Animals, love or instinct?

[Caesar517]

I do not support the Buddhist view of Love/Hate, Good/Evil being equal opposites. Evil is a parasitic force that can’t exist without Good, but Good can exist without Evil.

If apathy is the opposite of love, what is the opposite of hate? Is that apathy too? Can something have two opposites? Wouldn’t the opposite of apathy be enthusiasm?

Is this continuum innacurate?

[hate]----------------------------[apathy]----------------------------[love]
(far end)…(not leaning either way)…(far end)

 

[lovesMary]

I do not support the Buddhist view of Love/Hate, Good/Evil being equal opposites. Evil is a parasitic force that can’t exist without Good, but Good can exist without Evil.

If apathy is the opposite of love, what is the opposite of hate? Is that apathy too? Can something have two opposites? Wouldn’t the opposite of apathy be enthusiasm?

Is this continuum innacurate?

[hate]----------------------------[apathy]----------------------------[love]
(far end)…(not leaning either way)…(far end)

Interesting post. It’s an interesting discussion as well. Perhaps not everything has an actual opposite.

 

[Caesar517]

Interesting post. It’s an interesting discussion as well. Perhaps not everything has an actual opposite.

It is an interesting discussion indeed! I haven’t taken a particular point of view yet, I’m just trying to advance the discussion. I would love to see where this goes.

 

[SirOscar]

Evil is a parasitic force that can’t exist without Good, but Good can exist without Evil.

I was in a group discussion about the origins of evil.

Yes, Goodness always existed. Evil is a result of the absence of Goodness.

Satan (formally an angel created in Goodness, according to Christian belief), is evil because he is no longer united to God (Goodness)

Way off the thread, but thats okay.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Do animals alway love their young? We had a feral cat one time who it was said pushed away her kitten and it died. Animals can exhibit what appears to be loving behavior, but they also have behavior at times that can be quite puzzling. We once adopted out a kitten at 8 weeks and agreed to bring the kitten to the vet for its spay when it was 16 weeks old. When we got the kitten for the spay, I brought it to her mother, and the mother did not want to have anything to do with her, she was hissing and growling. I was kind of amazed that within a few weeks, the mother can forget her young.

 

[SirOscar]

[Do animals alway love their young? We had a feral cat one time who it was said pushed away her kitten and it died/QUOTE]

Are humans always capable of loving their young? What about the teenage girl who dumps her newborn in the garbage?

 

[Catholic90]

Animals don’t love in the same sense humans love because they don’t have souls made in the image of God. But they seek and find pleasure and contentment, they have fears and flee pain and death. These are built into their instinct. I have watched my cats interact with each other, playing and teasing each other. They are obviously experiencing a type of enjoyment. Absolutely! One of my great pleasures is watching my cats and dog tease each other and obviously have fun with each other.

But we can’t say they have “self-awareness” the way a human has self-awareness. They have no real sense of self worth or self disdain. You are not familiar with cats, are you? Cats can CERTAINLY portray disdain, particularly when their food is not delivered in a timely manner or is the ‘wrong’ flavor. Conversly, they can also tell you in no uncertain terms of their self worth! Therefore they cannot “suffer” the way a human suffers. They feel pain, but they don’t mentally agonize over their lot, in the sense that they feel sorrow or guilt or shame or the desire to offer up their sufferings. I would disagree with this. We have a big dog. Big dog is not allowed on the couch. He has been taught this from when he was a little puppy. He never tries to go on the couch when we are home. Sometimes when we leave, we will come home to find Big Dog hanging in a corner away from us. We call him to us, and he comes, but something is not quite right. Then, we feel the couch. It is warm. Big Dog immediately goes upstairs or somewhere else to hide. Big Dog feels shame and guilt, I am convinced of it! I also believe animals feel sorrow. When we lost our black lab 18 months ago, our cats would walk around the house yowling, which they had never done, and no longer do. I firmly believe they were feeling a sense of loss of the dog and were mourning his loss. Thus their pain has no merit.

That said, animals do have souls, though not immortal souls. They do not go to heaven when they die. However, there is nothing that says that after the final resurrection there will not be animals inhabiting the new earth. Jesus says, behold I make all things new. And even the prophets speak of the lion laying down with the lamb in the new creation. Some see this as poetic or metaphorical. I choose to take it literally.

Ok. I’m an animal lover. While the Bible teaches us that man is the crown of creation, it also teaches that animals have their place in the Divine Plan (and God saw that they were GOOD). Since they were created before man I believe they have a purpose apart from man. Their purpose is the same as all of creation, that is, to glorify their Creator by their very existence.

They do it so well. Yes, they do!

• Westy

 

[Ohwesty]

You are not familiar with cats, are you? Cats can CERTAINLY portray disdain, particularly when their food is not delivered in a timely manner or is the ‘wrong’ flavor. Conversly, they can also tell you in no uncertain terms of their self worth!

LOL My nickname is the Cat Woman (not to be confused with Eartha Kitt). I’ve had cats all my life. I have three at the present moment. I am very familiar with their behavior.

Animals have no self-loathing or self-love the way humans do. They can learn to trust when they are handled well. They can learn to distrust when they are not handled well. They know what to do to receive affection and they can also give affection. That’s not the same as human love.

As for the dog feeling “guilt” about jumping on the couch, I don’t think so, not really. While an animal is aware that it has done something that displeases its master, it has no awareness of WHY it is wrong. They hide and “act different” because they have learned through experience that jumping on the couch might result in a scolding or punishment. They fear the punishment, but that’s all. They can never experience repentence.

While animals feel distress and even have their own grieving rituals, they do not suffer internally as humans do. Man has self-awareness and God-awareness, is conscience of his soul and the effects of sin and his need for redemption. But a dog cannot contemplate WHY he is suffering, has no concept of the Divine Plan or his purpose for existence. He only knows that he hurts and he wants the hurt to stop.

We humans project our own emotions and characteristics onto animals. It’s understandable, I do the same. I love my cats, but they are not equal to humans. I think St. Thomas Aquinas’ “Levels of Being” demonstates it best:

Levels of Being

Inanimate Matter = MATTER

Plants = Matter + LIFE

Animals = Matter + Life + CONSCIOUSNESS

Man = Matter + Life + Consciousness + SELF AWARENESS

 

[PoliSciProf]

I think St. Thomas Aquinas’ “Levels of Being” demonstates it best:

Levels of Being

Inanimate Matter = MATTER

Plants = Matter + LIFE

Animals = Matter + Life + CONSCIOUSNESS

Man = Matter + Life + Consciousness + SELF AWARENESS

There is a big problem here. Apes, Dolphins, Elephants and probably other species have been shown empirically to have self-awareness. I think the dividing line between animals and man is speech (logos). If the whales “singing” as they swim are “singing’” about the question WHY? or are communicating about God or the gods, then we must put them on the same plane as Man. Another poster on this thread referred to “God Awareness.” That is another way of putting my point. Many species also have a sense of empathy and even altruism.

 

[Catholic90]

Animals have no self-loathing or self-love the way humans do. They can learn to trust when they are handled well. They can learn to distrust when they are not handled well. They know what to do to receive affection and they can also give affection. That’s not the same as human love.

As for the dog feeling “guilt” about jumping on the couch, I don’t think so, not really. While an animal is aware that it has done something that displeases its master, it has no awareness of WHY it is wrong. Oh, I don’t know. I think my dog knows WHY it was wrong. He won’t do it when I am home, but will do it when I am gone. He knows he is not to go there. They hide and “act different” because they have learned through experience that jumping on the couch might result in a scolding or punishment. They fear the punishment, but that’s all. They can never experience repentence. Mmmmm, maybe. He can look awfully “sorry” with his eyes, downcast head, and cute behaviors afterword that we just can’t resist petting him. He never gets punished for sleeping on the couch, because we never catch him ‘in the act’.

While animals feel distress and even have their own grieving rituals, they do not suffer internally as humans do. How do we know? We don’t. Man has self-awareness and God-awareness, is conscience of his soul and the effects of sin and his need for redemption. But a dog cannot contemplate WHY he is suffering, has no concept of the Divine Plan or his purpose for existence. He only knows that he hurts and he wants the hurt to stop. Of course he wants the hurt to stop. Don’t we as humans want hurt to stop, too?

We humans project our own emotions and characteristics onto animals. It’s understandable, I do the same. I love my cats, but they are not equal to humans. Agreed. Some animals are better than some humans!

 

[Catholic90]

There is a big problem here. Apes, Dolphins, Elephants and probably other species have been shown empirically to have self-awareness. I think the dividing line between animals and man is speech (logos). If the whales “singing” as they swim are “singing’” about the question WHY? or are communicating about God or the gods, then we must put them on the same plane as Man. Another poster on this thread referred to “God Awareness.” That is another way of putting my point. Many species also have a sense of empathy and even altruism.

Agreed. How many stories are there of animals rescuing people from floods, fire, accidents, etc. One would think an animal would first seek to preserve itself, but there are many stories of animals even sacrificing themselves to save or rescue humans (and I am not just talking about trained rescue dogs - these are just regular family pets that did that).

 

[ricko]

The mother cat probably rejected the kitten because it had been to the vet and it picked up the smell of the office and medicine. She could no longer identify her kitten by smell.
On Animal Planet a lion was attacking a young deer near the water. A hippo had been watching the whole event. It was horrific to watch and I believe the hippo felt the same cause it came out of the water and attacked the lion and drove it off. It then went to the deer and nudged it and even picked it up gently in its mouth and nudged it some more but alas, the young deer was dead. If you don’t believe animals have feelings just like humans watch Animal Planet and I believe you will change your mind. Also don’t forget that science has done a 180 on lots of things concerning animals. They also used to think that an infant could not feel pain!

 

[tobbias88]

*They don’t have eternal souls like we do.:angel1:/*QUOTE]

I’ve always heard that & wondered.
Heaven will really be a boring place if there are no animals…or birds…or fishes…or flowers…or anything else in Creation. Surely all Creation was redeemed by the death of Jesus? I thought there was to be a New Heaven & Earth…but all empty except for people???

 

[strngrnrth]

*They don’t have eternal souls like we do.:angel1:/*QUOTE]

I’ve always heard that & wondered.
Heaven will really be a boring place if there are no animals…or birds…or fishes…or flowers…or anything else in Creation. Surely all Creation was redeemed by the death of Jesus? I thought there was to be a New Heaven & Earth…but all empty except for people???

If the lion rests with the lamb, then aren’t animals going to be there? And I know we who love animals won’t be truly content until we know the animals we love here – the same ones, rather than all-new ones – are happy. God could bring them back just to make them happy. At least for a while. Especially the ones who had a hard life here.