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germys9
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Did animals eat other animals before the fall? I would argue that it is in their nature to do so, therefore they did. Any thoughts or comments??
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twinc
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animals or humans did not eat animals before the fall - they were created herbivores and therefore vegetarians - nature only became red in tooth and claw after the worldwide flood when all the fruits and veg had been destroyed - twinc
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roveau
Guest
God created carnivores and herbivores before the Fall, each having specialized teeth and means of digestion to cope with those diets. Many dinosaurs were carnivorous and they were definitely created before the Fall.
Insects are also specialized into carnivorous and herbivorous categories and an imbalance between the two can create plagues such as that of the locusts.
I believe that God created the creatures though the process of evolution. There is no period in the fossil record of land animals that had only herbivores.
Insects are also specialized into carnivorous and herbivorous categories and an imbalance between the two can create plagues such as that of the locusts.
I believe that God created the creatures though the process of evolution. There is no period in the fossil record of land animals that had only herbivores.
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Rascalking
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Well, I wasn’t there (I’m only 30-born a few years after the whole, “Garden of Eden” thing
)But I have a feeling the world was perfect before we (humankind) screwed things up. Perfect means we ate only plants. Animals didn’t eat each other-The lion layed down with the lamb, and my Bichon Frise could walk down the road without being bothered by that nasty German Shepard next door.
I think things went downhill when humankind rebelled.
Agian, just my opinion.
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Luke65
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The answer to the question, which has already been given, is in my signature. And it is the Gospel Truth. God bless.
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Rascalking
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Well, it very well might be your signature my friend, but it’s still so much fun to talk about!
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Luke65
Guest
Well, it very well might be your signature my friend, but it’s still so much fun to talk about!
I actually hate talking about it.
I mean, I would love it if we all agreed! But I hate the fighting. But not having as much time to spend here is a good excuse. And the ban on Evolution also works in my favor! But yea, sometimes duty calls…
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Wowbagger
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They must have.
At the very, very, very, very earliest, the Fall could conceivably have happened around 7 Million BC, and is probably far more recent (circa 100,000 BC). Meanwhile, we have strong evidence favoring carnivorous life on Earth throughout the billions of years between the emergence of bacterial life and the rise of lingual, immortally ensouled Man.
Ergo, animals ate other animals before the Fall. For once, science sheds light on a theological question. This happens much more rarely than Science would like to think, but it does happen from time to time.
EDIT: It is worth clarifying that immortally ensouled humans did not live in death or sin before the Fall. Hence the quotations Luke65 references in his signature.
Animals eating other animals is not a disorder in the state of nature. God did not design natural beings, without immortal souls, to be immortal in the flesh. They have always been bound to the world of flesh and death. Humans are remarkable because God created us to be the exceptions to that rule, to hold dominion over this transient world and be permanent within it.
Thus there is no contradiction between the teaching that sin and death entered the world at the Fall and the rather plain fact that death was a reality for natural creatures before the creation of Man.
At the very, very, very, very earliest, the Fall could conceivably have happened around 7 Million BC, and is probably far more recent (circa 100,000 BC). Meanwhile, we have strong evidence favoring carnivorous life on Earth throughout the billions of years between the emergence of bacterial life and the rise of lingual, immortally ensouled Man.
Ergo, animals ate other animals before the Fall. For once, science sheds light on a theological question. This happens much more rarely than Science would like to think, but it does happen from time to time.
EDIT: It is worth clarifying that immortally ensouled humans did not live in death or sin before the Fall. Hence the quotations Luke65 references in his signature.
Animals eating other animals is not a disorder in the state of nature. God did not design natural beings, without immortal souls, to be immortal in the flesh. They have always been bound to the world of flesh and death. Humans are remarkable because God created us to be the exceptions to that rule, to hold dominion over this transient world and be permanent within it.
Thus there is no contradiction between the teaching that sin and death entered the world at the Fall and the rather plain fact that death was a reality for natural creatures before the creation of Man.
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Rascalking
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I don’t know if I would. How boring would this place be?!
I would love it if we all agreed! …
Just kidding. If everyone agreed with me on politics/art/religion, then heck, the world would be a great place!
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TommyWommy
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How 'bout this…Did animals eat people before the fall? Did Adam and Eve need to fear for their lives when lions and tigers and bears were in the vicinity? 
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geoformeo
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Absolutely they did. The fossil record is replete with carnivorous animals long before the advent of man, as Wowbagger previously noted. It was actually through a “carnivorous” action that single-celled organisms became multicellular organisms. I think that those who hold to the “all vegetarians before the fall” belief do not understand that our God is a God of order and balance, and the carnivore/herbivore/omnivore set-up that we see in the animal kingdom is precisely the kind of balance that nature would need to have to maintain its diversity of life and a stable global ecosystem. Think rabbits or bugs with no predators…
I don’t believe that physical death came through the fall. Spiritual death and the loss of eternal life with God, yes. But physical death must have been a reality prior to the fall, even for Adam and Eve. I have 3 reasons for believing this: 1) Adam and Eve could have easily accidentally fallen off a cliff. Even perfect genetics would not prevent death in this case. 2) God told Adam and Eve to “be fruitful and multiply”. Multiplication without death leads to an infinite population with finite resources. Again, our God is a God of balance and order. (No, I am not suggesting the current world is overpopulated, I’m merely making a rational point.) 3) Christ and Our Lady were both fully human, fully perfect, and both died. (Of course, it goes without saying that Christ was also fully divine.)
The story is about more than just natural food for natural life. Adam and Eve wanted to be like God and have eternal life, Who, by the way, did not have a body at the time.
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Luke65
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Come on, brother, I think you need to spend a little less time in the science lab, and a little more time on theology, especially if you would deign to teach the faith (James 3:1). Heck, it’s right there in the Catechism!
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zdon011
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The Fall definitely brought (physical and spiritual) death to Adam and mankind, but I’m not sure about the rest of creation. Animals do not sin.
Where St Paul writes about Adam’s sin bringing death to ‘creation’, he uses a Greek word which tends to denote mankind (as a ‘creature’), rather than the whole natural world.
This (Protestant-based) website has some fairly competent scientific and Biblical commentary on the topic:
reasons.org/creature-mortality-creation-or-fall
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geoformeo
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Luke,
I stand corrected. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, and I now fall into Wowbagger’s camp. I guess I can bring my philosophical questions about this to the Lord someday.
But I ask that you refrain from such disdain for all scientific things and people, as I think that you forget that the Work of God (Creation) is also divine revelation, and that for the scientist: “The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are.” CCC Paragraph 159
Believe me, I would love to spend more time studying theology and less time in the science lab. Unfortunately, one pays the bills while the other does not.
And please do not judge the state of one’s catechesis or ability to be a catechist on a matter such as this. For one thing, I have never taught my previous erroneous position to my students, nor do I intend to now that I have been enlightened. And secondly, who has the entire CCC memorized? I do the best I can and I am still learning. I’m not afraid to admit that. But I most certainly do not intentionally teach heresy, and I think it is very uncharitable to make such an accusation. I know fully well the gravity of being a teacher for the Church.
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twinc
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The mighty T/Rex was a herbivore and those big teeth were for ripping away branches etc - btw it will be at the end as it was in the beginning - God did not make death “for they shall not hurt or harm in all my holy mountain” for the wolf has dwell with the lamb and the leopard shall lie down with the kid.The calf and the lion and sheep shall abide together and the lion shall eat straw like the ox[Isa.11:6-7 & 65:25] - twinc
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Wowbagger
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I have some thoughts on this. Disclaimer: I am not a theologian.
I was just raised by them.
The way I hear it told, Adam and Eve were not necessarily enslaved to physical laws until the Fall. They were given enormous spiritual gifts, some of which – such as the gift of immortality – clearly contradict the universal law that matter decays. They were, in a very a real, metaphysical manner, raised up above the Earth and given dominion over it. The spirit was the true master of the flesh. The Fall brought them crashing back down to Earth. Our spirits have been slaves to the flesh (as Paul often and loudly writes) ever since.
We saw this when Christ was raised from the dead. The Gospels speak quite clearly about how the Risen Lord walked through walls, veiled himself from his disciples on the road to Emmaus, and did various other things that are clearly impossible for normal physical bodies to do. This is because the Resurrected Body of Christ was a redemption of fallen human flesh to its perternatural state – and a prefigurement of the resurrected bodies that await us all when the Lord returns and the world is remade. (Alleluia, alleluia.)
So, yes, Adam and Eve could have fallen off a cliff. But they would not have died… until the Fall brought Man back down to the level of the beasts and we, too, began to eat from the trough of Death.
When every man has, literally, supernatural powers, resources become much less of a problem. When every man can also just take five minutes off of his busy day to talk directly to God (as apparently was possible for Man before the Fall, perhaps because our preternatural bodies were able to see Him with eyes infused with the spirit), you can work out any space problems pretty fast.
I don’t think Our Lady ever actually died, as such. That’s why they call it the “dormition” of Mary. And, then, of course, she was assumed body and soul into Heaven. That’s a fairly minor point, though. Much more important is the death of Christ. Now, Aquinas argues that Christ took on the defects and infirmities of fallen Man as part of His Incarnation not because it was necessary, but because without taking on the infirmities of fallen Man (including death), he could not assume the punishment for sin and he could not complete his mission of redemption. This seems reasonable to me. Summa article linked here.
So, yeah. Mankind did not die before the Fall. All of it sounds kind of flashy and even cartoonish (“preternatural Man had superpowers?!”), but all of it is quite logical and reasonable when carefully considered. Like much of our Faith, it sounds odd until suddenly it’s the only thing that makes sense anymore.
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Luke65
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I didn’t know that you taught in a classroom, I was referring to teaching it here. And I was charitable in assuming that you simply didn’t know the Church’s teaching, not that you had rejected it. And I don’t have “disdain for all scientific things and people” for crying out loud! Talk about uncharitable…
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rossum
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It will indeed be at the end as it was in the beginning: "There shall no more be an infant of days there, nor an old man that shall not fill up his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed. (Emphasis added) Isaiah 65:20 Isaiah is describing the New Jerusalem.
Death for both animals and plants was present before humans.
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twinc
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btw being herbivores man and animals lived in harmony and did not eat each other - just be reasonable and imagine the scenario - T/Rex with an enormous stomach to fill and appetite to satisfy being super heavy and cumbersome and not quick enough to catch anything or being exhausted trying to do so all day and not even being able to hide himself and without making a noise or cracking any twigs creeping up slowly and stealthily on his prey would have become extinct in no time at all providing massive steaks going to waste - btw there were no fossils before the flood because fossils are a result of sudden and massive burial or else they get eaten or rot or decay - how comes it then that most don’t seem to know or realise all this - twinc
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germys9
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Actually, the Church does not have a definitive teaching on this.
Your own signature logically contradicts your answer. Plants are living beings. Therefore, animals that eat only plants still “kill” a living being. There would still be death. The only logically consistent view you can hold if you claim there was absolutely no death before the fall is that animals did not eat or ate non-living beings such as rocks.
If you read the Genesis account carefully, Adam and Eve were not necessarily created immortal (Genesis 3:22).
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