Annihilation of the damned

[total_Catholic]

LOTS of Biblical verses support the notion that our loving God’s divine judgment will destroy all sin. Malachi speaks of the saints walking on ashes and answer me this, if EVERY INCH of this new world, earth, heavens, etc is to be free of all pain, sickness, death and suffering then where will Hell be?

Jesus says the righteous will INHERIT eternal life. The wages of sin is DEATH. Revelation 20 calls hell the SECOND DEATH. Why then all of this talk of the sinners essentially having eternal life only to be tortured without mercy for all time.

Sorry, really struggling with this as it totally attacks God’s character of mercy. I am sure I am not the only person that has ever struggled with this.

 

[gmx2014]

I don’t know the answers but I’ll share my (limited) view and thoughts with you.

For a while (I don’t know how long), people (spiritual, religious or otherwise) have spread messages that “there is no right or wrong” and “there is no good and evil”.

This could be seen as, or thought of, as being “destruction of sin”. In other words, what is / was thought of as sin and / or evil is simply *denied *as being sin and evil.

 

[chefmomster2]

From the Catechism:

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

Notice the statement which I highlighted above. God’s loving mercy persist but the sinner possessing mortal sin refuses to accept this mercy.

 

[Mark1124]

LOTS of Biblical verses support the notion that our loving God’s divine judgment will destroy all sin. Malachi speaks of the saints walking on ashes and answer me this, if EVERY INCH of this new world, earth, heavens, etc is to be free of all pain, sickness, death and suffering then where will Hell be?

Who says heaven and hell have to be in the same world?

Jesus says the righteous will INHERIT eternal life. The wages of sin is DEATH. Revelation 20 calls hell the SECOND DEATH. Why then all of this talk of the sinners essentially having eternal life only to be tortured without mercy for all time.

Those sinners will live forever, but they do not have eternal life. Jesus says “Now this is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ” (John 17:3).
Humans were created for immortality, so God isn’t going to just annihilate the people who don’t wish to spend eternity with Him. And whatever torment they do experience in hell is essentially self-inflicted. The torture of hell is simply the torture of living completely apart from God. Is it unmerciful of God to allow someone to live without Him, when they have proven many times that they do not want to live with Him?

Sorry, really struggling with this as it totally attacks God’s character of mercy. I am sure I am not the only person that has ever struggled with this.

No, you are certainly not the only person to struggle with this. I will pray for you and for everyone else who struggles with this issue.

 

[gmx2014]

From the Catechism:

IV. Hell

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."610 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.611 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”

Notice the statement which I highlighted above. God’s loving mercy persist but the sinner possessing mortal sin refuses to accept this mercy.

 

[Robertanthony]

LOTS of Biblical verses support the notion that our loving God’s divine judgment will destroy all sin. Malachi speaks of the saints walking on ashes and answer me this, if EVERY INCH of this new world, earth, heavens, etc is to be free of all pain, sickness, death and suffering then where will Hell be?

Jesus says the righteous will INHERIT eternal life. The wages of sin is DEATH. Revelation 20 calls hell the SECOND DEATH. Why then all of this talk of the sinners essentially having eternal life only to be tortured without mercy for all time.

Sorry, really struggling with this as it totally attacks God’s character of mercy. I am sure I am not the only person that has ever struggled with this.

The best-case scenario would have been to make people absolutely mortal, eternal felicity would have become a prerogative, a privilege granted to those who have been good, the rest become a long-gone memory. I know annihilation of the damned would make the next (possibly) decades left of my life less of a pain in the ***. Hope is so vital to human beings, an eternity without it is cruel, however you wanna slice it. For a billion reasons, God may never be someone’s cup of tea, eternal misery for such a person is overkill.

 

[chefmomster2]

The best-case scenario would have been to make people absolutely mortal, eternal felicity would have become a prerogative, a privilege granted to those who have been good, the rest become a long-gone memory. I know annihilation of the damned would make the next (possibly) decades left of my life less of a pain in the ***. Hope is so vital to human beings, an eternity without it is cruel, however you wanna slice it. For a billion reasons, God may never be someone’s cup of tea, eternal misery for such a person is overkill.

True. While we exist as human beings we need and have salvation and the real hope for redemption. Once we leave our normal human existence, “time is up”. Persons who rejected God are given what they desired, an eternity separated from Him.

 

[Robertanthony]

True. While we exist as human beings we need and have salvation and the real hope for redemption. Once we leave our normal human existence, “time is up”. Persons who rejected God are given what they desired, an eternity separated from Him.

Hope is vital within or without time. Of course, once it’s too late, you realize God was all you really wanted to squeeze out of this stupid life, but by then it’s too late. You have to admit, though, that there should be a median alternative between 40 years in a Bahamas mansion and 40 years in a Gulag. I may choose an eternity without God, but God determines how pleasant or unpleasant thta eternity will be. Hell didn’t have to be that bad, it could have been made fun in an unholy type of way. You get sin and the pleasure of sin and independance, others sing half-heartedly the eternal praise of God in a choir. If God gave me my heart’s desire, though, I’d opt for eternal sleep. Not another moment of consciouness. Bye bye God and your shabby plan for me.

 

[Tommy555]

What if:

Man is an eternal being. What if, as Scripture states, God gives us the desires of our heart, and that desire was to have nothing to do with God. Therefore, God cast those people into a place of their own. There could be no love, because love is of God. There could be no laws, because justice is of God. The people would feel the fear and pain of others trying to kill them, but they cannot die. They would be just full of fear and pain constantly. What if that was he’ll? Life without God is misery.

 

[chefmomster2]

Hope is vital within or without time.

Nope. There is no need for Hope. We have reached the End. Can we hope for something better than eternal happiness in heaven? There is nothing better! Heaven is the answer to all our desires for happiness, pleasure, fulfillment, etc.

Is there any chance of moving from hell to heaven? Nope. This was the desire of the sinner, to be away from God. So be it.

Of course, once it’s too late, you realize God was all you really wanted to squeeze out of this stupid life, but by then it’s too late.

Nearly all of us have complete knowledge of the requirements to obtain Heaven. God offers, offers, and reoffers His mercy throughout one’s entire life. If we don’t choose God in that time, that is our responsibility.

** You have to admit, though, that there should be a median alternative between 40 years in a Bahamas mansion and 40 years in a Gulag. **

Nope. I really don’t have to agree. We have been forewarned, This is how it is. If we could choose an “intermediate” it wouldn’t make sense. We could sin just a “little bit”? We could bargain…“I’ll give you three years of faith for one free pass on adultery”?

I may choose an eternity without God, but God determines how pleasant or unpleasant that eternity will be.

Yep, but he warns us.

He gave us an instruction manual- Scripture.
He gave us Guides- the Fathers, the Saints, the clergy, the Apostolic Tradition, HIS Church
He gave us the Ticket- the Life of Faith as revealed by Christ and made available by His Resurrection.
It’s up to us to show up ar the Ticket Claim Office.

Hell didn’t have to be that bad, it could have been made fun in an unholy type of way.

Sure it does! I have been promised eternal happiness and that it what I expect to achieve! That is what all of us have been offered. The doubters, rejecters, sinners have been promised eternal suffering. Likewise, God will keep this promise.
Robertanthony;11890329:

You get sin and the pleasure of sin and independance, others sing half-heartedly the eternal praise of God in a choir.

There is no evidence that we lose our free will, it is just directed always to the will of God. If this was not our choice we would not be in Heaven. There is no reason to believe that the angels sing half-heartedly. If so, they would not be angels.

HEAVEN IS THE FULFILLMENT OF ALL DESIRE! There is no sin there! What would we sin for? To get something better? More pleasure than the ultimate pleasure? There is no such thing.

If God gave me my heart’s desire, though, I’d opt for eternal sleep. Not another moment of consciouness. Bye bye God and your shabby plan for me.

His Plan is to bring you to heaven to obtain that ultimate pleasure. He wants you to be gathered to Him. He is giving you time to discover His wondrous plan for you.

 

[Tom_Baum]

If Christianity is only about getting your own self into the “good place” then it sure does not seem very Christian to me.

 

[Robertanthony]

If Christianity is only about getting your own self into the “good place” then it sure does not seem very Christian to me.

It’s more like selfishness with delayed gratification. Built into our DNA, but differing in degrees from one person to the next, is this “what’s in it for me” thing. But then I have to wonder how truly selfless God is, because his proposal is essentially this: MY way or the highway. The highway being a satanic soup made of hatred, despair, regret, remorse, pitch blackness, and Satan and friends basically torturing you spiritually **and **physically. I’d like to have an “abort game” option, after all God did not have the basic courtesy of wondering if I was gonna enjoy being part of this insanity. If I think he sucks (which I do), I’m left with Satan, Satan being as appealing as a grotesque, hairy, ugly insect. God places us in that dilemma, whether it pleases us or not, the dilemma has implications that no humna mind can freaking fathom (i.e. eternity). Perhaps after 100 billion years in hell, I’ll think God was not such a lousy option after all. The catch in this is when you realize what God is, your whole body is irreversibly caught in a lobster pot. God is the quintessential tragedian. Makes things more exciting; no matter how you look at it, God alone throughout eternity must have been boring, boring, boring. What do you even talk about when you have no human beings to control and chastize?

 

[chefmomster2]

It’s more like selfishness with delayed gratification. Built into our DNA, but differing in degrees from one person to the next, is this “what’s in it for me” thing.

That "thing is Original Sin which came as a result of Free Will. One person chooses to follow the path that scriptures say will bring happiness. Some do not. Their unhappiness is proportional to their lack of faith. NO ONE IS BORN BAD, but everyone can choose evil if they wish.

But then I have to wonder how truly selfless God is, because his proposal is essentially this: MY way or the highway.

Who says God is selfless? He is the One who can truly and honestly declare, “It’s all about me!” He is all powerful, so he can say my way or the highway! But notice free will gives you an option: the highway!

The highway being a satanic soup made of hatred, despair, regret, remorse, pitch blackness, and Satan and friends basically torturing you spiritually **and **physically.

You described the works of Satan PERFECTLY! These are the fruits of sin. This is the result of choosing to follow the way which you are warned will cause everlasting pain and heartache.

I’d like to have an “abort game” option, after all God did not have the basic courtesy of wondering if I was gonna enjoy being part of this insanity.

An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God does not owe us “courtesy”. Your “enjoyment” is not important. God gives you life. You make it what it is.

If I think he sucks (which I do), I’m left with Satan, Satan being as appealing as a grotesque, hairy, ugly insect. God places us in that dilemma, whether it pleases us or not, the dilemma has implications that no humna mind can freaking fathom (i.e. eternity).

No, you can choose to suspend disbelief in God while you keep an open mind and study, listen to solid advice from clergy and a religious advisor, read the scriptures and pray. You still have a choice. God, who does not do things as you think they “ought” to be done, or Satan who deliberately and with malice purposely does whatever he can to destroy you.

Perhaps after 100 billion years in hell, I’ll think God was not such a lousy option after all. The catch in this is when you realize what God is, your whole body is irreversibly caught in a lobster pot.

True. But it is your choice to just sit and wait.

God is the quintessential tragedian. Makes things more exciting; no matter how you look at it, God alone throughout eternity must have been boring, boring, boring.

The God who created the enormously magnificent and confounding wonders of nature may be many things, but He is not boring! He has given us enough mysteries and puzzles to keep our minds busy for ages!

What do you even talk about when you have no human beings to control and chastise?

I suppose…if you think control and chastisement is the best fodder for conversation. I prefer to talk about Emily Dickinson, my faith, my hubby and kids, detective stories, old film noir, yummy recipes, etc.

 

[chefmomster2]

Fuego,

If you are over 18 you are well past the age where you can blame your parents for your faith. (I am referring to your personal info.) "Mommy said I have to!"when spoken by a child is to be expected. As an adult, it is a refusal to accept responsibility for your life now.

 

[Robertanthony]

That "thing is Original Sin which came as a result of Free Will. One person chooses to follow the path that scriptures say will bring happiness. Some do not. Their unhappiness is proportional to their lack of faith. NO ONE IS BORN BAD, but everyone can choose evil if they wish…

Jeffrey Dhamer had a pretty uneventful youth, it’s very likely his propensity to go rape, kill and eat men must have happened in utero. Some are born more depraved than others, there are 1,5 and 10 talent people, likewise we all differ in our depravity. I never had an irresitible urge to go on a killing spree and eat my victims, it never crossed my mind.

Who says God is selfless? He is the One who can truly and honestly declare, “It’s all about me!” He is all powerful, so he can say my way or the highway! But notice free will gives you an option: the highway!.

God is selfish and self-centered but has every right to be given his status? AKA God can do no wrong because he’s God? He may have tyrannical ways but it’s okay since he is the “I am who am”?

An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God does not owe us “courtesy”. Your “enjoyment” is not important. God gives you life. You make it what it is…

If there is one thing I understand clearly and perfectly, it’s that my enjoyment does not even score on God’s list. A gentleman can be courteous, doesn’t have to cram something down your throat because he can.

No, you can choose to suspend disbelief in God while you keep an open mind and study, listen to solid advice from clergy and a religious advisor, read the scriptures and pray. You still have a choice. God, who does not do things as you think they “ought” to be done, or Satan who deliberately and with malice purposely does whatever he can to destroy you. .

Of course, God made it extremely hard for Satan to destroy me. Talk about partners in crime (OK that was snarky, but it’s my core belief). God decreed an immunity to success and breaks for this loser (me), 40 some years of being a sub human is apparently not enough. Something about predestination. If someone lives in an abusive home, is force fed porridge, to the point of being sick, if you have them over and offer them porridge, you mean well, but they won’t accept your offer. But you did your part, you offered them food. God offers me his quote unquote love (whatever that means coming from God) and salvation. Now that I’m set in my ways, that my personality is set, it’s too little too late for God to try and win me over me with his tiny favours. He’s like someone I can no longer stand and will be relieved when I hear of their passing, thinking “good riddance”.

The God who created the enormously magnificent and confounding wonders of nature may be many things, but He is not boring! He has given us enough mysteries and puzzles to keep our minds busy for ages!.

I meant God was bored out of his mind being that he had no creatures to torment, uh I mean to assist in times of trouble. He created us for his enjoyment, you said it yourself. And I appreciate your being straightforward and clear about this.

I suppose…if you think control and chastisement is the best fodder for conversation. I prefer to talk about Emily Dickinson, my faith, my hubby and kids, detective stories, old film noir, yummy recipes, etc.

Again, I meant God. Film noirs are interesting, but they rarely depart from a formula. Sunset Boulevard is awesome. A trinity alone in unlit void, with no one else around or to think about=absolute, deadly bore.

 

[Robertanthony]

Fuego,

If you are over 18 you are well past the age where you can blame your parents for your faith. (I am referring to your personal info.) "Mommy said I have to!"when spoken by a child is to be expected. As an adult, it is a refusal to accept responsibility for your life now.

Fuego?! My worldview has been “graciously” passed down from my parents to me. I was a naive, half dumb introvert, I can guarantee you that had my parents taught me that I was another incarnation in a long succession of incarnations, I would believe in reincarnation now. For the record, my parents, from a merely biological/genetic standpoint, had n-o-t-h-i-n-g whatsoever to contribute to this world. But you can’t keep inbreds and other sub humans from procreating, can you? Two talented musicians will produce Randy Rhoads, two inbreds will produce a sub human. Or me. A hypersensitive, one-talent, slow-witted, zero personality dummy created to bring God glory. Of course, give me money or Jesus’ grey matter, and I resurrect from my ashes. But as stated previously, God, ab aeterno, decreed an immunity to success and breaks for this loser.

 

[total_Catholic]

Fuego?! My worldview has been “graciously” passed down from my parents to me. I was a naive, half dumb introvert, I can guarantee you that had my parents taught me that I was another incarnation in a long succession of incarnations, I would believe in reincarnation now. For the record, my parents, from a merely biological/genetic standpoint, had n-o-t-h-i-n-g whatsoever to contribute to this world. But you can’t keep inbreds and other sub humans from procreating, can you? Two talented musicians will produce Randy Rhoads, two inbreds will produce a sub human. Or me. A hypersensitive, one-talent, slow-witted, zero personality dummy created to bring God glory. Of course, give me money or Jesus’ grey matter, and I resurrect from my ashes. But as stated previously, God, ab aeterno, decreed an immunity to success and breaks for this loser.

The fact that you are CREATED AND EXIST proves that God wants to have a relationship with you. You’re luckier than the 50 million or so who were aborted because they were an “inconvenient” to their mother. Trust me, I have felt the same way you’re feeling but it’s amazing what actually reaching out and talking to somebody, in my case a priest at Confession today, can do and by doing so, it shows God that yes, you DO care. Blessings your way!

 

[chefmomster2]

Dhamer had a pretty uneventful youth, it’s very likely his propensity…happened in utero. Some are born more depraved than others,…we all differ in our depravity. I never had an irresitible urge to go on a killing spree and eat my victims…

God created ALL GOOD. Some succumb to temptation. Dahmer and others may have been insane. It could be that some of these people were not insane, but their choice to defy God that caused the depravity.

I do not believe that you would perpetrate acts such as these. If you interpreted anything I said that way, I apologize. It was completely unintended.

God is selfish and self-centered but has every right to be given his status? AKA God can do no wrong because he’s God? He may have tyrannical ways but it’s okay since he is the “I am who am”?

Yes, God can do no wrong because He is God. God is perfect Goodness. Evil does not exist in Him. Evil cannot come from Good.

God is not selfish or self-centered. He desires to share His kingdom with us all. He sent His Son to die for that cause. But, this nonetheless diminishes His status as God and as such, the object of our adoration. He is not tyrannical, but rather gives us all choice through free will. Bad consequences or good result as the response to these choices.

If there is one thing I understand clearly and perfectly, it’s that my enjoyment does not even score on God’s list. A gentleman can be courteous, doesn’t have to cram something down your throat because he can.

God cares about our ULTIMATE happiness. Again, there is no cramming. He teaches good with its positive consequences and bad with its evil consequences. Full disclosure! The choice is yours through your free will.

A gentleman has to be courteous as it is a defining feature of gentlemanliness. God owes us NOTHING. Courtesy does not enter into it.

Of course, God made it extremely hard for Satan to destroy me. Talk about partners in crime.

Yes, God wants it to hard for Satan to destroy you. He loves you and does not want you to succumb to evil.

God decreed an immunity to success and breaks for this loser (me), 40 some years of being a sub human is apparently not enough.

Nope. It is a combination of poor preparation, poor judgment, lack of knowledge, lack of maturity, the evil choices of others, deficits whether by choice, environment or heredity, discrimination, outside factors and plain old chance. Success is not measured by failure. Failure is fully the result of giving up.

Something about predestination.

There is no predestination with free will.

If someone lives in an abusive home, is force fed porridge, to the point of being sick, if you have them over and offer them porridge, you mean well, but they won’t accept your offer.

God offers solace from the pain, not more of the same. Abuse can contribute to a person becoming an abuser, feeling like a failure, losing heart, or denying God’s love. That is NOT a fixed result. I was physically, sexually, emotionally, and spiritually abused for over 20 years by multiple persons over a period of 50 years. I have suffered great agony because of this abuse. I still have a lot if pain. But, I refuse to take up where my abusers left off and to continue their evil by abusing myself or anyone else. I CHOOSE TO LOVE AND BE LOVED!

God offers me his quote unquote love…and salvation, whatever that means.

It means that your life here and in eternity can be different. You can be filled with life, love, meaning, and joy.

Now that I’m set in my ways, that my personality is set, it’s too little too late for God to try and win me over me with his tiny favours.

It is NOT too late until your body breathes its last. The thief on the cross aside Jesus sure waited until the last minute, but he was assured of being with Christ in Heaven that very moment. His favors are eternal and literally everything!

He’s like someone I can no longer stand and will be relieved when I hear of their passing, thinking “good riddance”.

You will be able to achieve at least this: if you wish to be eternally separated from God, you will be able to guarantee it.

I meant God was bored out of his mind being that he had no creatures to torment…He created us for his enjoyment, you said it yourself.

True enjoyment- He wants our love, our companionship, our presence or He need not have created any of this! He is not an evil puppeteer poking us just to see us jump and squeal. He gives us Good and the choice to live in the Good. If we choose not to, we allow Satan to pull our strings.

Again, I meant God. Film noirs are interesting, but they rarely depart from a formula. Sunset Boulevard is awesome. A trinity alone in unlit void, with no one else around or to think about=absolute, deadly bore.

To each his own. I am sure you have your own interests. BTW, I love Sunset Boulevard too!

Since when is it “unlit”? “I am the Light of the World”, says the Lord. And I don’t know how empty it will be with bajillions of souls there.​

What you are currently doing is obviously not bringing you happiness. You anticipate that you will continue to be in agony throughout the afterlife. Why not investigate an approach that you see has given comfort and hope to millions. What have you got to lose? Could things possibly get worse? You are not suffering from Predestination but rather self-fulfilling prophecy. Change the focus, change the behavior, change the results!

 

[chefmomster2]

Fuego?!

Sorry.I have been sharing posts with Fuego, another poster, and got confused. It doesn’t take much to confuse me! LOL

 

[Robertanthony]

Sorry.I have been sharing posts with Fuego, another poster, and got confused. It doesn’t take much to confuse me! LOL

Ha! ha! I looked all the way up this thread to see who this Fuego was. Then I wondered if it might have been an expression I wasn’t aware of. Fuego also means “fire” in Spanish… Now it all makes sense!