Anime & Video Games with "Fanservice" - question

[minion]

I took part in similar topics before, but wanted to make a more specific topic. I was wondering what your guys takes are concerning anime & video game content with varying degrees of fanservice. To those unfamiliar with the term, it’s typically sexual eye-candy…bathing scenes, gratuitous shots, revealing costumes, that type of stuff.

There are different degrees, and some anime artists produce tamer works, along with more risque works as well. To be quite honest, I would be hard-pressed to think of any anime I watched that didn’t feature it.

And though I mention specifically anime & video games, keep in mind it’s commonplace movies as well (ex. Michael Bays Transformers live action movies), or in card games like Magic the Gathering.

1. Are you okay with watching/playing heavy fanservice anime/games?
2. Would you be willing to sell media with such content?
3. Would you find it morally permissible to work for a company producing said fanservice content?

 

[Elizium23]

I have seen little to none of this in Magic: The Gathering. Could you give an example of some cards? Something like Grand Abolisher, does that count?

 

[minion]

I have seen little to none of this in Magic: The Gathering. Could you give an example of some cards? Something like Grand Abolisher, does that count?

Archangel of Strife
http://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/694326-bigthumbnail.jpg

Eternal Witness


Liliana of the Veil


Could put more if I really put my mind to it. I’ve read way too many pervy comments on Gatherer.

 

[Kamaduck]

Archangel of strife is in a boobs and butt pose! She also has metal boobsocks. That can’t be good for battle.

There’s a website that categorizes the ways female warriors and superheroes are illustrated. I visit it sometimes, lots of talk of objectification, why people draw women certain ways, and why it hurts story/characterization. It’s called eschergirls- really interesting stuff, but I’m not sure I should link to it, since they have all the pictures there and some are quite a bit worse than what you posted (no porn, though, as the point is it getting in the way of regular stories). You can google it yourself if you’re interested, OP. Before going there, I doubt I would have seen much wrong with the Archangel of strife picture you posted, other than the bare thighs. Now I know it’s pretty absurd for other reasons.

Since you didn’t put that this was guys-only (unless I missed that), I’ll come at it from the perspective of a girl.

I took part in similar topics before, but wanted to make a more specific topic. I was wondering what your guys takes are concerning anime & video game content with varying degrees of fanservice. To those unfamiliar with the term, it’s typically sexual eye-candy…bathing scenes, gratuitous shots, revealing costumes, that type of stuff.

There are different degrees, and some anime artists produce tamer works, along with more risque works as well. To be quite honest, I would be hard-pressed to think of any anime I watched that didn’t feature it.

And though I mention specifically anime & video games, keep in mind it’s commonplace movies as well (ex. Michael Bays Transformers live action movies), or in card games like Magic the Gathering.

1. Are you okay with watching/playing heavy fanservice anime/games?
2. Would you be willing to sell media with such content?
3. Would you find it morally permissible to work for a company producing said fanservice content?

1. Since most fanservice is male-oriented, I will tolerate it until it gets in the way of story/characterization (and as long as it doesn’t strip female characters of agency and usefulness). I know female-oriented fanservice exists, but I’ve never had a problem with it before. It’s usually much more tasteful anyway.
2. Sure, as long as it met the conditions for something I would be comfortable watching.
3. Hm. Yes, but I wouldn’t be willing to create any of it myself. I would always try to treat my characters with respect and dignity. They might not always be covered, but they’d wear bikinis or weird fantasy armor to communicate things about themselves, NOT for the sake of any male (or female, I guess) fans. That should be the artist’s priority, IMO. My main problem with fanservice isn’t that it may pose an immediate temptation to guys (although it may, and that is a problem)- it’s that it trains guys to think of women as decorations first, characters/warriors/people second. If you’ve been trained to see women as objects that should conform to your whims, you’ll then see them like that regardless of what they’re wearing.

So, in summation, I’m good with it as long as it’s not gratuitous and doesn’t disrespect the female characters in question. To use your card game examples: the Eternal Witness looks fine in that department, though she could maybe use a bit more room for organs. Her clothing looks ragged and is made out of leaves, showing me that she probably lives by herself, outside of whatever fantasy communities the game has. The artist for the Archangel of Strife, however, has clearly sacrificed storytelling for sex appeal. Elements of the picture tell me that this is supposed to be a fearsome warrior capable of defending her community, but her impractical armor and ridiculous pose say otherwise. That’s the problem for me- not that her thighs are bare and her butt is showing, but that she’s showing them to the viewer, breaking immersion and giving the viewer one more example of a female character that exists mostly as a decoration.

 

[Kamaduck]

To be quite honest, I would be hard-pressed to think of any anime I watched that didn’t feature it.

I don’t know if you’ve seen any of these, but Kino’s Journey, Haibane Renmei, and most of the Miyazaki movies don’t have anything you could call fanservice. They’re all good, thought-provoking shows that feature interesting female characters. There are also other shows that may objectively feature girls wearing less clothing than usual, but without the intent to appeal to male viewers. Princess Tutu and Sailor Moon come to mind. I suppose I would have a hard time coming up with a counter-example that was aimed squarely at men, though. Maybe Planetes, though I’m not 100% sure that there’s no fanservice. Definitely nothing blatant.

 

[Tenofovir]

1. Are you okay with watching/playing heavy fanservice anime/games?

This is a question of relatives. For one person a girl in a bikini is fanservice. For another a panty shot is not fanservice because he does not get excited by it. It depends on the beholder. If the beholder watches anime/games for the sexual content and this leads him to do sinful/immoral things in terms of thought or deed, it’s a bad thing. If he watches it for the story and the situation which follows I don’t think it’s a problem, any more than any depiction of a female (male) in art or anywhere else is fanservice. And yeah having a handsome person in a chaste and fully clothed way could also be fanservice. Does it make you think of lewd things/acts you’d like to do with that person or someone else? Well it then can become problematic from a pure Catholic approach.

1. Would you be willing to sell media with such content?

Again it depends. I would try to avoid it myself. To show such a situation I may show the skirt being lifted by the wind but the audience would not see the skin fitting underwear underneath. I would try to stay clear of such. (In real life situations I turn away whenever a skirt is lifted or divert my eyes.)

1. Would you find it morally permissible to work for a company producing said fanservice content?

Good question. It depends on what the fanservice was. If they’re producing porn or pseudo-porn it would not be a good thing. Of course if your division was not producing such, such may not apply.

At the end of the day, we do see a lot of nude art produced in the past. Such art is not considered sinful or evil. If tasteful nudity is shown in an artistic way I would not call it fan-service. After all the human body is beautiful. Of course if someone is turned on by old nude paintings of these incredibly obese ladies lying around naked in forests - then I guess that becomes fan service/porn for them.

The question goes back to the beholder. Does the fan service lead you to something sinful or immoral? Or does it not. Of course some people may be more or less cautious.

Is the Puritanical approach to everything correct? Should women cover up their ankles in fear some sexually frustrated man’s head (especially someone with an ankle fetish) is filling with sinful thoughts? On the other hand a too liberal approach may lead to a slippery slope. "It’s just a bra. It’s just a breast from the profile. It’s just a breast but there’s no nipple. It’s just a crotch region without any sexual allusion or physical details. Oh it’s just mild sexual allusion. Oh it’s just touching but it’s not sex. It’s just sex but they really love each other and they’ll probably get married soon. Oh it’s just erotic sex, etc…

 

[Tenofovir]

I don’t know if you’ve seen any of these, but Kino’s Journey, Haibane Renmei, and most of the Miyazaki movies don’t have anything you could call fanservice. They’re all good, thought-provoking shows that feature interesting female characters. There are also other shows that may objectively feature girls wearing less clothing than usual, but without the intent to appeal to male viewers. Princess Tutu and Sailor Moon come to mind. I suppose I would have a hard time coming up with a counter-example that was aimed squarely at men, though. Maybe Planetes, though I’m not 100% sure that there’s no fanservice. Definitely nothing blatant.

Bishojo Senshi Sailor Moon wear very short mini skirts. Someone who has such a hang up may experience that as fanservice. Then there is something like Noucome where there are several panty shots in the series. For who does not consider that sexually provocative it would not be fanservice. The opening animation of that series has a lot of hand stands of mostly girls in short skirts but there are no panty shots in it. If someone considers that sexually arousing well they maybe should not watch it or try to not see a girl in a skirt as a sex object.

 

[minion]

Some companies are intentionally creating content meant to be fanservice, not merely something construed as relative to the viewer, like someone wearing a skimpy dress while dancing Tango.

Archangel of strife is in a boobs and butt pose! She also has metal boobsocks. That can’t be good for battle.

There’s a website that categorizes the ways female warriors and superheroes are illustrated. I visit it sometimes, lots of talk of objectification, why people draw women certain ways, and why it hurts story/characterization. It’s called eschergirls- really interesting stuff, but I’m not sure I should link to it, since they have all the pictures there and some are quite a bit worse than what you posted (no porn, though, as the point is it getting in the way of regular stories). You can google it yourself if you’re interested, OP. Before going there, I doubt I would have seen much wrong with the Archangel of strife picture you posted, other than the bare thighs. Now I know it’s pretty absurd for other reasons.

Since you didn’t put that this was guys-only (unless I missed that), I’ll come at it from the perspective of a girl.

Didn’t realize there was a name for the pose…people come up with names for everything Thanks, I will check out the site. And a female perspective is welcome

1. Since most fanservice is male-oriented, I will tolerate it until it gets in the way of story/characterization (and as long as it doesn’t strip female characters of agency and usefulness). I know female-oriented fanservice exists, but I’ve never had a problem with it before. It’s usually much more tasteful anyway.

Well, many video games do not the feature the story as the main focal point, rather it’s the gameplay. So if the story is minimal, does that mean more fanservice is okay since there’s no story for the fanservice to get in the way of it? So, would you deem it okay for yourself and others to purchase games such as:

Dragon’s Crown (witch character)

Senran Kagura Burst (clothes rip as characters take damage, and creator admits he wanted to make this type of game)

I was planning to buy Dragon’s Crown because the company Vanillaware made two great games before it (Odin Sphere, Muramasa), but after the media storm about it & female objectification, I had reservations. Perhaps I’m being too scrupulous?

1. Sure, as long as it met the conditions for something I would be comfortable watching.

So, what if there was a game that was fanservice-y, but you knew the artist cheiefly created artwork on the side that was pornographic. Example:

Shining Wind/Shining Tears
Would you be okay selling that particular game? What would you think less of others selling that game?

1. Hm. Yes, but I wouldn’t be willing to create any of it myself. I would always try to treat my characters with respect and dignity. They might not always be covered, but they’d wear bikinis or weird fantasy armor to communicate things about themselves, NOT for the sake of any male (or female, I guess) fans. That should be the artist’s priority, IMO. My main problem with fanservice isn’t that it may pose an immediate temptation to guys (although it may, and that is a problem)- it’s that it trains guys to think of women as decorations first, characters/warriors/people second. If you’ve been trained to see women as objects that should conform to your whims, you’ll then see them like that regardless of what they’re wearing.

So, if your livelyhood was working as an illustrator, and you were specifically asked by the company to create fanservice content, would you accept or decline? At the cost of putting food on your table? I’m a bit uncertain about this, so your thoughts are appreciated

Thank you for answering!

 

[Tenofovir]

I see from Tenofovir’s & Elizium’s posts I’m going to have to post some pictures more explicit & poignant,…

Just don’t post too much explicit stuff.

I’d say 8tnu0100001s525k.jpg is still OK. The girl has her knees close together. The other pics could do with a little less exposure.

The fighting stripping clothes game genre is tasteless IMO. It’s soft pseudo porn.

Dude, design a game like idolm@ster.
youtube.com/watch?v=IXFwKU5Xheo

No fan service. No lewdness. Lyrics are also clean (if you can understand them or download translations).

Note that a Japanese porn parody company tried to make a porno of idolmaster. They were stopped somehow by Namco Bandai.

 

[Kamaduck]

Well, many video games do not the feature the story as the main focal point, rather it’s the gameplay. So if the story is minimal, does that mean more fanservice is okay since there’s no story for the fanservice to get in the way of it? So, would you deem it okay for yourself and others to purchase games such as:

Dragon’s Crown (witch character)

I’ve heard about the dragon’s crown stuff. It doesn’t seem like the kind of game I would play, but yes, I would say the fanservice is unacceptable. I might be able to look past it if the game were otherwise a masterpiece… But it pretty obviously isn’t. Most fanservice-heavy things aren’t. Most of them attempt to use sex appeal to distract from bad-to-mediocre writing and other serious shortcomings.

Even if the characters of Dragon’s Crown aren’t meant to be well-developed characters, the design should still tell me something about them. The witch’s character design doesn’t tell me anything about her as a character or a spellcaster. How does she fight? What kind of unit is she? What is her personality, if she has one? I couldn’t tell you. The crazy proportions and pose obscure anything else that the picture might be able to tell me. She’s a decoration first and a spellcaster second, and I don’t think that’s OK.

Senran Kagura Burst (clothes rip as characters take damage, and creator admits he wanted to make this type of game)

If that’s all that the game is for, then I have no reason to play it anyway. Definitely unacceptable, as it’s fanservice for the sake of fanservice with nothing else to back it up.

I was planning to buy Dragon’s Crown because the company Vanillaware made two great games before it (Odin Sphere, Muramasa), but after the media storm about it & female objectification, I had reservations. Perhaps I’m being too scrupulous?

Well, here’s where I’m out of my depth. I don’t know that much about what the company has made before now. If it was a really good game (and assuming temptation wasn’t an issue), I would play it anyway, even if I thought the amount of fanservice was definitely wrong. I had to make that decision with Fire Emblem: Awakening. The female character designs are mild compared to the Dragon’s Crown art, but it’s definitely more noticeable than in previous games. However, the game also has marriage and support options like older titles did, and that was important to me. I bought the game and was not in the least disappointed, either by the gameplay, the story, or the female characters. Parts of it annoyed me, but I tolerated those because there was so much to love about the game.

I take fanservice into consideration (it’s always a negative thing for me, if it’s blatant), but I don’t let it be the deciding factor unless it’s clearly going to outweigh the good bits of the game. If Dragon’s Crown truly is an excellent game that happens to have this one drawback, I would play it. But if the in-game fanservice is blatant enough to distract from the good parts, I’d end up not enjoying myself anyway. If female characters aren’t respected, and there’s nothing else to outweigh that, it wouldn’t be worth it at all to me.

So, what if there was a game that was fanservice-y, but you knew the artist cheiefly created artwork on the side that was pornographic.

Would you be okay selling that particular game? What would you think less of others selling that game?

If the game itself was acceptable… Huh. OK, actually, that’s tricky. I wouldn’t think less of someone else, but I don’t think I’d sell it myself. I can’t really give you a reason why, just wouldn’t be comfortable supporting that.

So, if your livelyhood was working as an illustrator, and you were specifically asked by the company to create fanservice content, would you accept or decline? At the cost of putting food on your table? I’m a bit uncertain about this, so your thoughts are appreciated

Thank you for answering!

It would be important to me to work for a company that valued storytelling, characterization, and good art. I wouldn’t necessarily decline if asked to draw a character wearing skimpy clothes, or even a character that was specifically designed to be appealing. But if asked to draw her in such a way that the sex appeal got in the way of things like anatomy, what the character is doing, what is going on in the story, who she is as a person- if I was asked to sacrifice any of that for the purpose of appealing to male viewers, I would decline. I don’t want to contribute to that problem. Making a character attractive, when done, should always be secondary to who the character is as a person.

 

[Kamaduck]

Bishojo Senshi Sailor Moon wear very short mini skirts. Someone who has such a hang up may experience that as fanservice. Then there is something like Noucome where there are several panty shots in the series. For who does not consider that sexually provocative it would not be fanservice. The opening animation of that series has a lot of hand stands of mostly girls in short skirts but there are no panty shots in it. If someone considers that sexually arousing well they maybe should not watch it or try to not see a girl in a skirt as a sex object.

I was just trying to come up with counter-examples to the idea that all anime has fanservice, but let’s go with this. As far as I’m aware, Sailor Moon is aimed at girls and has a weird, often creepy older male segment of the fanbase. If the show really is aimed solely at girls (I’m not 100% sure on that, Japan has surprised me before), then I wouldn’t consider the short skirts, etc. to be fanservice, even if someone outside the target demographic was tempted by them. That wouldn’t be the reason why they were in the show.

We’ve got two issues here. One is whether a given person is tempted by something, which would make a difference in what they could morally watch/play. The other is what the creator was going for, why they put something in their work, and what they could reasonably expect the result to be.

Lusting after fictional characters is wrong, regardless of whether the creators had sex appeal in mind when creating the character. Simple enough on that end, though the temptations are different for every person.

Creating fictional characters with the sole or primary goal of sex appeal, or parading scantily-clad characters around in ways that don’t serve the story or characterization, is also wrong. That’s what I would say true “fanservice” is. It’s sex appeal for the sake of sex appeal, usually at the expense of storytelling, characterization, and everything else that the work has to offer. It’s wrong to treat characters as decorations instead of characters, and it’s even worse to reduce them to sex objects.

However, I would argue that the same is not true of all scantily-clad characters. There are legitimate reasons to have characters that wear little clothing. Things like camera angles and presentation can also make a bit difference- angling up a character’s skirt or down a character’s shirt is verrry different than just having a character in a short skirt on a show. As I said above, the Eternal Witness card’s art, from the viewing angle to the clothing and pose, tells me something about the character.

By contrast, the weird armor and pose on the Angel of Strife card gets in the way of me learning about her character. The Dragon’s Crown Witch is even worse. The low camera angles from some of the other pictures take fairly normal outfits and manage communicate something about the character’s purpose within the work (being objectified) by altering how the viewer sees them. All of that is what I would consider unacceptable on the creator’s end, but I can’t say that any of it definitely makes it wrong for viewers to enjoy the work for other reasons.

I’m OK with stuff that happens to get people’s attention, but I don’t think that should be the reason for it. Going back to Sailor Moon- I admit I don’t really know that much about the series. If the short skirts connote youth or something, then I think that’s OK on the creator’s end. It still means that people who are tempted by it shouldn’t watch it, but I wouldn’t say that’s the fault of the creators if it was unintentional.

I don’t know how much of that was actually related to your comment and how much is reiterating stuff I already said. Sorry. I was on a roll.

 

[Tenofovir]

I was just trying to come up with counter-examples to the idea that all anime has fanservice, but let’s go with this. As far as I’m aware, Sailor Moon is aimed at girls and has a weird, often creepy older male segment of the fanbase. If the show really is aimed solely at girls (I’m not 100% sure on that, Japan has surprised me before), then I wouldn’t consider the short skirts, etc. to be fanservice, even if someone outside the target demographic was tempted by them. That wouldn’t be the reason why they were in the show.

We’ve got two issues here. One is whether a given person is tempted by something, which would make a difference in what they could morally watch/play. The other is what the creator was going for, why they put something in their work, and what they could reasonably expect the result to be.

Lusting after fictional characters is wrong, regardless of whether the creators had sex appeal in mind when creating the character. Simple enough on that end, though the temptations are different for every person.

Creating fictional characters with the sole or primary goal of sex appeal, or parading scantily-clad characters around in ways that don’t serve the story or characterization, is also wrong. That’s what I would say true “fanservice” is. It’s sex appeal for the sake of sex appeal, usually at the expense of storytelling, characterization, and everything else that the work has to offer. It’s wrong to treat characters as decorations instead of characters, and it’s even worse to reduce them to sex objects.

However, I would argue that the same is not true of all scantily-clad characters. There are legitimate reasons to have characters that wear little clothing. Things like camera angles and presentation can also make a bit difference- angling up a character’s skirt or down a character’s shirt is verrry different than just having a character in a short skirt on a show. As I said above, the Eternal Witness card’s art, from the viewing angle to the clothing and pose, tells me something about the character.

By contrast, the weird armor and pose on the Angel of Strife card gets in the way of me learning about her character. The Dragon’s Crown Witch is even worse. The low camera angles from some of the other pictures take fairly normal outfits and manage communicate something about the character’s purpose within the work (being objectified) by altering how the viewer sees them. All of that is what I would consider unacceptable on the creator’s end, but I can’t say that any of it definitely makes it wrong for viewers to enjoy the work for other reasons.

I’m OK with stuff that happens to get people’s attention, but I don’t think that should be the reason for it. Going back to Sailor Moon- I admit I don’t really know that much about the series. If the short skirts connote youth or something, then I think that’s OK on the creator’s end. It still means that people who are tempted by it shouldn’t watch it, but I wouldn’t say that’s the fault of the creators if it was unintentional.

I don’t know how much of that was actually related to your comment and how much is reiterating stuff I already said. Sorry. I was on a roll.

You’ve made some good points. And I think you’re tackling it from the OP’s POV. He wants to be on the production side. And yes, how he presents things is key. Still he could be mistaken. For example, why should there ever be a need to portray these women in such revealing outfits? Should they not be wearing thick armour which may mask their curves and so on? And if you say that the character fights in a very hot place, why is the story contrived so to have these women fight in warm places where necessity dictates that they do so in steel bikinis (and even more revealing outfits)? So it’s an issue the game/anime designer has to deal with. And often money and popular tropes will sway them to include some mild fan service: *Yes there are pretty - even attractive women in this game/show. Their swords weigh more than their body weight but by golly they do have nice curves and so on. *

I guess knowing your target audience is also important. If your work is going to be used as a porn substitute even though you have a rich story about almost naked (hot and humid climate) Amazons fighting intrigue and evil lizard men to discover the secret of the lost city of gold and at the same time battle the dark side of their souls; you may be acting immorally. If you’re marketing to teens - this is the wrong approach. I guess if you’re marketing to women and disinterested men, it’s OK.

 

[Kamaduck]

You’ve made some good points. And I think you’re tackling it from the OP’s POV. He wants to be on the production side. And yes, how he presents things is key. Still he could be mistaken. For example, why should there ever be a need to portray these women in such revealing outfits? Should they not be wearing thick armour which may mask their curves and so on? And if you say that the character fights in a very hot place, why is the story contrived so to have these women fight in warm places where necessity dictates that they do so in steel bikinis (and even more revealing outfits)? So it’s an issue the game/anime designer has to deal with. And often money and popular tropes will sway them to include some mild fan service: *Yes there are pretty - even attractive women in this game/show. Their swords weigh more than their body weight but by golly they do have nice curves and so on. *

I guess knowing your target audience is also important. If your work is going to be used as a porn substitute even though you have a rich story about almost naked (hot and humid climate) Amazons fighting intrigue and evil lizard men to discover the secret of the lost city of gold and at the same time battle the dark side of their souls; you may be acting immorally. If you’re marketing to teens - this is the wrong approach. I guess if you’re marketing to women and disinterested men, it’s OK.

Hmm. It depends on the outfits, and a lot depends on the presentation. I’d say you should always ask why you’re doing something- even a warrior in a hot climate needs practical armor. Some leather and thin cloth would make a ton more sense than a chainmail bikini. You’d probably want looser clothing that breathed, rather than something skintight. The result would be a far cry from a knight in full plate armor, but it could still be plenty practical without treading anywhere near chainmail bikini territory.

Maybe you’ve got a female character who’s stranded on a deserted island, and she’s kind of stopped caring about how she looks. Maybe her clothes are ragged in places, but it needs to look realistic rather than strategic. Everything should make sense with the situation. And maybe there’s another girl for whom modesty is important even when nobody’s looking, who keeps her clothes in good repair and bothers the other one about looking ragged. That’s a character dynamic. That tells you something about them.

I could even excuse nudity if it actually served the story. I wouldn’t mind it if human clones escaped from laboratories naked, provided the camera angles, shadows, etc. concealed what the character wasn’t concerned with. It’s not like the mad scientists are going to grow clones pre-clothed. There are definitely stories where such a scene would be inappropriate, but I’m not going to say it’s never appropriate, if it serves the story and characters.

I have to admit, though, I hardly ever see anything like that. It would be awesome if I did, but 99% of the time, people just use those scenarios as excuses for objectification, especially when the target audience is male. While such can be done well, too many creators can’t tell difference or just don’t care. When in doubt, it’s easier and better to keep everybody covered and focus on effectively portraying what the characters are doing, and double-checking with yourself to make sure that’s where your priorities are. Otherwise you risk unnecessarily alienating the women and tempting the men in the audience.

 

[CesarAugustus]

1. Are you okay with watching/playing heavy fanservice anime/games? No.
2. Would you be willing to sell media with such content? No.
3. Would you find it morally permissible to work for a company producing said fanservice content? No.

minion:

To be quite honest, I would be hard-pressed to think of any anime I watched that didn’t feature it.

I have seen various anime without such fanservice.

Also, Minion, posting these pictures isn’t appropiated.

Tenofovir:

On the other hand a too liberal approach may lead to a slippery slope. "It’s just a bra. It’s just a breast from the profile. It’s just a breast but there’s no nipple. It’s just a crotch region without any sexual allusion or physical details. Oh it’s just mild sexual allusion. Oh it’s just touching but it’s not sex. It’s just sex but they really love each other and they’ll probably get married soon. Oh it’s just erotic sex, etc…

Yes, without a standard that happens. People would find justifications for any of the further steps.

Minion:

So, if your livelyhood was working as an illustrator, and you were specifically asked by the company to create fanservice content, would you accept or decline? At the cost of putting food on your table? I’m a bit uncertain about this, so your thoughts are appreciated

Thank you for answering!

I would decline.

I’m an Illustrator and Graphic Designer.

For this topic, have in mind near and far occassion of sin. That is the most important topic when dealing with fanservice, modesty topics, etc.

Kamaduck, I have seen that line of reasoning in lots of blogs, like the tumblr one you menctioned. I think, these arguments fail to have in account things like sin, etc.

Also, I think the feminists and other liberals in these topics are trying to deal with the world they helped creating back in the 60’s, but they don’t want to apply solutions that would undo the premises the work with (Catholic solutions, for example). These are the consecuences of the work of H. Marcuse, W. Reich, and the likes. They have thrown sexual morality out the window, and now are concerned by “objectification”, etc. Pleeease…

Kamaduck:

Hm. Yes, but I wouldn’t be willing to create any of it myself. I would always try to treat my characters with respect and dignity. They might not always be covered, but they’d wear bikinis or weird fantasy armor to communicate things about themselves, NOT for the sake of any male (or female, I guess) fans. That should be the artist’s priority, IMO. My main problem with fanservice isn’t that it may pose an immediate temptation to guys (although it may, and that is a problem)- it’s that it trains guys to think of women as decorations first, characters/warriors/people second. If you’ve been trained to see women as objects that should conform to your whims, you’ll then see them like that regardless of what they’re wearing.

That’s the main problem. Is a image or moving image, that could be an occassion of sin for someone, male, or female. Even if the other problems you are menctioning are important too.

Also, selling/making these products could put other people in a occasion of sin.

Kamaduck:

So, in summation, I’m good with it as long as it’s not gratuitous and doesn’t disrespect the female characters in question. …

A problem with these types of arguments, is that it would easy to get around that and make products with fanservice having these “requierements” in mind.

 

[Kamaduck]

Kamaduck, I have seen that line of reasoning in lots of blogs, like the tumblr one you menctioned. I think, these arguments fail to have in account things like sin, etc.

Also, I think the feminists and other liberals in these topics are trying to deal with the world they helped creating back in the 60’s, but they don’t want to apply solutions that would undo the premises the work with (Catholic solutions, for example). These are the consecuences of the work of H. Marcuse, W. Reich, and the likes. They have thrown sexual morality out the window, and now are concerned by “objectification”, etc. Pleeease…

Yeah, you’re right that a lot of this is due to the whole sexual revolution in the 60’s. You’re also right that it isn’t OK to say “oh, well, as long as she’s making that decision, it’s OK.” I don’t think we can just accept everything that people write on Eschergirls, just as we can’t simply accept the messages we get from media.

But at the same time, I’ve learned a ton from that site. I bring up storytelling because from a production standpoint, I think that’s important. Instead of judging things solely by how much skin is showing, we should be asking ourselves why we felt the need to pose the character like that. Why we felt the need to outline the character’s breasts in her metal armor. There’s more to consider than just avoiding panty shots and short skirts, and I think that it’s important to constantly ask what our goals are. When characters act naturally, the results are almost always more modest, respectful, and less likely to incite lust than what we get when they’re put in “girl” poses. People going about their normal, non-contrived business are not going to get into that much trouble with fanservice, unless we specifically manipulate the story for that purpose. It won’t happen if we stay on guard about our own motives.

I’m sorry if I made this more confusing than it needed to be, but gender and storytelling are my favorite topics to analyze, and this thread combined them! I was so excited to talk about camera angles and poses and artistic intent and I might have gotten carried away and I’m sorry. DX

That’s the main problem. Is a image or moving image, that could be an occassion of sin for someone, male, or female. Even if the other problems you are menctioning are important too.

Also, selling/making these products could put other people in a occasion of sin.

I don’t know if this sounds selfish, but I was speaking as a viewer. I wrote that part badly, as I was talking about whether I would draw it just before. Sorry.

If I consider how blatant fanservice affects me personally, I don’t stop watching because I don’t want to support something that leads guys to sin. I stop watching because the artist has just told me that I’m not wanted. It’s because the show tells people that this is what women are. They’re things. Decorations to be posed and contorted at somebody else’s whims. I can’t watch shows or play games that have that attitude, because it hurts me.

There are other considerations (perhaps more important considerations!) in terms of how it affects guys, but I figured those could be covered by guys.

As far as selling it goes, it depends on how much fanservice we’re talking about. There’s low-level fanservice in a lot of shows, but that doesn’t mean we have to throw out a whole show because of a single beach episode. There’s a vast spectrum of what could be termed “fanservice”, ranging from simply having a character in a short skirt, to the Dragon’s Crown picture above, to stuff that’s even more unacceptable. It depends what the OP means by “heavy” fanservice, and if I’m being honest, I, personally judge that more by how the female characters are treated by the narrative/art than by how much skin they show.

A problem with these types of arguments, is that it would easy to get around that and make products with fanservice having these “requierements” in mind.

Oh, definitely. That’s why I said that if you find yourself unsure of your motives, it’s best to keep everybody covered. While I do think certain things can be necessary for certain stories, most creators would do better to keep everybody decent at all times.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Yeah, you’re right that a lot of this is due to the whole sexual revolution in the 60’s. You’re also right that it isn’t OK to say “oh, well, as long as she’s making that decision, it’s OK.” I don’t think we can just accept everything that people write on Eschergirls, just as we can’t simply accept the messages we get from media.

But at the same time, I’ve learned a ton from that site. I bring up storytelling because from a production standpoint, I think that’s important. Instead of judging things solely by how much skin is showing, we should be asking ourselves why we felt the need to pose the character like that. Why we felt the need to outline the character’s breasts in her metal armor. There’s more to consider than just avoiding panty shots and short skirts, and I think that it’s important to constantly ask what our goals are. When characters act naturally, the results are almost always more modest, respectful, and less likely to incite lust than what we get when they’re put in “girl” poses. People going about their normal, non-contrived business are not going to get into that much trouble with fanservice, unless we specifically manipulate the story for that purpose. It won’t happen if we stay on guard about our own motives.

I’m sorry if I made this more confusing than it needed to be, but gender and storytelling are my favorite topics to analyze, and this thread combined them! I was so excited to talk about camera angles and poses and artistic intent and I might have gotten carried away and I’m sorry. DX

Yes, as an artist that topic interest me too. I have read various blogs about the topic (and similar subjects), and these things are good to have in mind too. But from a viewer perspective, getting to the evident problem (near occassion of sin) is easier for people to understand.

I also like to visit certain wiki (i’m not going to menction it, it could be a big time waster, you are warned) that has helped me understand more about storytelling and such.

I don’t know if this sounds selfish, but I was speaking as a viewer. I wrote that part badly, as I was talking about whether I would draw it just before. Sorry.

If I consider how blatant fanservice affects me personally, I don’t stop watching because I don’t want to support something that leads guys to sin. I stop watching because the artist has just told me that I’m not wanted. It’s because the show tells people that this is what women are. They’re things. Decorations to be posed and contorted at somebody else’s whims. I can’t watch shows or play games that have that attitude, because it hurts me.

There are other considerations (perhaps more important considerations!) in terms of how it affects guys, but I figured those could be covered by guys.

Yes, these are offensive elements too. More on that at the end of this post.

As far as selling it goes, it depends on how much fanservice we’re talking about. There’s low-level fanservice in a lot of shows, but that doesn’t mean we have to throw out a whole show because of a single beach episode. There’s a vast spectrum of what could be termed “fanservice”, ranging from simply having a character in a short skirt, to the Dragon’s Crown picture above, to stuff that’s even more unacceptable. It depends what the OP means by “heavy” fanservice, and if I’m being honest, I, personally judge that more by how the female characters are treated by the narrative/art than by how much skin they show.

I think heavy fanservice would be something more than short skirts and beach episodes. Maybe the OP means something similar.

CesarAugustus;11561423:

A problem with these types of arguments, is that it would easy to get around that and make products with fanservice having these “requierements” in mind.

Oh, definitely. That’s why I said that if you find yourself unsure of your motives, it’s best to keep everybody covered. While I do think certain things can be necessary for certain stories, most creators would do better to keep everybody decent at all times.

Motives are important too. I’m not saying is necessary to discard considerations about treatment of characters and intention, but to have in mind the principal problem, near ocassion of sin. These are not mutually exclusive.

Blessings!

 

[Elizium23]

All my atheist friends in college were deep into anime and manga stuff. They love Japanese and other Asian culture because there is no troublesome God or Jesus or saints or martyrs or Blessed Virgin Mary weighing down the storylines or characters.

 

[CesarAugustus]

All my atheist friends in college were deep into anime and manga stuff. They love Japanese and other Asian culture because there is no troublesome God or Jesus or saints or martyrs or Blessed Virgin Mary weighing down the storylines or characters.

I think secular or non-religious people like these because they think is alternative and not mainstream.

At least this is what appears from reading and speaking with the secular fans over here and in nearby countries.

 

[minion]

Kamaduck, thank you for your reply, I will take your stance regarding such content, as I am in an environment where I cannot simply hide away from it like a rich conservative. And everyone else who responded as well, thanks. I have no more business here at CAF, and will seek advise elsewhere.

 

[ironchapman]

Yeah, you’re right that a lot of this is due to the whole sexual revolution in the 60’s. You’re also right that it isn’t OK to say “oh, well, as long as she’s making that decision, it’s OK.” I don’t think we can just accept everything that people write on Eschergirls, just as we can’t simply accept the messages we get from media.

But at the same time, I’ve learned a ton from that site. I bring up storytelling because from a production standpoint, I think that’s important. Instead of judging things solely by how much skin is showing, we should be asking ourselves why we felt the need to pose the character like that. Why we felt the need to outline the character’s breasts in her metal armor. There’s more to consider than just avoiding panty shots and short skirts, and I think that it’s important to constantly ask what our goals are. When characters act naturally, the results are almost always more modest, respectful, and less likely to incite lust than what we get when they’re put in “girl” poses. People going about their normal, non-contrived business are not going to get into that much trouble with fanservice, unless we specifically manipulate the story for that purpose. It won’t happen if we stay on guard about our own motives.

I’m sorry if I made this more confusing than it needed to be, but gender and storytelling are my favorite topics to analyze, and this thread combined them! I was so excited to talk about camera angles and poses and artistic intent and I might have gotten carried away and I’m sorry. DX

I don’t know if this sounds selfish, but I was speaking as a viewer. I wrote that part badly, as I was talking about whether I would draw it just before. Sorry.

If I consider how blatant fanservice affects me personally, I don’t stop watching because I don’t want to support something that leads guys to sin. I stop watching because the artist has just told me that I’m not wanted. It’s because the show tells people that this is what women are. They’re things. Decorations to be posed and contorted at somebody else’s whims. I can’t watch shows or play games that have that attitude, because it hurts me.

There are other considerations (perhaps more important considerations!) in terms of how it affects guys, but I figured those could be covered by guys.

As far as selling it goes, it depends on how much fanservice we’re talking about. There’s low-level fanservice in a lot of shows, but that doesn’t mean we have to throw out a whole show because of a single beach episode. There’s a vast spectrum of what could be termed “fanservice”, ranging from simply having a character in a short skirt, to the Dragon’s Crown picture above, to stuff that’s even more unacceptable. It depends what the OP means by “heavy” fanservice, and if I’m being honest, I, personally judge that more by how the female characters are treated by the narrative/art than by how much skin they show.

Oh, definitely. That’s why I said that if you find yourself unsure of your motives, it’s best to keep everybody covered. While I do think certain things can be necessary for certain stories, most creators would do better to keep everybody decent at all times.

Most anime that isn’t directed at little kids has fanservice of some sort. I don’t find that a reason to discard a show on its own. I admit to being tempted occasionally by certain scenes. If it’s really problematic, I usually just leave the show behind, as most of those shows don’t have much on the story or character development side anyways. Sometimes if it was a very minor instance of temptation because, for example, I let my guard down or something, I just resolve to do better in the future and may continue following the series.

One thing that has helped me in the past is the realization that these characters, no matter how attractive they are, how much skin they are showing, or how suggestive the post are not real. There is no way I could have a relationship with them. There is no way I could ever even just have sex with them, to say nothing of the issue of morality. No matter what body parts or glimpses of skin I can or cannot see, they can provide me no sexual pleasure outside of my own deluded fantasies, should I choose to embrace the temptation. That doesn’t mean I don’t occasionally find myself tempted by an anime character or other work of art, but it does help me overcome it before it goes any further than just a temptation. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve found my inhibitions working better and better at asking me, “Why would you think that about [character]?” Hopefully it continues to get better as I mature more.