Animals, Intelligence, Intellect

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Faith1960

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I once read on another Catholic message board a very long, heated debate about animals not having an immortal soul. A couple people insisted that the Church teaches that only humans have an immortal soul and intellect comes from the immortal soul and no where else. They went on to say that various animals do not have an intellect and do not think, reason or have any ability to solve problems or make decisions, not even to a small degree since they do not possess an immortal soul. They kept citing the teachings and writings of St. Thomas (or maybe it was someone else).

I find this really hard to understand considering I have dogs and see their minds at work every day. There are other animals such as dolphins who communicate and at least one gorilla that is known to communicate through sign language.
My husband recently watched a documentary where researchers were testing elephants and their ability to predict earthquakes and just today, he told me about a dog trainer who has a degree in something, I think she has a degree in psychology, who says that dogs have a wide range of emotions (something I see for myself daily) and that their range of emotions come very close to humans.

Given all I’ve personally seen with my dogs and how they communicate with us and each other (in their own way), the way they remember things, solve basic problems during play and make simple decisions, I find it very hard to understand this supposed Church teaching if it is, indeed, a teaching of the Church. Can anyone help me here? :confused:
 
Faith1960 said:
I once read on another Catholic message board a very long, heated debate about animals not having an immortal soul. A couple people insisted that the Church teaches that only humans have an immortal soul and intellect comes from the immortal soul and no where else. They went on to say that various animals do not have an intellect and do not think, reason or have any ability to solve problems or make decisions, not even to a small degree since they do not possess an immortal soul. They kept citing the teachings and writings of St. Thomas (or maybe it was someone else).

I find this really hard to understand considering I have dogs and see their minds at work every day. There are other animals such as dolphins who communicate and at least one gorilla that is known to communicate through sign language.
My husband recently watched a documentary where researchers were testing elephants and their ability to predict earthquakes and just today, he told me about a dog trainer who has a degree in something, I think she has a degree in psychology, who says that dogs have a wide range of emotions (something I see for myself daily) and that their range of emotions come very close to humans.

Given all I’ve personally seen with my dogs and how they communicate with us and each other (in their own way), the way they remember things, solve basic problems during play and make simple decisions, I find it very hard to understand this supposed Church teaching if it is, indeed, a teaching of the Church. Can anyone help me here? :confused:
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I think most people would agree that many animals have intelligence (some more than others) and that they may have some emotions and can learn but I don’t believe they have an intellect. That would imply they could think and reason which they can’t.
You don’t require an intellect to be able to learn something.

I don’t see what a soul has to do with intellect. What about a mentally handicapped person who is unable to think or reason. They still have a precious soul nonetheless.

Yes it is correct that only humans have immortal souls. Animals and plants have souls which die when the plant or animal dies.
 
They lack a few things which our souls give us as Images of God:

One- They have a capacity to do limited problem solving for survival. God gave that to them so they wouldn’t just die if a human wasn’t taking care of them. Christ said “The birds do not worry about what they are wearing and yet the Father provides them everything they need.” (Just quoting from memory so that might not be right) But they can’t sit down and preform elaborate Calculus based Physics.

Two- Humans posess something called “simbiance” (I think that’s the term). That’s when you are aware of your existence as an object in the universe. Chances are, animals are not simbiant becasue God does not hold them responsible for their actions. (i.e. He won’t get angry at them for doing something against a moral code, The Ten Commandments, that He’s only holding humans to.)

Three- Animals, as far as we know, do not posess extreme abilities of foresight. It’s similar to the age of reason where one begins to know if something is right or wrong and what all the possible consequesces will be. Not simply “If I chew up my masters couch, he will be angry.”

We all need to remember though that God is not only revealed in humans, but every creation on the planet and they should all be respected because of that. In the end it dosen’t really matter if they have souls or not because that’s God’s decision not ours, and who are we to question Him?
 
Animals can indeed have emotions. But emotions are related to physicality and biochemistry, not to intellect as Catholic philosophy understands the term.

Animals can even communicate and solve some problems needed to survive in their environment. They may have awareness. But because their life-principle, their soul, is material, not immaterial, their awareness does not reach the state of becoming aware of their awareness.

Only humans, by virtue of having an immaterial life principle, can reach a state of self reflection, becoming not only aware, but conscious of themselves being aware.

Dolphins can communicate, but they don’t write books or participate in internet discussion boards. The same with the higher primates. I don’t think that any animals other than humans profess a religious faith or even assert atheism as a belief.
 
Read Ecclesiastes Chapter 3 verse 21.

Now I would never say that aninmals have souls like humans or that they’re in the image of God like humans.

On the other hand I would not state with CERTAINTY that they will not live again in heaven.

Angels do not have souls exactly like humans but they were given the chance to choose for or against God.

Also the only reason that animals had to face death was because of Man’s disobedience to God in the Garden of Evil.

Since they don’t have the ability to choose against God–they are perfectly doing the will of God even though they are oblivious to it.

To say whether or not they would go to heaven would be to ask if God were JUST–and we know He is–would it be His will for their lives to be FINITE because of man’s disobedience?

Now of course if God wants their lives to be finite that is fine because God can do as He wills and if He wants them to be FINITE then that is certainly JUST.

The other question regarding animals going to heaven would be WOULD a MERCIFUL God–and we know He is–want their lives to be FINITE?

I do not presume to know the mind of God about such matters.

I DO know that when God had created all His creation He said that it was GOOD.

I also know that Jesus speaks of “Mansions” in heaven–of “eating the bread and wine” again one day in heaven and of heaven’s streets being made of gold.

All these things may just be the only words that can describe something beyond our current experience so we can understand it but ask yourself–If God speaks of heaven in REAL terms–what are the chances that He would have created animals just to be in human history and never afterwards?

The Book of Revelation speaks of the New Jersualem. Could not that New Jersualem have animals in it?

The angels and animals are not the only things that are different from us. Melchizedek is a priest forever without mother or father.

He was the Prince of Salem and Abraham welcomed him. Surely he will be in the New Jeruslaem! He isn’t exactly mortal like us.

One day the lamb will lay down with the lion–the Bible says it!

Can you imagine what it would be like to hug a lion in heaven with no fear in heaven and see the lion smile at you?

Now these things may never happen and maybe each and every animal that has ever lived will not be in heaven–they may be finite–but I’ll continue to hope that God who made them and said they were good will one day let us enjoy them in His house–if not then the joys of His house are certainly the rights ones and must far exceed such human joys as love for animals.

The greatest thing about animals is seeing in them the creator who made them.

Did Jesus not say–“see the birds of the air how they do not toil or spin but their heavenly Father takes care of them”?

If God CARES enough to do that for the animals and if He cares enough to send His only Son to die for us–we have alot to look forward to in heaven.

Just remember who made those animals the next time you do something good for them. Be kind to animals and God will be kind to you!

For as the Samaritan woman told Jesus “Do not even the dogs eat the crumbs beneath the Master’s table”?

Those dogs don’t have souls like us–but Jesus did not object to them eating the crumbs. Maybe he won’t object to them being in heavern either–in any case may God’s perfect will–whatever that may be–may it be done!
 
<< Animals can indeed have emotions. But emotions are related to physicality and biochemistry, not to intellect as Catholic philosophy understands the term.

Animals can even communicate and solve some problems needed to survive in their environment. They may have awareness. But because their life-principle, their soul, is material, not immaterial, their awareness does not reach the state of becoming aware of their awareness.

Only humans, by virtue of having an immaterial life principle, can reach a state of self reflection, becoming not only aware, but conscious of themselves being aware.

Dolphins can communicate, but they don’t write books or participate in internet discussion boards. The same with the higher primates. I don’t think that any animals other than humans profess a religious faith or even assert atheism as a belief. >>

You’re entire post made so much sense, Jim, thanks.
 
<< Now I would never say that aninmals have souls like humans or that they’re in the image of God like humans.

On the other hand I would not state with CERTAINTY that they will not live again in heaven. >>

I honestly don’t know if animals will go to heaven when they die or not but I hope they do. If not, I think that when they die, hopefully a peaceful death, they are happy and content. I believe that God gave me my dogs for the love and companionship they give us, and we, them. When they leave us I hope they know how loved they were and are peaceful and happy. There are many people who insist that since animals don’t have an immortal soul they can’t go to heaven but since they aren’t aware of heaven or the presence of God, it wouldn’t matter to them anyway.
 
<< I honestly don’t know if animals will go to heaven when they die or not but I hope they do. If not, I think that when they die, hopefully a peaceful death, they are happy and content. I believe that God gave me my dogs for the love and companionship they give us, and we, them. When they leave us I hope they know how loved they were and are peaceful and happy. There are many people who insist that since animals don’t have an immortal soul they can’t go to heaven but since they aren’t aware of heaven or the presence of God, it wouldn’t matter to them anyway. >>

By the way, for those who might remember me, I used to post under the user name Faith1924 before the board got messed up a few weeks ago. I just changed the numbers after my name.:eek:
 
I honestly don’t know if animals will go to heaven when they die or not but I hope they do. If not, I think that when they die, hopefully a peaceful death, they are happy and content. I believe that God gave me my dogs for the love and companionship they give us, and we, them. When they leave us I hope they know how loved they were and are peaceful and happy. There are many people who insist that since animals don’t have an immortal soul they can’t go to heaven but since they aren’t aware of heaven or the presence of God, it wouldn’t matter to them anyway.
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Well, if their souls are material and not immortal, then their soul dies when their body dies. This would mean that they cease to be after death, not experiencing anything at all, not even blankness.

That being said, don’t forget that our final goal is more than just seeing God, though that will be the definition of what we call Heaven. There is also the Resurrection, which is dogmatically a bodily Resurrection, a material Resurrection (as our immaterial souls won’t need Resurrection). There is absolutely nothing preventing God from reanimating certain animals, or all animals that have ever existed, at the same time we are Resurrected. Since they don’t have seperate immaterial souls, the reassembly and reanimation of your dog Goldie would really and truly be your dog Goldie, and the dog would not be aware of any intervening seperation after death because the dog didn’t exist during that time.

That is only speculation, but it’s hardly impious speculation. There is no reason at all to believe that God would not reanimate at least our beloved pets after our Resurrection, as animals are part of the perfection of the world He created and called “very good” in Genesis. If the world is to be restored, why would such an integral aspect of it be left out?

God’s blessings be with you always!
 
I wonder. Anyone who has any pets can tell you that they do indeed have emotions. I’ve seen every human emotion in my two cats. My girl cat figured out on her own how to open the kitchen cabinets. Some mornings I get up and every cabinet is opened! She figured it out for herself without any teaching on my part. As far as animals not writing a book or anything like that, maybe so, but maybe because they don’t write a book because of their physique and not so much because of their mind. Dogs and cats know many human words, sit, come, wait and many more complex commands. How many of their words do we understand? At one time science said that animals were dumb beasts but now after careful study they found that some can indeed reason! A gorilla can talk using sign language. I wonder
 
ricko said:
I wonder. Anyone who has any pets can tell you that they do indeed have emotions. I’ve seen every human emotion in my two cats. My girl cat figured out on her own how to open the kitchen cabinets. Some mornings I get up and every cabinet is opened! She figured it out for herself without any teaching on my part. As far as animals not writing a book or anything like that, maybe so, but maybe because they don’t write a book because of their physique and not so much because of their mind. Dogs and cats know many human words, sit, come, wait and many more complex commands. How many of their words do we understand? At one time science said that animals were dumb beasts but now after careful study they found that some can indeed reason! A gorilla can talk using sign language. I wonder
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There is no evidence an animal can reason but as you are stating that as a fact please cite the source of your information.
By the way the gorilla learned sign langugae in the same way you can teach many animals tricks. Gorillas cannot reason.
 
I have come to understand and believe that, although they have the earthly appearance of horses, Mozart and CTF Last Tango are in fact my guardian angels.

They have taught me more about God, people and myself than any human I have come in contact with.

Yes, they do have immortal souls. Yes, I will meet them again in heaven.

emmitsburg.net/tumc/pastor_wade/2005/pets.htm

Go with Love, Go with God!
 
<< There is no evidence an animal can reason but as you are stating that as a fact please cite the source of your information.
By the way the gorilla learned sign langugae in the same way you can teach many animals tricks. Gorillas cannot reason. >>

Can you define reason, Thistle, so I can have a better understanding of what you mean? I have two dogs and they both behave in ways that show a degree of reasoning ability. Certainly, they don’t sit with me and contemplate the war in Iraq or the reasons why God put us here on this Earth but they do things like “negotiate” for something they want. If they want Treat A and I give them Treat B they’ll drop it and annoy me until they get Treat B or finally fall asleep. If I tell them to come in and they’ll get Treat B, one of them, the most stubborn of the two, will continue sitting or laying there, looking at me, refusing to get up if she wants Treat A instead of Treat B. If I tell her to come in and she’ll get Treat A, in she comes.
There have been other times when I’ve had to throw out an old toy, treat or a ball had gotten far under the furniture or behind something and these girls just wouldn’t forget. They’d bug the heck out of me for days, nudging me, sometimes whining, tail wagging, going back and forth to where I threw it away or where the toy or ball was.

One of the two used to wait until we’d leave so she could sneak into our daughter’s room, looking for Halloween candy when our daughter was little. She’d deliberately wait until I took our daughter to school then waltz in there, find the hidden candy, unwrap it, eat it, come out and sit there, waiting for me and looking guilty when I came back home. I could always tell when she’d been up to no good because she always looked guilty and only after seeing her slinking around or with that look on her face would I go to find out what she did.
To me, those behaviors involve some level of reasoning.
 
<< By the way the gorilla learned sign langugae in the same way you can teach many animals tricks. Gorillas cannot reason. >.

Those who work with the gorilla, Koko, say she has a vocabulary of approximately 2000 words and initiates conversations herself. She has also invented signs for words on her own.

koko.org/world/

Another amazing thing about Koko is that her trainers say that she communicated that she wanted a cat and chose a Manx. She cared for the kitten as if it was her own baby and the Manx, named “All Ball” by Koko was later run over by a car. Koko’s handlers said that she was devastated and cried for two days.
It seems to me that there’s some reasoning ability going on there or maybe I’m misunderstanding something.
 
<< If they want Treat A and I give them Treat B they’ll drop it and annoy me until they get Treat B or finally fall asleep. >>

Sorry, I meant they’ll drop it and annoy me until they get Treat A.
 
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