Anime & Video Games with "Fanservice" - question

[Tenofovir]

I think secular or non-religious people like these because they think is alternative and not mainstream.

At least this is what appears from reading and speaking with the secular fans over here and in nearby countries.

Atheists I know dislike or don’t care for anime. But anime itself is interesting because it’s from a different culture. The approach is different to Hollywood, which I would say is more immoral. Anime creators, most of the time, are not Catholics, let alone Christian, but their work is often more traditional than the garbage we see from Hollywood. There may be sexual innuendo but it is usually not glamorized. It’s not seen as something of an ideal but is often criticised subtly or just used as fanservice, while the take home messages from the story are different and not immoral. Hollywood, most of the time, is worse.

Of course there is this whole league of hentai anime. I am not talking about that, but mainstream stuff which is different, albeit also formula driven. Often the tropes repeat themselves and it’s pretty reassuring to know that for a given trope you will get more of what you liked before. If a character is moe she will usually stay moe. If she is tsundere, she will usually behave that way. Maybe these things are superficial, but it can be fun to see how two characters fall more in non-erotic love.

Of course the cute designs of the character’s faces/heads and often their behaviour is endearing. Hollywood does not create such characters. The women are macho and men are usually boorish, IMHO. Yup another tough guy. Great.

The moe aspects of anime and the “sweet clueless idiot” female stereotypes the hero has to save, and so on, are also fanservice, as are the brooding and difficult to understand, quiet types - Nagato Yuki for example.

 

[Kamaduck]

I think secular or non-religious people like these because they think is alternative and not mainstream.

At least this is what appears from reading and speaking with the secular fans over here and in nearby countries.

It has other advantages, too. Firstly, there’s the fact that it’s animated, and is therefore a great medium for science fiction and fantasy titles (most of what I watch). Plus, anime is has way more variety in story and characters than, say, American movies. Movies have to make a profit, so they can’t afford to take chances. Anime is more like books- as long as the studios have some shows that do really well, they can afford to take risks and try things that haven’t been tried before. There’s more freedom to try things, and since I tend to like things that are off the beaten path, that’s important to me.

And there’s the flip side of the religion thing: sure, Christianity is never mentioned by name. That also means that nobody ever insults or belittles it, which is all too common on American TV. Conservative values like family and meeting responsibilities are not always denigrated, and while many young characters choose to ignore their parents’ wishes, it isn’t a given like it so often is in American cinema.

Tch, I got a warning from a mod for the images I posted, and it was more for people to understand the context of what many gamers are exposed to on a daily basis. If I don’t show it, then other members don’t know what I’m talking about it and blow off the issue as no big deall.

Kamaduck, thank you for your reply, I will take your stance regarding such content, as I am in an environment where I cannot simply hide away from it like a rich conservative. And everyone else who responded as well, thanks. I have no more business here at CAF, and will seek advise elsewhere.

That Dragon’s Crown image was pretty tasteless. Definitely could do with a lot less of that in gaming culture. The MtG cards are plenty for discussion purposes.

Anyways, glad I could help! Just remember that what you put in your mind has consequences, and if you do end up working as an illustrator, treat your characters and your audience with the respect they deserve. Tolerate it if you must (it is pretty much everywhere, sadly), but don’t be part of the problem yourself.

Most anime that isn’t directed at little kids has fanservice of some sort. I don’t find that a reason to discard a show on its own. I admit to being tempted occasionally by certain scenes. If it’s really problematic, I usually just leave the show behind, as most of those shows don’t have much on the story or character development side anyways. Sometimes if it was a very minor instance of temptation because, for example, I let my guard down or something, I just resolve to do better in the future and may continue following the series.

One thing that has helped me in the past is the realization that these characters, no matter how attractive they are, how much skin they are showing, or how suggestive the post are not real. There is no way I could have a relationship with them. There is no way I could ever even just have sex with them, to say nothing of the issue of morality. No matter what body parts or glimpses of skin I can or cannot see, they can provide me no sexual pleasure outside of my own deluded fantasies, should I choose to embrace the temptation. That doesn’t mean I don’t occasionally find myself tempted by an anime character or other work of art, but it does help me overcome it before it goes any further than just a temptation. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve found my inhibitions working better and better at asking me, “Why would you think that about [character]?” Hopefully it continues to get better as I mature more.

Good for you!

I honestly can’t think of any more adult-oriented shows that definitely have no fanservice (at least if we include borderline immodest clothing). That’s pretty sad. Kino’s Journey definitely has none, Haibane Renmei definitely had none, and… That’s about it.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Atheists I know dislike or don’t care for anime. But anime itself is interesting because it’s from a different culture. The approach is different to Hollywood, which I would say is more immoral. Anime creators, most of the time, are not Catholics, let alone Christian, but their work is often more traditional than the garbage we see from Hollywood. There may be sexual innuendo but it is usually not glamorized. It’s not seen as something of an ideal but is often criticised subtly or just used as fanservice, while the take home messages from the story are different and not immoral. Hollywood, most of the time, is worse.

Of course there is this whole league of hentai anime. I am not talking about that, but mainstream stuff which is different, albeit also formula driven. Often the tropes repeat themselves and it’s pretty reassuring to know that for a given trope you will get more of what you liked before. If a character is moe she will usually stay moe. If she is tsundere, she will usually behave that way. Maybe these things are superficial, but it can be fun to see how two characters fall more in non-erotic love.

Of course the cute designs of the character’s faces/heads and often their behaviour is endearing. Hollywood does not create such characters. The women are macho and men are usually boorish, IMHO. Yup another tough guy. Great.

The moe aspects of anime and the “sweet clueless idiot” female stereotypes the hero has to save, and so on, are also fanservice, as are the brooding and difficult to understand, quiet types - Nagato Yuki for example.

Yes, in many aspects is better than Hollywood and north american live action series.

Some seculars here tend to think anime is High Culture and think themselves better than the rest. They also happen to be very geeky or nerdy, so I guess is a way to search for identity.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Tch, I got a warning from a mod for the images I posted, and it was more for people to understand the context of what many gamers are exposed to on a daily basis. If I don’t show it, then other members don’t know what I’m talking about it and blow off the issue as no big deall.

Kamaduck, thank you for your reply, I will take your stance regarding such content, as I am in an environment where I cannot simply hide away from it like a rich conservative. And everyone else who responded as well, thanks. I have no more business here at CAF, and will seek advise elsewhere.

Rich conservative?

Is not that difficult to avoid such content. Also, not difficult to avoid drawing these either.

 

[DMC12]

All my atheist friends in college were deep into anime and manga stuff. They love Japanese and other Asian culture because there is no troublesome God or Jesus or saints or martyrs or Blessed Virgin Mary weighing down the storylines or characters.

I believe many of them are atheist because of a trend. I’ve seen lots of kids doing that because they are so smart and rebel, but lets not judge them but also lets not take their opinions about it. God’s willing they’ll come back at some point.

 

[Tenofovir]

Tch, I got a warning from a mod for the images I posted, and it was more for people to understand the context of what many gamers are exposed to on a daily basis. If I don’t show it, then other members don’t know what I’m talking about it and blow off the issue as no big deall.

Kamaduck, thank you for your reply, I will take your stance regarding such content, as I am in an environment where I cannot simply hide away from it like a rich conservative. And everyone else who responded as well, thanks. I have no more business here at CAF, and will seek advise elsewhere.

I think it’s understandable they don’t want controversial pictures shown. However you can still discuss stuff here - just don’t post pictures. I think people, in general, know what you mean.

 

[Tenofovir]

Yes, in many aspects is better than Hollywood and north american live action series.

Some seculars here tend to think anime is High Culture and think themselves better than the rest. They also happen to be very geeky or nerdy, so I guess is a way to search for identity.

Unfortunately anime is not high culture. There are a few exceptions, such as Studio Ghibli stuff especially titles like Nausicaa, Princess Mononoke, Only Yesterday and most especially Grave of the Fireflies. A few other titles are more difficult to process, e.g. Serial Experiments Lain or Ghost in the Shell SAC. But I would not say the vast bulk is High Culture. In fact most of it is (light) entertainment and an alternative to Hollywood or mainstream pop culture. However, I will say that most anime usually draws on rich references from outside of itself. You’ll find quotes from various writers, geographic and historic references to real events, mention of various artists and so on. That can inspire people to read up more about these things and learn more. It’s obvious that the people who write most of the stories these anime are based on, are well educated, in history or literature or music.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Unfortunately anime is not high culture. There are a few exceptions, such as Studio Ghibli stuff especially titles like Nausicaa, Princess Mononoke, Only Yesterday and most especially Grave of the Fireflies. A few other titles are more difficult to process, e.g. Serial Experiments Lain or Ghost in the Shell SAC. But I would not say the vast bulk is High Culture. In fact most of it is (light) entertainment and an alternative to Hollywood or mainstream pop culture. However, I will say that most anime usually draws on rich references from outside of itself. You’ll find quotes from various writers, geographic and historic references to real events, mention of various artists and so on. That can inspire people to read up more about these things and learn more. It’s obvious that the people who write most of the stories these anime are based on, are well educated, in history or literature or music.

Yes. When talking with friends and acquatiances I told them that, because I think some of them are like these types of fans. Also, I speak with them about other forms of culture, specially classical or academic examples.

The problem of people with superficial knowledge that think too high of themselves goes beyond geeky circles, sadly is an increasinly common problem.

I agree that various authors of anime/manga are cultured and like to put references in their works.

 

[DMC12]

I think it’s understandable they don’t want controversial pictures shown. However you can still discuss stuff here - just don’t post pictures. I think people, in general, know what you mean.

or post just a link with a warning of what is.

 

[Kamaduck]

Unfortunately anime is not high culture. There are a few exceptions, such as Studio Ghibli stuff especially titles like Nausicaa, Princess Mononoke, Only Yesterday and most especially Grave of the Fireflies. A few other titles are more difficult to process, e.g. Serial Experiments Lain or Ghost in the Shell SAC. But I would not say the vast bulk is High Culture. In fact most of it is (light) entertainment and an alternative to Hollywood or mainstream pop culture. However, I will say that most anime usually draws on rich references from outside of itself. You’ll find quotes from various writers, geographic and historic references to real events, mention of various artists and so on. That can inspire people to read up more about these things and learn more. It’s obvious that the people who write most of the stories these anime are based on, are well educated, in history or literature or music.

See, when I say I like anime it’s like saying I like books. I dislike most anime and I dislike most books, because most are not worth the time they take to watch/read. But there are lots of anime and books that I love, and I enjoy those pieces.

Anime is usually mediocre to horrendous, but it aspires to greatness way more often than Hollywood does.

I haven’t noticed any correlation between anime fans and atheists, but then I only know around three self-professed atheists IRL.

 

[CesarAugustus]

See, when I say I like anime it’s like saying I like books. I dislike most anime and I dislike most books, because most are not worth the time they take to watch/read. But there are lots of anime and books that I love, and I enjoy those pieces.

Anime is usually mediocre to horrendous, but it aspires to greatness way more often than Hollywood does.

I haven’t noticed any correlation between anime fans and atheists, but then I only know around three self-professed atheists IRL.

Thinking more about it, I think that the people drawn to anime where I live, tend to be people that likes another forms of enterteinment different from the local celebrities and the productions that feature them, the party scene, etc.

In resume, a good portion of geeky and/or nerdy people.

Some of them are not very religious? yes.

Some of them are religious? yes.

 

[Tenofovir]

See, when I say I like anime it’s like saying I like books. I dislike most anime and I dislike most books, because most are not worth the time they take to watch/read. But there are lots of anime and books that I love, and I enjoy those pieces.

Anime is usually mediocre to horrendous, but it aspires to greatness way more often than Hollywood does.

I haven’t noticed any correlation between anime fans and atheists, but then I only know around three self-professed atheists IRL.

Atheists or merely irreligious people? True atheist numbers are overinflated. In polls one for example finds that many atheists believe in God or gods.

 

[Tenofovir]

Thinking more about it, I think that the people drawn to anime where I live, tend to be people that likes another forms of enterteinment different from the local celebrities and the productions that feature them, the party scene, etc.

In resume, a good portion of geeky and/or nerdy people.

Some of them are not very religious? yes.

Some of them are religious? yes.

True. I also like a variety of stuff. MST3K, “Married with Children” and some episodes of the Simpsons are 3 of my favourite series US produced shows. I genuinely find the humour funny. I don’t really find other sitcoms funny. The only US TV show I found interesting otherwise was Bates Motel. In the past I enjoyed Millennium (the 3 season show about an FBI profiler). (In the past, I also enjoyed “Sanford and Son”)

I also watch a variety of international and foreign non-English stuff live action stuff too. There is another European sitcom based on “Married with Children” I enjoy too.

 

[Kamaduck]

Atheists or merely irreligious people? True atheist numbers are overinflated. In polls one for example finds that many atheists believe in God or gods.

I know more people who don’t really talk about God or faith, and people who don’t go to church, but I only know three or so that openly do not believe in a god of any sort. One of them is a fantasy geek who plays a lot of D&D, and the other two have no nerdy tendencies at all. Two of them don’t believe because they have not seen evidence, and the fantasy geek doesn’t believe because of the apparent cruelty of God in the OT, among other things.

 

[Tenofovir]

I know more people who don’t really talk about God or faith, and people who don’t go to church, but I only know three or so that openly do not believe in a god of any sort. One of them is a fantasy geek who plays a lot of D&D, and the other two have no nerdy tendencies at all. Two of them don’t believe because they have not seen evidence, and the fantasy geek doesn’t believe because of the apparent cruelty of God in the OT, among other things.

I bet the ones who do not believe in a god of any sort believe in some sort of “spirituality”.

And I bet they all take their delusions of meaning to imply that meaning is real, and so worth “believing” in. Kind of like one prominent Gnu going about how, we don’t really have agency, but we have a delusion/illusion of it, therefore he’ll accept it as real even though he knows it’s not real. Irrational stuff.

 

[Kamaduck]

I bet the ones who do not believe in a god of any sort believe in some sort of “spirituality”.

And I bet they all take their delusions of meaning to imply that meaning is real, and so worth “believing” in. Kind of like one prominent Gnu going about how, we don’t really have agency, but we have a delusion/illusion of it, therefore he’ll accept it as real even though he knows it’s not real. Irrational stuff.

Well, two of them don’t really seem interested in meaning or anything spiritual. The fantasy geek seems to be going through a faith crisis at the moment, and isn’t really sure what he believes.

 

[Kamaduck]

So, I know the OP is gone, but as long as this thread is here- going back to the original point. How do you guys determine what level of “fanservice” (in quotes because it means different things to different people) is acceptable, either from a creator or viewer standpoint? We’ve already established that stuff like the Witch from Dragon’s Crown is tasteless, offensive, and a possible near occasion of sin. What about the MtG card images on the first page? Is it purely a matter of what’s likely to tempt people, or are there other considerations?

For me, I don’t find anything objectively wrong with the amount of skin shown on the images. The one wearing the least (Eternal Witness) is actually the only one I’d call possibly acceptable, because the presentation is less sexualized than the other two.

The Angel of Strife isn’t particularly uncovered. She’s got her thighs exposed, but it’s nothing you wouldn’t see were she wearing a normal, even one-piece swimsuit. But I would say the piece is unacceptable on the creator’s end because the goal was obvious- instead of creating a strong warrior lady who could face her opponents head-on, they twisted her spine around and gave her a breatplate that looks like it’s painted on. I’d say that kind of thing is wrong even if it doesn’t tempt people excessively.

Thoughts?

 

[CesarAugustus]

So, I know the OP is gone, but as long as this thread is here- going back to the original point. How do you guys determine what level of “fanservice” (in quotes because it means different things to different people) is acceptable, either from a creator or viewer standpoint? We’ve already established that stuff like the Witch from Dragon’s Crown is tasteless, offensive, and a possible near occasion of sin. What about the MtG card images on the first page? Is it purely a matter of what’s likely to tempt people, or are there other considerations?

…

Thoughts?

Elements to have in mind:

Amount of skin shown and sexualization of the scene/context.

If the character designs (clothing, behaviour)/scenes would be near or far occasion of sins.

I have noticed that people tend to get around to have things just below the standard at first, and then try to push the line of acceptability further below that standard.

 

[Kamaduck]

Elements to have in mind:

Amount of skin shown and sexualization of the scene/context.

If the character designs (clothing, behaviour)/scenes would be near or far occasion of sins.

I have noticed that people tend to get around to have things just below the standard at first, and then try to push the line of acceptability further below that standard.

Yeah, that is a concern. But what I’m actually arguing this time is another standard on top of those, not a relaxing of existing standards. For me, even if I don’t think a picture should be a near occasion of sin for the majority of people, I also wouldn’t want it to sacrifice story or character for the sake of showing that yes, this character has breasts under her apparently-spandex armor.

Would you say that any of the cards on the first page are acceptable? And why or why not?

 

[CesarAugustus]

Yeah, that is a concern. But what I’m actually arguing this time is another standard on top of those, not a relaxing of existing standards. For me, even if I don’t think a picture should be a near occasion of sin for the majority of people, I also wouldn’t want it to sacrifice story or character for the sake of showing that yes, this character has breasts under her apparently-spandex armor.

Would you say that any of the cards on the first page are acceptable? And why or why not?

Yes, I know you aren’t arguing for a relaxing of standards.

What would be an standard in top of those?

Neither of these cards. If I were the artist, I wouldn’t have drawn these. In the first case, not only the skin shown and the pose, but the absurd breast detailed armor. Also. Why the exposed thighs? Why the metallic or chainmail shorts?

The second, shows elements of absurd breastplate too, and that plant-based ourtfit could also cover the back and more parts of the thigh. It could say is based on ease of movement in the jungle, but you don’t need mini shorts and a exposed back for that.

I think these cards shows the attitude prevailing in some western comic books too about having fanservice as a fundamental element in character design and illustration.

With some productions, the artists tend to develop stories in enviroments that could “justify” these, while they could also tell a good story in other places, but prefer to not, for the sake of having fanservice opportunities.