Animals after death

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Mintaka said:
Actually, Creation did fall. It fell through the sin of Adam and Eve. Just as Adam and Eve were set up to be the heads of the human race, they were put at the head of Creation also. When they fell, they messed up all of Creation as well as the human race, brought death and destruction into the world, etc.

Yes, this stinks for the animals, plants, rocks, gases, plasmas, etc., even more than it stinks for us. Creation has a right to groan for salvation.

But yes, dogs are fallen. Not through their fault, not through any dogs’ fault. If Adam had not fallen, dogs would not die. But Adam and Eve betrayed dogdom (and plantdom, and rockdom, and every electron in the universe) when all Creation fell through their sin.
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It was the Fall- of Man. I agree, unfortunately animals have had to bear the consequences too.
 
yllektmas said:
I’m not sure what part of what I wrote is confusing to you.
The part that is confusing me is that you are stating your posts as matter of fact without sighting anything of REAL USE for anyone who is truly searching for an answer. Not even a reason why you believe what you post. without meaning any disrespect, I am sorry to say that your responses sound condescending, as if you are the end all to this discussion. I was hoping that you might have been in this for a legitimate debate instead of talking down to people. But again, you are presenting your posts as if you are an expert on the matter.

Example of repeated responses
The Church teaching states that it is humans who have an immortal soul and a supernatural end. When we die we either go to Hell or are saved (Heaven or Purgatory first).
okay, this one is agreed as this topic is regarding to animals, and we do have The Holy Bible to back this one up for you. So no sighting is expected for this comment.

Animals do not have an immortal soul and do not have a supernatural end.
Really? Why? This one you seem to have a very strong belief in, so please sight some reasoning for this, or direct the reader to a definitive location where one can find the exact information which leads to your very passionate belief.

When they die they are neither condemned to Hell nor saved.
Exactly!!! Animals DO NOT NEED salvation because they did not disobey GOD. Humankind did. But why do you believe this? again, please sight your reasoning.

They simply cease to exist.
I have no idea where this is found so again, Please sight your sources or reasoning

I just noticed you stated animals have souls too. That is correct but they are not spiritual or immortal
Please re-read my previous post as I explain that this is more than likely NOT the case. But I would love to hear your response as to why you believe this.

Again, I do not mean any disrespect. But I was under the assumption that this thread, and the forum for that matter, was created in the search of resourceful answers, not one repeated phrase as law. And by no means did I mean to upset you or anyone else. Like I stated in my last post, this is a topic that has been debated and a question that has been asked for many years. A topic that NO ONE seems to have presented the answer to where the one searching comes away without any doubts. This would be a wonderful environment for everyone to share their knowledge and resources in a manner which we all can learn.
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See the Church teaching. It states man is ordered to a supernatural end, not animals.

CCC 366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

CCC 367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. “Spirit” signifies that** from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.**

CCC 382 “Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity” (GS 14 § 1). The doctrine of the faith affirms that the spiritual and immortal soul is created immediately by God.

I would also recommend reading a book well known to many forum members called Theology For Beginners by F.J. Sheed where he explains the difference between a human spiritual immortal soul and the non-spiritual mortal soul of animals.
 
thistle said:
See the Church teaching. It states man is ordered to a supernatural end, not animals.

CCC 366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.

CCC 367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people “wholly”, with “spirit and soul and body” kept sound and blameless at the Lord’s coming. The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul. “Spirit” signifies that** from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.**

CCC 382 “Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity” (GS 14 § 1). The doctrine of the faith affirms that the spiritual and immortal soul is created immediately by God.

I would also recommend reading a book well known to many forum members called Theology For Beginners by F.J. Sheed where he explains the difference between a human spiritual immortal soul and the non-spiritual mortal soul of animals.
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Thank you thistle 🙂

Though the CCC sources do explain Humanities soul, they do not define the animals soul. And I agree with your comments on the Human soul 100% 🙂

I think that since the Catholic Church is more focused on our salvation as we are the sinners who through our original parents Adam and Eve, the whole issue of animals souls have been a back burner type of topic. Making finding a definitive answer where they are concerned so difficult, and resulting in conflicting ideas. Being that they were the innocent ones caught in the fall and the shut out from paradise, I do still think that with GOD being pure love and mercy,especially for not giving up on us sinners, that HE wouldn’t just create the animals as a temporary companion to be cast aside, especially since they do have a capacity to love and be loved. and after all, LOVE is the image in which we are created after, as GOD is pure love.

I also think that by us knowing that if it weren’t for our sins the animals of the world wouldn’t be suffering along side us it teaches us the compassion the Father shows us. As they, the animals, know that we are the cause of their unjust suffering, yet still they are loyal companions. That’s why I do believe they have a place in the whole paradise, and salvation plan, as well as their glory to GOD which has never faltered since day one.

And I also thank you for the recommendation for F.J Sheed’s book. I will definitely pick that up for a read.

👍👍
 
Catholic90 said:
Is a soul energy?

Energy cannot be created or destroyed. That is basic physics.)
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Actually, yes it can. ‘Physics’ applies only to the physical world (hence the name). Physics makes no claim on metaphysical reality ( again by definition).

As Catholics we know and understand that yes, energy CAN be created. The entire universe was created from nothing, and, given E=Mc^2, that is a LOT of energy. God (a metaphysical being) created the physical world, and all it’s energy, from nothing.

In a deeper answer to your question. souls are metaphysical states that interact with matter. The presence of a soul is what distingushes living matter from dead matter (by defintion)

In addtion, the soul of a material being provides the matter with certain capabilities, such as animation or vegiation ( metabolism). In humans, the soul provides certain rational powers, such as intellect. The soul of humans is rational and immortal, the soul of animals, plants and such are non rational and material. They exist only to animate the matter for a period of time.
 
thistle said:
The Church teaches that only humans have supernatural souls. By definition that means all other animals do not.
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I think it’s more like the Church teaching that humans have supernatural souls, but not defining beyond that. There has never been a need to define beyond our own souls. We know what is, but we do not know what isn’t.

There is a very strong moral argument for the afterlife of animals - many animals exist only to suffer, and many animals exist who mostly suffer with little joy. It is illogical that a loving God would create innocent beings capable of suffering, then allowing them to suffer, perhaps even only to suffer, without that suffering being recompensed.

If people don’t believe animals can suffer, and that they only feel pain as an effect of neurotransmitters, then I suggest they run their dog’s paw through a blender and sit back and watch his face and how he experiences his pain and the betrayal of his trust.

If all creation is made for eventual salvation, then animals must be part of that. After all, it’s unlikely that God has limited space for all of us.
 
Stephen_Korsman said:
I think it’s more like the Church teaching that humans have supernatural souls, but not defining beyond that. There has never been a need to define beyond our own souls. We know what is, but we do not know what isn’t.

There is a very strong moral argument for the afterlife of animals - many animals exist only to suffer, and many animals exist who mostly suffer with little joy. It is illogical that a loving God would create innocent beings capable of suffering, then allowing them to suffer, perhaps even only to suffer, without that suffering being recompensed.

If people don’t believe animals can suffer, and that they only feel pain as an effect of neurotransmitters, then I suggest they run their dog’s paw through a blender and sit back and watch his face and how he experiences his pain and the betrayal of his trust.

If all creation is made for eventual salvation, then animals must be part of that. After all, it’s unlikely that God has limited space for all of us.
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👍
 
Joe_Kelley said:
So where did it come from? 😃
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Energy is a property of the Universe. Hence it didn’t need to be created specifically when the Universe was created. It is a property of the Universe just as for example its size or mass is. God didn’t first create the Universe and then separately create its size and mass. The latter are properties of the former.
 
Newbie2 said:
I’ve written this before in similar threads:

It is helpful, for yours truly, to think of animals as a reflection of the Almighty. Whether or not we see them in paradise is immaterial. Interesting to speculate, but immaterial.

We see God in every other human being. I think we see a bit of him in (nearly) every creature…

…except some cats that I’ve treated. They are a reflection of Voldemort. 😉
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OH MY STARS!!!

I laughed and laughed this morning over your post!!

…except some cats that I’ve treated. They are a reflection of Voldemort.

I’m a HUGE cat fan and Harry Potter as well! (not Voldemort):mad:

This subject though is fascinating and of great interest to me as it has been on my mind lately.

My beloved cat died 2 days before Christmas and it has been a very difficult time for me.:crying:

He was part of our family for almost 10 years and his passing has left a BIG hole in my heart.:(😦

I agree completely with your comment that GOD is in everything! How can anyone look at all of the wonderful things He has given to us and NOT see Him there?

As for animals being in Heaven? The ONE thing we can ALL agree on, we’ll find out when we get there!:hug3:
 
Cirdan_XII said:
Energy is a property of the Universe. Hence it didn’t need to be created specifically when the Universe was created. It is a property of the Universe just as for example its size or mass is. God didn’t first create the Universe and then separately create its size and mass. The latter are properties of the former.
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In other words, energy was created. 😛

Which pretty much defeats Catholic90’s initial premise :cool:
 
thistle said:
The Church teaches that only humans have supernatural souls. By definition that means all other animals do not.
Its a different topic as to whether God might recreate animals for Heaven but when animals die they do not go to heaven.
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Who’s to say whether or not ‘spiritual’ animals exist though? Our physical world has animals, so why shouldn’t there be others in the next one? My opinion is that there may be animals in heaven that may never have even existed on earth. I think the matter is entirely left to speculation and there really isn’t a problem whether there is or is not animals in heaven.

However, I choose to believe there is, as God has put them on Earth, adding to its beauty and complexity, so why would God simply have a glowing city full of human souls and Himself?

I’ve heard it countless times: “All we need is God Himself, and you should be content with it!” 🤓 Obviously, yes, but God didn’t just make Earth a pile of dirt with some water & plants - He obviously saw animals as good helpers and companions for humanity. Thus, why shouldn’t He have some up in His place? Perhaps even angels could have pets for all we know.
 
Judaism doesn’t speak too much about the existence or nature of the afterlife for humans, let alone animals; the focus in Judaism has always been the present life. Most Jews, however, do believe in a human afterlife, and some even the notion of different levels or gradations of being in G-d’s Presence, all of which are infinitely satisfying to us based on our needs and capacities. I personally believe that animals, who are relatively innocent compared to humans, do go to heaven. The reason is I cannot envision such a merciful and just G-d destroying any of the innocent souls of His creation, especially those who can elicit from humans their better angels.
 
Stephen_Korsman said:
Yet as a dogma it has yet to be formally defined, and is open for debate.
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But the only way one can do that is to either
  1. Claim that one knows more about the subject than Aquinas did
or
  1. That Aquinas didn’t know as much as he claimed to.
Either way, it’s not a fun proposition.

Especially when various Pope had this to say about him
Pope St. Pius V declared him a Doctor of The Church, saying he was “the most brilliant light of the Church,” whose works are “the most certain rule of Christian doctrine by which he enlightened the Apostolic Church in answering conclusively numberless errors … which illumination has often been evident in the past and recently stood forth prominently in the decrees of the Council of Trent.”
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Pope. Benedict XIII wrote to the Order of Preachers that they should “*pursue with energy your Doctor’s works, more brilliant than the sun and written without the shadow of error. *These works made the Church illustrious with wonderful erudition, since they march ahead and proceed with unimpeded step, protecting and vindicating by the surest rule of Christian doctrine, the truth of our holy religion.”
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Pope Leo XIII stated that “this is the greatest glory of Thomas, altogether his own and shared with no other Catholic Doctor, that the Fathers of Trent, in order to proceed in an orderly fashion during the conclave, desired to have opened upon the altar together with the Scriptures and the decrees of the Supreme Pontiffs, the Summa of St. Thomas Aquinas whence they could draw counsel, reasons and answers.”
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Pope Leo again - “This point is vital, that Bishops expend every effort to see that young men destined to be the hope of the Church should be imbued with the holy and heavenly doctrine of the Angelic Doctor. In those places where young men have devoted themselves to the patronage and doctrine of St. Thomas, true wisdom will flourish, drawn as it is from solid principles and explained by reason in an orderly fashion … Theology proceeding correctly and well according to the plan and method of Aquinas is in accordance with our command. Every day We become more clearly aware how powerfully Sacred Doctrine taught by its master and patron, Thomas, affords the greatest possible utility for both clergy and laity
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.
Pius XI said that “indeed, We so approve of the tributes paid to his almost divine brilliance that we believe Thomas should be called not only Angelic but Common or Universal Doctor of the Church. As innumerable documents of every kind attest, the Church has adopted his doctrine for her own.
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I italizied some of the highlights.
 
I rather doubt that there will ever be a formal doctrine or dogma on this. It is not essential to our salvation that we know.
 
Brendan said:
But the only way one can do that is to either
  1. Claim that one knows more about the subject than Aquinas did
or
  1. That Aquinas didn’t know as much as he claimed to.
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  1. Aquinas is one way of understanding the Catholic faith, but not the only legitimate way - he is not the standard of the Eastern Church, for instance. He teaches that the soul of man is different, but not that animals have no afterlife due to their different soul. He doesn’t deal wit the moral justice argument, or some of the others - his argument is limited to the nature of the soul. As the popes said, his teaching is powerful and in accordance with the Catholic faith and worthy of use as a standard. That doesn’t put an end to legitimate debate on the matter, however.
 
I find it interesting how some people seemed threatened by the idea of animals in heaven…God is merciful to ALL his creation- including animals. I believe He has a special place in heaven for them. Why are some people so threatened by that idea?🤷
 
If the Bible is silent on my beloved hound’s afterlife, why is anyone here so definitive about whether or not I get to see him again? I find it rather presumptuous that Catholics can seek to limit God’s rewards for us, which may well include our loved animals. We should not limit the possibility of what lies waiting for those of us who die in God’s friendship. For some of us, the prospect of being reunited with one’s deceased, much-loved dog is a cause for far more joy than, say, meeting some extended family members.

Our God is kind and I cannot think that God is unaware that, in my case anyway, I would appreciate seeing my dogs again.

I should add that I have had my young niece and nephew turned off Catholicism because their parish priest told them, not long after their dog died, that they would never see the dog again.
 
Death entered the world because of Original Sin. This means every living creature that God created–maggots, roaches, dogs, amoeba, viruses (?), intestinal parasites:p–were never meant to die, according to God’s original plan of creation. So when everything is renewed (the New Heaven and New Earth), all of material creation that fell due to Adam’s Sin will be resurrected and brought to perfection. Seriously, if this is not so, then it would be ridiculous to say that death has finally been defeated by our Lord Jesus Christ.

I refuse to believe that my beloved pet dog who died last year is totally overcomed by death. One day he will rise.
 
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