Annoying Concert Masses

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A friend of mine sings in the choir with me. She’s got her boyfriend singing in the congregation even though he sings in every key but the right one. 😛 He’s the only young guy singing. (At least he sings loud. :p)
 
A friend of mine sings in the choir with me. She’s got her boyfriend singing in the congregation even though he sings in every key but the right one. 😛 He’s the only young guy singing. (At least he sings loud. :p)
Now, that is adorable! Hope he keeps singing and encourages others around him to do the same.
 
Again perhaps your city may not have one up and coming organist. But where I live and in the surrounding cities, we have young organists - I personally know and work with a few. Perhaps not the amount that there used to be, but I think that has to do with pushing out good organists in the churches a couple of decades ago and not having any good influence on the up and coming kids.
Wow, what a blessing. In our area, you’re lucky to find a decent piano player, let alone an organist. At my parish we have, I think, three people who can read music and play the piano. Although I’ve been playing the piano some 29 years, and my skills are somewhat lacking. Voice was my instrument in college :o

An organist?! Good luck finding one around here! I’m thinking when I complete my doctorate I’ll take some organ lessons and get that instrument dusted off! The one thing I can play on the organ, however, is Latin chant, because I learned how in my years in the monastery. If only my parish would need that skill…🤷

Gertie
 
Do you know what you’re saying when you say “Amen” or “Alleluia” or (maybe more rare these days) “Kyrie eleison”?

If you know what you’re saying when you pray the Our Father in English, then you know what you’re saying when you pray the Pater Noster in Latin. And Latin is the official language of the Roman (i.e. Latin) Rite, and the Church has continually requested that our pastors educate us in singing or saying certain parts of the Mass in Latin. (Yes, even at and after Vatican II!)
(cymbal crash) 👍
 
Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony, I can’t get enough of. I’m blessed to have 3 choices to assist the TLM on Sunday. I prefer weekday Mass w/no choir or cantor for the OF. Frankly, anything but Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony annoys me at Mass. At least the parishes in my area.
 
Wow, what a blessing. In our area, you’re lucky to find a decent piano player, let alone an organist. At my parish we have, I think, three people who can read music and play the piano. Although I’ve been playing the piano some 29 years, and my skills are somewhat lacking. Voice was my instrument in college :o

An organist?! Good luck finding one around here! I’m thinking when I complete my doctorate I’ll take some organ lessons and get that instrument dusted off! The one thing I can play on the organ, however, is Latin chant, because I learned how in my years in the monastery. If only my parish would need that skill…🤷

Gertie
Our area is blessed, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have our share of bad musicians as well. :o

If you can, please do take organ lessons. Pianists often times make very good organists once they start learning. AND if more good organists are heard in churches, the better the influence on the younger generations. Best of luck with your doctorate! I know how crazy that can be. Are you getting it in music?
 
"]QUOTE
Please don’t ever accuse a good musician, or a musician who is trying their best, of showing off. That is a horrible thing to say. It makes me never want to play in church again and face the possibility that someone who is thinking this is sitting in the congregation wishing me ill.

I just wanted to say that when the choir sings well at mass, it makes the liturgy that much more prayerful. Singing is a form of prayer. We are rejoicing in the Lord! Sometimes it moves me to tears. So I hope you TRULY don’t feel like giving up because there are plenty of people who appreciate your talent. Also, as far as the applause, our priest encourages it to be reserved for after the last song is over, or if it happens during mass to be only if the Holy Spirit TRULY moves you to do so.
 
At my church I sing in the choir. We don’t get auditioned. Anybody can join our choir.
I was sitting next to a lady who doesn’t have a singing voice at all but her husband plays the guitar in the choir… I guess that is why she is there.lol.

I always look at the instrumental musicians as people who wanted to be professional musicans but don’t really have the abilities.

I am not a great singer myself and have a thin voice. I also wanted to be a singer but didn’t have the voice.

But I truly love the choir members who are fun to hang out with after church. We truly like to dance and sing at our church dance parties.
 
I always look at the instrumental musicians as people who wanted to be professional musicans but don’t really have the abilities.
Although, when you’re classically trained as an organist, you pretty much know that your professional career will be in a church. 😃

I don’t really think it’s fair to say that instrumentalists are there because they don’t have the chops to be musicians in the secular sphere. I know and work with plenty of very good and competent professional instrumentalists who also have positions in churches. Most musicians get work where ever they can. It’s not an easy path in life (in terms of making a living.) I’ve worked with Julliard and Curtis graduates who are some of the best musicians you can get, but they have positions in churches along with their other musician jobs. And then there are those musicians who just want to give back to their parish. Also, people do say the same for singers - in the choir or as cantors. So for me, I personally couldn’t sit well in my conscience to think that way of instrumentalists unless I really know them as people and their abilities.

That all said, I do know that Catholic church musicians do have a bad reputation amongst musicians from other denominations. They are often times looked down upon because many times the musicians at some parishes are so great. They prejudge you if you say that you work at a Catholic parish. Once you say that, they immediately think, “Oh, bad musician, bad music.” This is more so from churches that do more of the classical repertoire towards other classical musicians who work in the Catholic church. What many of my classical instrumentalist colleagues put up with is, no respect from church musicians outside of the Catholic church AND not much respect from people within their own church. So, they are truly are doing it for God, since they don’t expect anything from anyone else.
 
At my church I sing in the choir. We don’t get auditioned. Anybody can join our choir.
I was sitting next to a lady who doesn’t have a singing voice at all but her husband plays the guitar in the choir… I guess that is why she is there.lol.

I always look at the instrumental musicians as people who wanted to be professional musicans but don’t really have the abilities.

I am not a great singer myself and have a thin voice. I also wanted to be a singer but didn’t have the voice.

But I truly love the choir members who are fun to hang out with after church. We truly like to dance and sing at our church dance parties.
I don’t think that is a fair assessment at all. As another poster pointed out, if you are trained to be a professional organist, the bulk of available work is in a church environment. At certain Liturgies we have a instrumentalist who plays recorder and other various woodwinds. He is a professional, we pay him to come and play.

As for vocalists, yes some come to sing in choirs that aren’t (and possibly cannot be) professional singers. My organist and his wife could rival anyone on these modern reality sing-a-longs (e.g., American Idol). I also seem to recall a certain opera singer who sang at a certain Liturgy at a certain ball park for a certain Pope when said Pope came to America a certain ~12 months ago. And he’s no hack. In fact he’s Placido Domingo, arguably the best current tenor in the world.
 
I am a professional musician: I make a living playing music. Every weekend I have a wedding. Every Friday night I usually have a gig somewhere. I am paid to be a studio musician and play on people’s CD’s. I CHOOSE to put most of my time in my salaried job at the church playing piano and guitar.

Church is NOT a place for someone who can’t get another gig. In fact, I tell all my musicians to “get a gig” so they can get their playing chops up and use all their gear and fancy stuff there, so they know to keep it simple when they come to church.

My contemporary instruments are the most low maintanence pro group I’ve ever worked with. It’s all a well-oiled machine where they know where I am going by the hair on the back of my head. They know how to fill where they are supposed to and not overtake the congregation, but to get out of the way. This is REAL musicianship.
 
Church is NOT a place for someone who can’t get another gig. In fact, I tell all my musicians to “get a gig” so they can get their playing chops up and use all their gear and fancy stuff there, so they know to keep it simple when they come to church.
This is so important, especially for musicians who can play their instruments outside of a church. They truly learn the difference between what most non-musicians consider “performing” and “rendering”.

The organ is one of the only exceptions. Because organs are mostly in churches, they are taught to play according to what the church needs and the organ compositions require. Most organists I know don’t consider themselves “performers” at all mainly because of the nature of their job and their instrument. People mistakenly assume and judge them of showing off when they play organ preludes or postludes by composers like Buxtehude or Couperin, but in reality, they are playing exactly what the composer wrote to be done in a church setting. For hymns and mass parts, good organists are taught to help support the congregation for congregational pieces. A good organist won’t play it like an instrumental.

All other instrumentalists and vocalists learn this as they go along and work more in churches. I have found that many who “gig” outside of church tend to know the difference between a secular performance and a sacred offering or “spiritual presentation” as our bishop has said. It’s a little different for musicians who mainly perform outside of church then come into a church setting. And that’s for any kind of musician. Freelancing and substituting a lot, I have witnessed a big difference in that. But if a good musician has been working in church ministry on a continual basis, they learn the difference and it is always a joy to work with them in that regard.
 
That all said, I do know that Catholic church musicians do have a bad reputation amongst musicians from other denominations. **They are often times looked down upon because many times the musicians at some parishes are so great. ** They prejudge you if you say that you work at a Catholic parish. Once you say that, they immediately think, “Oh, bad musician, bad music.” This is more so from churches that do more of the classical repertoire towards other classical musicians who work in the Catholic church. What many of my classical instrumentalist colleagues put up with is, no respect from church musicians outside of the Catholic church AND not much respect from people within their own church. So, they are truly are doing it for God, since they don’t expect anything from anyone else.
I meant “They are often times looked down upon because many times the musicians at some parishes **aren’t **so great.” Apologies for any confusion.
 
This is so important, especially for musicians who can play their instruments outside of a church. They truly learn the difference between what most non-musicians consider “performing” and “rendering”.

The organ is one of the only exceptions. Because organs are mostly in churches, they are taught to play according to what the church needs and the organ compositions require. Most organists I know don’t consider themselves “performers” at all mainly because of the nature of their job and their instrument. People mistakenly assume and judge them of showing off when they play organ preludes or postludes by composers like Buxtehude or Couperin, but in reality, they are playing exactly what the composer wrote to be done in a church setting. For hymns and mass parts, good organists are taught to help support the congregation for congregational pieces. A good organist won’t play it like an instrumental.

All other instrumentalists and vocalists learn this as they go along and work more in churches. I have found that many who “gig” outside of church tend to know the difference between a secular performance and a sacred offering or “spiritual presentation” as our bishop has said. It’s a little different for musicians who mainly perform outside of church then come into a church setting. And that’s for any kind of musician. Freelancing and substituting a lot, I have witnessed a big difference in that. But if a good musician has been working in church ministry on a continual basis, they learn the difference and it is always a joy to work with them in that regard.
I can remember growing up in a Protestant (Conference Baptist, or Swedish Baptist) church, when the organ prelude and postlude were works of great music literature by the master composers. The organist worked hard to play these preludes, which literally lifted us out of the world and placed us as close to heaven as we could get while still alive.

Many Protestant churches, at least the evangelical ones, do not use organs in their worship services nowadays. The only time the organ is used is in funerals for old people, and then a Bach Fugue is not appropriate (old hymns are appropriate).

Only a few time, have I have heard a truly great organ piece done as a Prelude in the Catholic Church. Several times, I’ve heard great Postlude pieces, but that’s also controversial–the ones who say that the time after Mass is supposed to be a “quiet time” for praying object when the organist is up there with all the stops pulled out blasting away at a Buxtehude piece! Grrr.

What I usually hear in Catholic churches is no Prelude or a very simple play-through of a hymn. Sometimes the organist just plays meditative chords.

If I am playing the piano, I play a simple hymn for the prelude, often a “Protestant” hymn because I have no copies of Catholic hymns arranged for the piano. I feel awkward playing anything technically difficult, because I think that Catholics are not capable of listening to good instruments before Mass without getting their focus bent out whack. They forget all about the Mass and instead, concentrate on that great pianist up there.

Once my daughter sang “Rejoice” from Handel’s Messiah (Advent Mass), and the people applauded and it was very beautiful. But so many people on this CAF board have condemned such a thing as “Protestant” that I feel awkward when people sing a Prelude now.

So I continue to play non-descript, quiet, super-easy (for me) pieces.

No wonder the Catholic Church has sucky, wimpy, lifeless music. The congregation doesn’t let us do what we are capable of doing. Someone will complain.

BTW, I played my Palestrina CD the other day while making up my menus. Honestly people, you enjoy this? Sorry. I found it creepy. I had to turn it off and put on some Taylor Hicks. I honestly don’t see any local congregation doing this kind of music well–most people do not know how to sing in a head voice or stay on pitch. It was bad enough listening to a professional choir do it; I can’t even imagine listening to a group of senior citizens with “minor thirds” instead of vibratos, or to a teenaged choir bending the notes “pop style” doing Palestrina.
 
A friend of mine sings in the choir with me. She’s got her boyfriend singing in the congregation even though he sings in every key but the right one. 😛 He’s the only young guy singing. (At least he sings loud. :p)
In our parish at the Vigil we take turns singing the Psalms. I know it’s far from the ideal but our usual cantor can’t do the Exsultet and all the Psalms. The day they were rehearsing the director asked each person what note they wanted to start on. I was not there for the rehearsal but DH was and asked the director “Does Phemie have a note?” “Yeah, her own.” :o

If they task me to sing a Psalm she knows that giving me a starting note is useless and she knows not to have the organist (who’s a great classical guitarist :p) play because it just confuses everyone. But they know I can pull it off if there is no music.
 
Many Protestant churches, at least the evangelical ones, do not use organs in their worship services nowadays. The only time the organ is used is in funerals for old people, and then a Bach Fugue is not appropriate (old hymns are appropriate).
I agree with you regarding this for evangelical churches. One of my uncles belong to an evangelical, born-again church of some sort, and they do mostly Christian contemporary music. The Protestant churches that I’ve worked in continuously which do the more “classical” or “traditional” kinds of music were usually Episcopal, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. I know there are some churches within these denominations that don’t always fit that, but these were the churches that alot of Catholic organist colleagues got their jobs in when the Catholic Church in the 70s and 80s basically went for the folk guitar masses and got rid of doing organ work.
Only a few time, have I have heard a truly great organ piece done as a Prelude in the Catholic Church. Several times, I’ve heard great Postlude pieces, but that’s also controversial–the ones who say that the time after Mass is supposed to be a “quiet time” for praying object when the organist is up there with all the stops pulled out blasting away at a Buxtehude piece! Grrr. .
I know totally how you feel.

I’m spoiled. I get to pray to wonderful organ repertoire every week at my parish. His preludes are always subdued and meditative, but are usually from the repertoire throughout the centuries. He plays and completes the pieces so that there is prayer time before mass beings. He plays everything, but I love his French Baroque rep the most. His postludes, depending on the time of year, are jubilant. And he remarkably plays these works with such prayer that there have been times where I was brought to tears because of how spiritually beautiful it was. That is unusual.

Our organist is not only an incredible organist, but he is an equally incredible pianist AND a top-rate accompanist whether for sacred repertoire or secular repertoire. He truly knows how to breathe with a singer(s) or a congregation. He never overpowers. He knows every part of his organ so well so that the sound he creates for mass and for prayer is correct. I’ve heard other people on that huge pipe organ and they don’t know how to handle it. They make it sound so ugly and overbearing - basically don’t know how to play it. Our organist is never ostentatious with it. He treats it with respect and with the congregation and God in mind, yet he brings the real organ repertoire to life and with sheer beauty.
If I am playing the piano, I play a simple hymn for the prelude, often a “Protestant” hymn because I have no copies of Catholic hymns arranged for the piano.
The Worship III hymnals should have all their hymns usable for piano. You might want to try that. And even though I don’t really like OCP hymnals, when I worked for another parish, I’d use the music from their books to play and go over with my choir.
I feel awkward playing anything technically difficult, because I think that Catholics are not capable of listening to good instruments before Mass without getting their focus bent out whack. They forget all about the Mass and instead, concentrate on that great pianist up there.
I understand what you mean, but please don’t underestimate Catholics. I am so appreciative of good musicianship for Mass. It brings my focus even more so towards God. I know that I’m not the only one who feels that way just from the people I know - and they’re not all musicians.
Once my daughter sang “Rejoice” from Handel’s Messiah (Advent Mass), and the people applauded and it was very beautiful. But so many people on this CAF board have condemned such a thing as “Protestant” that I feel awkward when people sing a Prelude now.
I think more of the problem was that people applauded. Our organist/music director very rarely does solos like that unless it’s part of choral piece mainly because it creates competition in the choir. People he never thought would be like this suddenly think “about me” and getting the solo and not about the spiritual aspect of the music. So, after an experiment one year to see how it would go, he decided not to try it again. It broke the harmony of the choir.
 
No wonder the Catholic Church has sucky, wimpy, lifeless music. The congregation doesn’t let us do what we are capable of doing. Someone will complain.
This goes back to my previous post that many Protestant church musicians don’t have a lot of respect for Catholic church musicians. They equate Catholic church music today with poor music. I have friends and colleagues who work in Protestant churches and they’ll say to me, “What happen to you guys (Catholics)? You used to have the most glorious and beautiful sacred music around. People looked to the Catholic Church for great sacred music. Now you’ve thrown it all away and we’re playing your music in our churches. Your music ministry is a laughing stock.” They are always happy when they hear of places like my parish. They then know that not all Catholic churches have given up on our musical heritage.
BTW, I played my Palestrina CD the other day while making up my menus. Honestly people, you enjoy this? Sorry. I found it creepy. I had to turn it off and put on some Taylor Hicks. I honestly don’t see any local congregation doing this kind of music well–most people do not know how to sing in a head voice or stay on pitch. It was bad enough listening to a professional choir do it; I can’t even imagine listening to a group of senior citizens with “minor thirds” instead of vibratos, or to a teenaged choir bending the notes “pop style” doing Palestrina.
You don’t have to like it. Just know that this is what Church esteems. What group is singing it? It all depends on the group. And, no, you don’t have to sing polyphony just in head voice. Singing in head voice is not proper singing technique even for good early music singers. I’ve heard wimpy groups sing polyphony and good early music groups sing with fullness of sound yet not with heavy vibrato. The other problem is that some of these early music groups come off very cold. They don’t sing the music with the spiritual aspect in mind. I’ve been left cold by many recordings because of it. I actually prefer hearing it in a church because the people in the church choirs do it much better. A couple of the Anglican/Episcopal parishes in my area do a gorgeous job of it. Even our parish, which is mostly made up of volunteers - many of whom don’t read music - do it very well. But again, we’re spoiled. We have a music director who knows how to get the music taught to the choir and does it with such love so that our 30+ voice choir also loves the music. They do Palestrina almost every other week. We had one of his masses for our own wedding, along with a Tallis motet, Faure work, Mozart, Latin Gregorian chant, etc. And everyone in our congregation, even people who weren’t into classical sacred music couldn’t get over at how spiritually beautiful it was. If you have the right kind of music director, it can be done - and done well.

You will always have those certain early music snobs, of course, which I actually don’t want to waste my time with because they tend to be cold and soul-less. This music had/has soul and my personal opinion is that those kind of people within the early music crowd who stormed the music work in the late 20th c. strove to take the soul out of that music whether or not they realized that. That’s where you get that wimpy, lifeless, cold and head voice type of singing.
 
Cat: Palestrina? Creepy? :bigyikes:

I really want to reply to this but at this point I cannot do so charitably. Cat…
Never mind. You cannot and will not take my heritage from me.
 
Cat: Palestrina? Creepy? :bigyikes:

I really want to reply to this but at this point I cannot do so charitably. Cat…
Never mind. You cannot and will not take my heritage from me.
brotherhrolf, for heaven’s sake, don’t get upset over the fact that I don’t have the same preferences in music that you have.

I don’t like chant or chant-like music. I am not taking your heritage away from you by holding my own opinion, am I? You are still free to revel in the music that you enjoy and appreciate.

Likewise, if you do not like certain styles of music that I like, that does not detract from my enjoyment of those styles.

To each his/her own, OK? There is no reason to get angry or to struggle to “reply charitably.” It’s not something to get mad about. Everyone has their own tastes. That’s OK.

If the Church wants this kind of music played, they’re going to have to do a whole lot more educating of musicians in the Church, because I think a lot of people feel the way I do. They don’t understand this music and they don’t like it very much. sarabande is extremely blessed to have a good music director. I have yet to meet anyone in the Catholic Church who is so knowledgeable.

I have requested over and over again in my diocese MORE information and education about Catholic music for laypeople–so far no luck. I think it’s the topic that everyone is afraid to touch. I think Catholics would rather talk about the sex scandal in the Church rather than Mass music. It’s a very emotional topic.

The only reason I posted my comment about Palestrina is so that Catholics would realize that not everyone likes chant and Baroque music and classical music. There are a lot of people who really dislike it (my husband says it’s “jumpy” and “nervous”.)

That being said, for Mass music, it doesn’t matter two hoots what we actually like! We appreciate the fact that Gregorian chant should have a place of honor in the Church. We want to do as the Church says and have the kind of music that they request, even if it is not our personal preference. We accept it and will deal with it charitably without a grumpy face if we ever hear Gregorian chant in the Church. Perhaps it is more pleasant to listen to if you actually know the people who are singing it?
 
If the Church wants this kind of music played, they’re going to have to do a whole lot more educating of musicians in the Church, because I think a lot of people feel the way I do. They don’t understand this music and they don’t like it very much.
You are right in this. Most Catholics today have no real understanding of what the Liturgy really is – and that is of those who even bother to go to Mass. The other ~75% are completely ignorant. I think that the vast majority of American Catholics are going to be in for a very rude awakening in the coming decade when they will no longer be able to sit on the fence and wallow in tepid water – but that is for another thread.
 
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