Animals have souls?!?

[1ke]

Preaching to the choir 1ke. The fact that I didn’t spell it out should NOT be considered an endorsement on my part of the class instructor’s actions.

It concerns me, based on the OP’s description of the events, that the instructor actually **subscribes **to this incorrect belief rather than it being a case of dissembling to avoid a [percevied] difficult conversation about pets.

The instructor presented as fact something contrary to the faith and told the OP that they were “wrong”. The OP was not wrong.

 

[GodInside]

Will we have animals again at the end of time, or is God so beautiful that we will want nothing else?

 

[1ke]

Will we have animals again at the end of time, or is God so beautiful that we will want nothing else?

We do not know.

 

[Catholic90]

We do not know.

Correct - we do NOT know! Therefore, one cannot state authoritatively that they are NOT in heaven, either! Because we DO NOT KNOW!

And animals can and do love. I am so thoroughly convinced of that that nothing anyone says will ever convince me otherwise.

I simply believe that God will take care of ALL of His creation.

 

[1ke]

Correct - we do NOT know! Therefore, one cannot state authoritatively that they are NOT in heaven, either! Because we DO NOT KNOW!

That is not the question you asked. You asked if animals would exist at the end of time-- the new heave and the new earth. We do not know. You did not ask about current animals, you asked about future animals at the end of time.

This is NOT the same question as what happens to animals living today who die. We do know that material souls of animals cease to exist when they die.

And animals can and do love.

No, they do not. To do so requires the principles of a spiritual soul that animals lack.

I am so thoroughly convinced of that that nothing anyone says will ever convince me otherwise.

Choosing willfully to refusal to accept what the Church actually teaches-- that man alone is destined for union with God-- has a name.

I simply believe that God will take care of ALL of His creation.

That does not mean all of creation has the same end. Only man has an eternal end. This is Church teaching 101.

It is really quite disturbing how many people reject Church teaching.

 

[Catholic90]

That is not the question you asked. You asked if animals would exist at the end of time-- the new heave and the new earth. We do not know. You did not ask about current animals, you asked about future animals at the end of time.

This is NOT the same question as what happens to animals living today who die. We do know that material souls of animals cease to exist when they die.

No, they do not. To do so requires the principles of a spiritual soul that animals lack.

Choosing willfully to refusal to accept what the Church actually teaches-- that man alone is destined for union with God-- has a name.

That does not mean all of creation has the same end. Only man has an eternal end. This is Church teaching 101.

It is really quite disturbing how many people reject Church teaching.

1ke, I am not going to argue with you.

I have had animals all my life, and some animals have had me (those who have cats in their lives know exactly what I am saying!). I am convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that those animals knew how to love. They knew how to love better than some people I have known.

I am also convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that God takes care of all of His creation! He created it, and He will take care of it!

So, I refuse to argue with you, therefore, will we have to agree to disagree. My salvation does not rest upon whether or not God puts His animals in Heaven! I know what I believe, and you do not have to agree. Your salvation does not rest upon whether or not God puts His animals in heaven either!!

I find it amusing how many people get SOOO worked up about this. The bottom line is NOBODY KNOWS, and we won’t know until we die.

So everyone, just relax. Of all the problems that need to be dealt with, this is not even on the radar screen! I trust that God will take care of every creature in His own way.

 

[1ke]

My salvation does not rest upon whether or not God puts His animals in Heaven!

Your salvation does not rest upon whether or not God puts His animals in heaven either!!

Beliefs matter. Incorrect beliefs and denial of Church teaching has consequences and yes it does matter. Beliefs that animals and people are the same has led to the errors propogated by all of these groups that center on worshiping the earth (Gaia, etc, and New Age thought), putting animals on par with humans and giving animals “rights”. These are errors of Eastern and New Age thought regarding animals, people, reincarnation, and they are false doctrines.

It is dangerous to stray from the truth in small things as well as large.

I find it amusing how many people get SOOO worked up about this. The bottom line is NOBODY KNOWS, and we won’t know until we die.

It is not in the least amusing when people are led astray by these wrong-headed notions that anthropomorphize animals.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Human beings are the only physical creature that possesses intellect and will-- the properties of a spiritual soul.

1ke,

I agree with the majority of what you are saying on this thread – and I think I understand what your important overarching points – but, I’m not sure we can say that we are the only physical creature that possesses an intellect and will, only that we are the only ones that we know of and we are the only ones revealed. It’s possible, I suppose, that there could be some sort of physical, though non-Human, being somewhere that has an intellect and will. Wouldn’t you say so?

VC

 

[1ke]

1ke,

I agree with the majority of what you are saying on this thread – and I think I understand what your important overarching points – but, I’m not sure we can say that we are the only physical creature that possesses an intellect and will, only that we are the only ones that we know of and we are the only ones revealed. It’s possible, I suppose, that there could be some sort of physical, though non-Human, being somewhere that has an intellect and will. Wouldn’t you say so?

VC

No. It is important to know what it means to have intellect and will.

Intellect and will are the two properties of the spiritual soul. It is what it means to be made in the image and likeness of God. We are told that man alone is made this way.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

1ke,

But this may mean that man is unique among a subset of creation, not all of possible creation. It seems to me that that there could be another physical creature endowed with a spiritual soul possessing the faculties of intellect and will, which hasn’t been revealed to us and which we may not ever meet, in fact. I can understand a theological opinion that it is isn’t so, or that it is highly unlikely – but I’m not sure I’ve seen anything that says that it absolutely not the case.

Aquinas, for instance, points out that the creation of Angels is omitted from the Genesis account of creation, which points to the fact that revelation doesn’t necessarily reveal all of the created order to us, only that which is necessary to our salvation. He also mentions in Summa Contra Gentilies that Aristotle’s notion that heavenly bodies had an intellect and will wasn’t necessarily incompatible with the faith – or, more accurately, the question of what they were was irrelevant. He then mentions Augustine’s opinion that they were angels.

My concern is that while we may have good reasons to think that there is no other creature (or has been no other creature) with an intellect and will – I wouldn’t want to make a pronouncement of absolute impossibility if that is further than the Church goes. . . although I may be missing something the Church has said that foreclosed the possibility absolutely.

(Note: this isn’t a question about whether animals have spiritual souls – and the concomitant powers of intellect and will – since that is categorically impossible. )

Any thoughts?
VC

 

[chipeto]

1ke,

But this may mean that man is unique among a subset of creation, not all of possible creation. It seems to me that that there could be another physical creature endowed with a spiritual soul possessing the faculties of intellect and will, which hasn’t been revealed to us and which we may not ever meet, in fact. I can understand a theological opinion that it is isn’t so, or that it is highly unlikely – but I’m not sure I’ve seen anything that says that it absolutely not the case.

Aquinas, for instance, points out that the creation of Angels is omitted from the Genesis account of creation, which points to the fact that revelation doesn’t necessarily reveal all of the created order to us, only that which is necessary to our salvation. He also mentions in Summa Contra Gentilies that Aristotle’s notion that heavenly bodies had an intellect and will wasn’t necessarily incompatible with the faith – or, more accurately, the question of what they were was irrelevant. He then mentions Augustine’s opinion that they were angels.

My concern is that while we may have good reasons to think that there is no other creature (or has been no other creature) with an intellect and will – I wouldn’t want to make a pronouncement of absolute impossibility if that is further than the Church goes. . . although I may be missing something the Church has said that foreclosed the possibility absolutely.

(Note: this isn’t a question about whether animals have spiritual souls – and the concomitant powers of intellect and will – since that is categorically impossible. )

Any thoughts?
VC

Sure, C.S. Lewis’ Space Trilogy.