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spencelo
Guest
I don’t see how, though you are free to elaborate why you think it is in our nature to eat meat.
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JaneGrey
Guest
See the ‘nature’ argument, by itself, has always seemed problematic. First of all, we are not lions. Secondly,There is nothing inherently wrong in going against one’s nature - we do it all the time - we shave our body hair that has a God-given function, we manufacture machines that enable us to fly etc etc. So this is insufficient argument.
The average, healthy person in an industrialised society can survive without meat. Most just do not want to. Do we have a right to force people to do otherwise?
It is complicated.Some human beings need meat more than others, such as those with celiac disease (they dont actually need meat as such, but it is more difficult for them to live on a vegetarian diet) and Inuits, perhaps.
Human beings have been going ‘against’ nature for centuries, if eating meat is indeed even in our nature.
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Crescentinus
Guest
It seems that some want to convert others into veganism.
To which I respond, objection!
To which I respond, objection!
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sllhouette
Guest
It does require a lot of manpower to CONVINCE people to stop eating meat. We are having trouble convincing people to treat other people with dignity and respect. I would guess that the brothers and sisters in the church just haven’t found time to work to convince people to treat animals with dignity.
Stephen168
New member
I don’t see a problem. True, we are not lions. The cats are carnivores and humans are omnivores. We are designed to eat meat as part of our diet. How much meat is up for much discussion. Because it is how we are designed it is clearly in our nature.
There is a difference between “natural” and “human nature.” There was a time when social scientists would say that making tools to do things was not only our nature, but what differentiated us from other animals. I don’t think they claim it is what makes us different from the other animals anymore.
The larger point is: does or should the Church promote what is not in our nature. I can’t think of a case where it does. In fact it seems to generally condemn what is against our nature and design because we believe God designed us. The Church also believes God created the earth and its environment, so we should take good care of his creation, also
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spencelo
Guest
The Catholic church could easily make an official statement that its members should refrain from buying factory farmed meat, and encourage that the message be repeated every so often at service. I’m not seeing a manpower problem.
Stephen168
New member
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sllhouette
Guest
doing some research:
That last link has a quote from the pope you might appreciate. I think the quote was taken from this book.
Here’s what the CCC says about respect for animals
2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196
2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.
2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.
2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
As to why they don’t make an official statement that its members should refrain from buying factory farmed meat, maybe they have and it just didn’t get much publicity. That happens. Maybe they thought there were better ways to address the issue. Maybe most of the Church is ignorant of the issues. Also, sometimes, I hear people who come off as a little crazy talk about these things. I have an unfortunate tendency to discount the problems because of that…
I also have to point out that far too rarely do we have such official statements made a with a command to repeat things at mass (fyi: you probably don’t care, but we never call it a service, but a mass. I won’t get into why unless you really want to know). Indeed, I don’t think there are enough such statements and encouragements about the dignity of the human person, much less the dignity of animals.
Also, I always have to remind myself to question what I am told and question my assumptions. I find this very enlightening: youtube.com/watch?v=IRVdiHu1VCc. In the Church we have seen the same decline in work that he mentions at the end of the video.
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spencelo
Guest
I’m pretty certain it isn’t the official church position that buying factory farmed meat is wrong.
This is most certainly the case.
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sllhouette
Guest
One thing you have to realize is that the Church is VERY VERY VERY EXTREMELY slow moving. It is a very big organization and it takes a great deal of time and effort to get it to move on any one particular issue. It’s so easy to say that the bishops should just come out and say X, Y or Z, but the Church is more complicated than that.
Haha, and it is the case because we don’t have the man power to research and present the issues in a convincing way. There are so many more things that I feel the laity are, in general, ignorant of. There are many Catholics who don’t seem to know the most basic details about Catholicism. It is really very distressing and lamentable.
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spencelo
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This isn’t a new issue, and the research has already been done by many others for decades. This isn’t an issue where the merits of the position can be reasonably questioned, once the facts are known, which again has been the case for decades. If you read the paper I linked to in the op (and other literature on the subject), you’d realize that the problem of factory-farming is pretty much on par with the Holocaust. A problem as severe (even more so) than the Holocaust is surely an issue worthy of concern by the “higher-ups” in the church.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Nor should it be. I have been in factory farms many times. I have also seen the videos of those who oppose them, supposedly showing the conditions on factory farms. They couldn’t be more different.
That’s not to say that there are no abusive factory farms anywhere. But I have been in a lot of them, and they don’t resemble the oppositionist films I have seen. Nor do they fit the verbal descriptions either.
When it comes to the Church opposing the eating of meat, it might be added that 1/3 of the earth’s temperate surface is grassland, unfit for any other agricultural use. Stopping the eating of meat would seriously curtail the human food supply. Of the grass-eating domestic animals, only cattle are ever fed grain. But they don’t need to be, and in most countries are not. Therefore, grass-eaters like cattle, sheep and goats are not inherently eaters of anything humans rely on for nourishment, but can be regarded as gifts from God capable of turning the inedible into edible, nutritious food.
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Ridgerunner
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Both animals and humans can suffer. That’ s true. But anyone who is truly familiar with animals knows that animals and humans do not suffer from the same things, to the same degree or in the same way.
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sllhouette
Guest
A Decade is very short in the eyes of the Church. It really moves that slow. Indeed, we have seen that the church can sometimes take much longer than a few decades to really get moving on an issue. But I have found some evidence that there is some movement begun to this end. In case you didn’t read it, here is the quote from Benedict:
Some small tips when talking to Catholics on this that I think might help you. Make sure to avoid extreme positions. Saying things like, “we should not eat any meat at all” is going to set the person against you. Saying something like “we should not support people who horribly mistreat animals” is going to be way more effective. I say that, not because I have seen you doing it, but I have seen other people try to hold extremes like that and it’s counter productive really.
Also, I understand how you feel when you talk about the Holocaust, but this comparison is not going to be effective on many people. I’m trying to figure out how to explain why. I think that when you say that it comes off as you believe that an animal has the same dignity as a human being. Whether you do or not aside, Catholics don’t believe that and when you say that they might just place you in the category of “those crazy people” and ignore what you are actually saying. Which would be unfortunate. I’m trying to think of a better comparison, but this is just something so different than anything we have experienced in history. Maybe talking about what is happening in your local area would be effective. Visiting a local ‘factory farm’ and documenting what you see and sharing it. As ridgerunner illustrates, I personally have a tendency to second guess things that I am shown or told simply because I have known some people to over exaggerate. If you have first hand experience to share with people you will seem much more credible.
Stephen168
New member
Excellent video by Mike Rowe.
You have clearly shown that the Catholic Church is against cruelty to animals.
But factory farming is not cruel, therefore there is no reason to condemn them. In fact they help feed people and feeding people is a wonderful thing.
spencelo has been sucked in by the vegetarian propaganda.
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sllhouette
Guest
Was he trying to say that all factory farming is cruel or that there are some grievous instances of cruelty within factory farming? Obviously we can’t make the general statement that everyone throughout the country is behaving morally. Indeed, he might be in an area where things are particularly bad. Should we just dismiss him outright?
I understand how you feel, but… ad hominem. Also, why is it that when you say that I picture veggie tales.
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spencelo
Guest
Certain “extreme” positions are rational and fully justified – in fact, some are the only rational positions to hold. And “being effective” depends not only on how well I communicate and defend my position, but on the willingness of the listener to follow reason. People who deny that factory farming system is systemically cruel are simply ignorant of the facts (either about the system or about capacity of animals to experience horrendous suffering.)
Moreover, saying “we should not support people who horribly mistreat animals” sounds a bit like George W. Bush saying “the U.S. doesn’t torture” – while sanctioning waterboarding. If people agree that we shouldn’t horribly mistreat animals, then they ought to agree that we shouldn’t buy factory farmed meat (because animals raised in factory farms are horribly mistreated).
The comparison isn’t all that crazy when you know the facts. The ineffectiveness of the comparison has pretty much everything to do with people not willing to consider the facts, based of a pure gut reaction to comparison, rather than on an objective analysis of whether the two situations are comparable.
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spencelo
Guest
You can only say this because you don’t understand the factory farming system (I invite you to read the linked paper in the op).
The fact that factory farming helps feed people doesn’t mean the system isn’t cruel to animals - it just means the system is useful for humans. “Helpful to humans” doesn’t necessarily translate to “not cruel.”
Stephen168
New member
Yes, I think he was saying that all factory farming was cruel even before he actually said it again. My point was in defending the Pope. We are taught to not be cruel to animals. We don’t expect him to list ever address on earth were cruelty may be taking place.
I would not call pointing out that someone has accepted a lie as an ad hominem. Just what he says is true, is not true.
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FaithBuild18
Guest
** It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons. **
People seem to miss that part a lot.
Human > Animal
The biggest problem with factory farming is the way in which we personify the animals being farmed. They aren’t people, they’re animals. They’re put to pretty good use.
People seem to miss that part a lot.
Human > Animal
The biggest problem with factory farming is the way in which we personify the animals being farmed. They aren’t people, they’re animals. They’re put to pretty good use.
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