grasses means a lot as well as the temperatures in the winter. That’s why the three biggest cattle producing states are Tx, Ok and Mo. Large portions of those states are almost ideal for cattle in terms of climate, growing season and the kinds of grasses that grow there. Some other places, like Tn and Ky and the extreme upper South are good climatically as well, but they are, in places, too mountainous or are dedicated to more profitable crops.

Some pig farms I have visited are bad…usually those of individual farmers. Most are as clean as pigs can ever get. “Factory farms” for hogs are going out, and the big producers now buy almost exclusively from individuals, but they are pretty exacting as to the conditions in which the hogs are raised. They even specify the precise breed and lineage. I have been in some of those facilities, both corporate and individual, and standards are high. Hogs stink, though, no matter what you do, because hogs’ digestive tracts are a lot like ours, and their feces are just as awful, if not worse. You just can’t potty train a hog. But they do power wash the facilities out scrupulously. Disease is tremendous hazard with hogs. They are subject to nearly every disease that afflicts man, and to some that don’t. To raise hogs successfully, cleanliness is essential.

Good farmers do use farrowing pens, but only for a short time. Mother hogs will inadvertently or intentionally kill some or all of their young, and farrowing pens minimize the hazard.
 
Don’t get you.

Why wouldn’t I know?:confused:

I have to tour the farm, see the facilities they already have, measure out the building etc etc.
What you claim is illogical.

You claim that you saw hogs that were piled on top of each other without even enough floor space to stand. How long do you think animals will survive in that kind of a situation? Not grow, not gain weight, but just survive to the next breath? In that kind of overcrowding they can’t eat because they can’t get to the feeders, they can’t drink because they can’t get to the waterers. They overheat, they stress out and they die. I know you were trying to relay a “death train” like image from the holocaust; the problem is the Jews died by the thousands on those trains in just a day or two of travel. Repeating that kind of treatment with animals on a farm will have the same result - in a day or two you’ll have hundreds if not thousands of dead animals.

As stated earlier – stress out animals = hungry farmer.
 
Just read that part of the article relating to chickens. I have been in big commercial chicken houses, and almost nothing in the portion of the article about chickens is true. Might come back to further comment later.

But just a quick one. Egg producers don’t keep the hens in a space no bigger than a piece of typing paper. Hens, by nature, seek out places to lay their eggs where other chickens can’t directly peck at them. Chickens are mean by nature…little T-Rexes. In commercial egg laying houses, the hens can come and go from the little cubicles in which they lay their eggs. Other than when they are laying the egg (usually one/day) they are not in those little cubicles. If the farmer didn’t provide little “secure places” for them to do it, they would try to find one somehow. It takes only seconds for a hen to lay an egg. The rest of the day, she’s free to roam.

We, of course, would find living in an egg-laying house stupefyingly boring and aesthetically unattractive. But what’s boring to a chicken that would otherwise scratch the ground all day to find bugs, and who has ever observed a chicken admiring a sunset or a rose? Animals aren’t people.
 
Personally, the idea of feed lots is not a good one. I would prefer raising beef cattle the typical way - in a ranch. Why? The cattle would not suffer and I can have more types of feeds available.

Oh, and for the likes of PETA who compare animal husbandry to slavery, the Holocaust and other evils, here’s what I’ll say to their arguments:
SHUT UP!

Seriously, their arguments in order to force the world to become vegans is nothing short of insulting, degrading, condescending and idiotic! I am honestly sick and tired of their garbage! What is more pathetic is that they are invading the Far East!
 
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