Annullment with kids possible?

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mcd1976

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We are a Catholic family and my parents are very orthodox/conservative in their religious beliefs. One of the things that they will not accept is a non-Catholic spouse. My brother is courting a woman who is “Catholic” but is divorced with 2 kids. My brother believes that the church will not annul her first marriage because she had kids in the marriage. Also everyone who he has spoken to say that this woman’s ex-husband was the “bad guy” (verbally abusive, etc, no idea what else), but the ex-husband will not state this and so their marriage cannot be annulled.

My question is, is this true about annulment -
  1. You cannot have your marriage annulled if there are kids involved?
  2. Does some one have to be proven to be the abuser to get an annulment?
If they cannot get an annullment, would the church even bless such a wedding?

Thank you in advance.
 
Some understanding of what the Tribunal does and does not do is in order.

The Church Tribunal will if asked review to see if at the wedding a valid marriage was contracted. If they see there was no valid marriage, they issue a Decree of Nullity.

This woman would be advised to sit down with the Tribunal at her Diocese before she begins dating. She may be validly married, she may not be. She should not date until that is determined by the competent Tribunal.

A copy of Jimmy Akin’s or Ed Peter’s book on the process would be well advised for your entire family. Click the shop link here on this page to find good resources.
 
mcd1976 said:
We are a Catholic family and my parents are very orthodox/conservative in their religious beliefs. One of the things that they will not accept is a non-Catholic spouse. My brother is courting a woman who is “Catholic” but is divorced with 2 kids. My brother believes that the church will not annul her first marriage because she had kids in the marriage. Also everyone who he has spoken to say that this woman’s ex-husband was the “bad guy” (verbally abusive, etc, no idea what else), but the ex-husband will not state this and so their marriage cannot be annulled.

My question is, is this true about annulment -
  1. You cannot have your marriage annulled if there are kids involved?
False. The presence of children does NOT mean you can’t get a decree of nullity. Just because they had kids doesn’t mean their marriage was valid.
  1. Does some one have to be proven to be the abuser to get an annulment?
No. There are many reasons why a marriage might not be valid. Abuse may well never enter into it.

If they cannot get an annullment, would the church even bless such a wedding?

No, not if the circumstances remain exactly as you’ve outlined.

Thank you in advance.
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To add to what kage_ar said…

An “annulment” is not something granted like a divorce as if to say you were married for a while and now you are not. A ruling of nullity is retroactive back to when the wedding ceremony took place. Such a ruling states that the wedding ceremony did not result in a valid wedding. (It would still be civilly valid.)

In other words, a ruling of nullity is granted (or not) based on circumstances that existed at the time of the wedding. What happens afterward is only significant in that it is evidence of what the state of things were at the time of the wedding.

Abuse may or may not be a factor. Abuse in and of itself is not a reason for a ruling of nullity. But it often *is *a symptom of other problems that existed at the time of the wedding which would render the marriage invalid. It is these other problems that need to be investigated.

The fact that there are children is not usually significant to the validity or lack thereof of the marriage. Annulments are often granted when there are children. The children are not considered illegitimate because the marriage would still have been civilly valid even though it was never valid according to the laws of the Church.

In the particular case of this couple, the woman can contact her pastor and seek a ruling regarding the status of her marriage even if the man does not want to cooperate. It may make things more difficult but difficult does not mean impossible. She won’t know until she tries.
 
mcd1976 said:
We are a Catholic family and my parents are very orthodox/conservative in their religious beliefs. One of the things that they will not accept is a non-Catholic spouse. My brother is courting a woman who is “Catholic” but is divorced with 2 kids. My brother believes that the church will not annul her first marriage because she had kids in the marriage. Also everyone who he has spoken to say that this woman’s ex-husband was the “bad guy” (verbally abusive, etc, no idea what else), but the ex-husband will not state this and so their marriage cannot be annulled.

My question is, is this true about annulment -
  1. You cannot have your marriage annulled if there are kids involved?
  2. Does some one have to be proven to be the abuser to get an annulment?
If they cannot get an annullment, would the church even bless such a wedding?

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
My cousin just went through this and yes you can get an annulment if children are involved. Her husband was abusive and the annulment was granted. Just be prepared to pay several thousand dollars.
 
mcd1976 said:
We are a Catholic family and my parents are very orthodox/conservative in their religious beliefs. One of the things that they will not accept is a non-Catholic spouse. My brother is courting a woman who is “Catholic” but is divorced with 2 kids. My brother believes that the church will not annul her first marriage because she had kids in the marriage. Also everyone who he has spoken to say that this woman’s ex-husband was the “bad guy” (verbally abusive, etc, no idea what else), but the ex-husband will not state this and so their marriage cannot be annulled.

My question is, is this true about annulment -
  1. You cannot have your marriage annulled if there are kids involved?
  2. Does some one have to be proven to be the abuser to get an annulment?
If they cannot get an annullment, would the church even bless such a wedding?

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
  1. Children do not prohibit an Annulment process.
  2. No, an invalid Marriage has to be proven.
  3. No, no valid Marriage can take place without the original attempt at Marriage being found invalid.
 
NDfan said:
Just be prepared to pay several thousand dollars.
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Hi 🙂 This is my first post here. I felt compelled to register just so I could post in this thread. Aren’t you excited? LOL

Anyway – Cost varies from diocese to diocese. My dh received a declaration of nullity last year and we only had to pay a few hundred dollars. Of which, part or all, could have been waived in accordance with our financial situation.

Yes, I’m sure there are horror stories out there of priests or tribunals being difficult or not knowing what’s going on. But my dh’s was pretty straightforward. The most difficult thing was for him to relive that time of this life when he was away from the Church did things he was not proud of. He did have one child with from that marriage as well.

It took a little over 18 mos to complete. I was planning on two years, so that was a blessing. I was also waiting on this to finish so I could officially enter the church. Dec 13-08, baby! LOL

Feel free to pm or post more questions here if you want, I’ll try to be as helpful as I can 😃

Ali
 
Hi - Does your brother and his girlfriend truly believe that her former marriage was not valid and desire to pursue an annulment or are they being pressured into this by other people?
 
1.) You can obtain a Decree of Nullity regardless if children are involved.
2.) No. Just as adultery is not sufficient reason alone to declare a marriage invalid.

The Tribunal investigates, based on testimony from the petitioner, respondent, and witnesses, events prior to the marriage. They may also take into consideration events that happened during the marriage provided it verifies or attests to what they consider “lacking” to contract a valid marriage. However, the primary purpose is to investigate what happened prior to the marriage. In some cases the other party (in this case I’ll assume the ex-husband to be the respondent), will not participate in the process. This forces the Tribunal to look at only the testimony of the petitioner (your brother’s potential wife) and her witnesses. My ex-wife committed adultery, and we divorced. When I petitioned for a Decree of Nullity, my ex did not participate. I was still awarded an affirmative decision in the end. The Judicial Vicar (Tribunal Judge) told me if she had responded, and admitted to the adultery, my case might have gone through quicker.

Costs do vary, however in my Diocese, there is no fee. But I understand that is not common from what I’ve seen on these forums.

Below is a link to the Archdiocese of Mobile, which serves as our Appellate Court (I’m in the Jackson, MS Diocese). They have a decent FAQ on “annulments”. This may answer a few questions you may have before buying a book. However, everything starts with her petitioning the Tribunal either directly, or through her parish priest.

mobilearchdiocese.org/pages/mt_faq.cfm

If a Decree of Nullity is NOT issued, then she would not be free to marry in the Catholic Church. If they did get married, it would have to be outside the Church, and the Church would not recognize their marriage since she is still bound to her first marriage. Therefore, their marriage would be invalid, and they would not be able to receive the sacraments.

If I’ve misstated something, please let me know.

Let’s hope it does not come to that, but it is possible.

If you have more questions, I will too, be glad to answer if I can.
mcd1976 said:
  1. You cannot have your marriage annulled if there are kids involved?
  2. Does some one have to be proven to be the abuser to get an annulment?
If they cannot get an annullment, would the church even bless such a wedding?

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
 
Glad you brought that up, I had glossed over that earlier. And I know what you’re getting at (at least I think I do), whether or not it could be declared invalid by lack of form. I meant to add earlier in my post that she should talk to her priest, and he will determine the best course to pursue.
Just_Lurking said:
Did her first marriage take place in the Catholic Church?
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msugeotech said:
1.) You can obtain a Decree of Nullity regardless if children are involved.
2.) No. Just as adultery is not sufficient reason alone to declare a marriage invalid.

The Tribunal investigates, based on testimony from the petitioner, respondent, and witnesses, events prior to the marriage. They may also take into consideration events that happened during the marriage provided it verifies or attests to what they consider “lacking” to contract a valid marriage. However, the primary purpose is to investigate what happened prior to the marriage. In some cases the other party (in this case I’ll assume the ex-husband to be the respondent), will not participate in the process. This forces the Tribunal to look at only the testimony of the petitioner (your brother’s potential wife) and her witnesses. My ex-wife committed adultery, and we divorced. When I petitioned for a Decree of Nullity, my ex did not participate. I was still awarded an affirmative decision in the end. The Judicial Vicar (Tribunal Judge) told me if she had responded, and admitted to the adultery, my case might have gone through quicker.

Costs do vary, however in my Diocese, there is no fee. But I understand that is not common from what I’ve seen on these forums.

Below is a link to the Archdiocese of Mobile, which serves as our Appellate Court (I’m in the Jackson, MS Diocese). They have a decent FAQ on “annulments”. This may answer a few questions you may have before buying a book. However, everything starts with her petitioning the Tribunal either directly, or through her parish priest.

mobilearchdiocese.org/pages/mt_faq.cfm

If a Decree of Nullity is NOT issued, then she would not be free to marry in the Catholic Church. If they did get married, it would have to be outside the Church, and the Church would not recognize their marriage since she is still bound to her first marriage. Therefore, their marriage would be invalid, and they would not be able to receive the sacraments.

If I’ve misstated something, please let me know.

Let’s hope it does not come to that, but it is possible.

If you have more questions, I will too, be glad to answer if I can.
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Very well said! As an annulment advocate in my diocese I would like to add that the other party, the respondent, does not need to participate and the proceedings will still go forward. Many times I meet with parishioners that state their ex will refuse to let them have an annulment because there is still such bitter feelings. It doesn’t matter … the case will still go forward. The respondent must be notified that the process is taking place, meaning that a “good” address for the respondent must be given to the tribunal so they can notify the party in writing.
 
mcd1976 said:
We are a Catholic family and my parents are very orthodox/conservative in their religious beliefs. One of the things that they will not accept is a non-Catholic spouse. My brother is courting a woman who is “Catholic” but is divorced with 2 kids. My brother believes that the church will not annul her first marriage because she had kids in the marriage.e.
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your brother has been misinformed. the young lady (not he) must visit her priest and ask the questions that relate to her personal situation, as each marriage situation is unique. He may not date, much less become engaged to a person who is already married. What happens after the wedding is not the issue. The tribunal proceeding looks at circumstances that existed at the time of the contract to determine of all the conditions for validity, consent and capacity (like freedom to marry, conformity with Church law, free will, proper intention, among many aspects) were present at that time.

The existence of the children is neither here nor there, nor is their status affected by a decree of annulment, they do not become “illegitimate”.

When and if she receives a decree of nullity from her first marriage your brother can then consider whether or not to pursue a romantic relationship with her leading to marraige.

Since you express doubts as to her practice of the faith, it is quite likely that her first marriage is invalid to lack of form (commonly described as “not getting married in the Church”) so this may be a much simpler paperwork process, but she still has to get the ball rolling by having an in-person interview with her pastor, or the person he delegates. Now.

it does not cost “several thousand dollars” in any diocese in which I worked with couples. It costs what is reasonable given the amount of investigative and legal work involved–which is considerable–and far less than the average civil divorce, and most dioceses have arrangements for those who are truly in need financially.
 
My sister-in-law married a grandfather after they both go annulments of their first marriages.
 
NDfan said:
My cousin just went through this and yes you can get an annulment if children are involved. Her husband was abusive and the annulment was granted. Just be prepared to pay several thousand dollars.
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If your financial state does not permit of your paying a fee, or paying the requested amount, for an annulment, you can ask to have the whole fee, or part of it, waived on grounds of financial hardship. Or you can make an agreement to pay over an extended period if that would help.

Lack of money on your part can’t prevent you from going through the process of having the validity of the marriage determined. By the same token, the amount of paperwork and staff time required are similar to those for a secular divorce, and you wouldn’t expect a secular lawyer to work for you for free if you could afford his fees, would you? And for a divorce that took any time at all, ‘several thousand dollars’ would be about the expected cost, no?
 
I was appalled to learn from this thread that the other party’s testimony is not even considered or requested. From a pure justice perspective this is troubling to me personally. It makes it sound that if somone got 2 friends to testify and embellish the circumstances then it becomes possible to just forensically declare there was no marriage based on hearsay and subjective evidence that can not possibly be objective and lacking emotional embellishment…

Looking back over history I find it amazingly ironic that The Church rather than grant Henry VIII an anullment was willing to risk losing the entire Anglican Catholic Church over the matter yet today the Church is giving most everyone who asks an anullment. Or at least so it seems - anyone know the statistics on rejection percentages?

What happens to the other spouse if he or she loved their spouse and didn’t want a divorce/anullment? Do they not get any voice in the matter at all? Must an anullment FOLLOW a secular court divorce or is is SUBORDINATE to the secular courts (which seems profoundly ironic to put priority on secular courts before God). Does the OTHER spouse still retain an orphaned “married in the eyes of the church” status and have to go back and refile their own petition so they can get their own anullment and be free to marry again in the church? Are they left in “Limbo” when the petitioning spouse prevails and receives an anullment or does the Church issue TWO declarations of annulments - one for each spouse? I can just see it now - a person who actually did not want a divorce suddenly receives a letter in the mail that says “congratulations we just declared your marriage invalid before God and your kids appreciate you for your donation of DNA - good luck”. :rolleyes: Do the children get no voice in the church essentially declaring them bastards by fiat - even if they loved the parent declared invalid by fiat?

I have never had to deal with this circumstance but from an objective fairness perspective I AM NOT COMFORTABLE with the whole anullment game and think its for all but about 5% of the cases just a way to get out of one’s obligations and start over with a second chance (like confession almost). The whole entire concept of anullment is troubling to me since it seems to mean literally that the marriage was “invalid in fact” before God even before the ruling of nullity. How many Catholic couples are living as married couples HAPPILY but in fact are invalid due to an error in form or intention etc. but they are otherwise content? Where is the symmetry in all this? Why are we not asked to have marriage maintenance reviews from time to time to REQUIRE all married Catholics to VOLUNTARILY submit to a declaration of “VALIDITY” AFTER people are married every few years to prove “just in case” that the marriage is valid. Why is the court set up on a one-sided “hearsay” sort of justice and in a retrospective reactionary sort of way rather than peremptory BEFORE THE MARRIAGE IS EVEN GRANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE???

I am NOT comfortable with the entire anullment system and think it needs to be rethought out.
James
 
I was appalled to learn from this thread that the other party’s testimony is not even considered or requested
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Where did you get this idea from? The other spouse is invited to give testimony. If after a reasonable amount of time they refuse then there is no reason to hold up the request any further. Sometimes multiple attempts are made to contact them. Very often these spouses who are refusing to cooperate are already moved on and in other “marriages”. Sometimes so much time has passed that they cannot be found. This is still not a reason if there are witness to refuse to hear the case. Loving someone doesn’t make a marriage valid or invalid and children are not declared bastards which is a legal term. Most children can not have a say in the matter because they are usually not present at the time of the marriage. However some are able to give witness testimony to some details that occur later that might show evidence for a claim.
Perhaps you should do some reading on the matter. You might get more comfortable if you actually understood it. But frankly I don’t think anyone should be real comfortable with it as we want to strive for a better record of informed educated valid marriages within the church. This starts with parents who do a poor job of example and also of teaching of marriage.
 
CentralFLJames said:
I was appalled to learn from this thread that the other party’s testimony is not even considered or requested.

That’s not what was said. If the other party cannot be contacted or has no wish to participate, the petition will still be heard. But a true attempt to contact the respondent will be made.

Even after the decree is granted, the respondent can appeal it to the ROTA and it can be reversed. That has happened in a very public way in recent years when the decree of nullity was revoked in the case of Joseph Kennedy.

What happens to the other spouse if he or she loved their spouse and didn’t want a divorce/anullment? Do they not get any voice in the matter at all?

They are invited to respond and give their side of the story and provide their own witnesses.

Must an anullment FOLLOW a secular court divorce or is is SUBORDINATE to the secular courts (which seems profoundly ironic to put priority on secular courts before God).
In most cases a divorce must already have been granted. That shows that the marriage has truly broken down.

Does the OTHER spouse still retain an orphaned “married in the eyes of the church” status and have to go back and refile their own petition so they can get their own anullment and be free to marry again in the church?

Of course not, if the marriage was invalid it was invalid. The decree is sent to both parties if the respondent’s location is known.

Are they left in “Limbo” when the petitioning spouse prevails and receives an anullment or does the Church issue TWO declarations of annulments - one for each spouse?

There is ONE decree of which many copies are made since copies of the decree are sent to the two parties, to the baptismal parish of both parties as well as to the marrying parish if they didn’t get married where one of them was baptized.

The I can just see it now - a person who actually did not want a divorce suddenly receives a letter in the mail that says “congratulations we just declared your marriage invalid before God and your kids appreciate you for your donation of DNA - good luck”. :rolleyes: Do the children get no voice in the church essentially declaring them bastards by fiat - even if they loved the parent declared invalid by fiat?

The children are not ‘essentially declared bastard by fiat’. Any child born of a putative marriage, IOW, one that was presumed valid, are legitimate.

I have never had to deal with this circumstance but from an objective fairness perspective I AM NOT COMFORTABLE with the whole anullment game and think its for all but about 5% of the cases just a way to get out of one’s obligations and start over with a second chance (like confession almost). The whole entire concept of anullment is troubling to me since it seems to mean literally that the marriage was “invalid in fact” before God even before the ruling of nullity. How many Catholic couples are living as married couples HAPPILY but in fact are invalid due to an error in form or intention etc. but they are otherwise content?

Probably many: those who spoke their vows with no intention of having children, those who married without intending to be faithful and those who married thinking 'Well, if it doesn’t work out I’ll just get a divorce.

Where is the symmetry in all this? Why are we not asked to have marriage maintenance reviews from time to time to REQUIRE all married Catholics to VOLUNTARILY submit to a declaration of “VALIDITY” AFTER people are married every few years to prove “just in case” that the marriage is valid. Why is the court set up on a one-sided “hearsay” sort of justice and in a retrospective reactionary sort of way rather than peremptory BEFORE THE MARRIAGE IS EVEN GRANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE???

The Church does attempt to ensure the validity of each marriage before it occurs by asking the various questions of the spouses that ensure validity. But how many people do you know are going to sit at the pre-nuptial interview and reply “No” to the questions about having children, being faithful and marriage being for life when they know that a negative answer will mean ‘no marriage ceremony for you’?

I am NOT comfortable with the entire anullment system and think it needs to be rethought out.

James
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mcd1976 said:
We are a Catholic family and my parents are very orthodox/conservative in their religious beliefs. One of the things that they will not accept is a non-Catholic spouse. My brother is courting a woman who is “Catholic” but is divorced with 2 kids. My brother believes that the church will not annul her first marriage because she had kids in the marriage. Also everyone who he has spoken to say that this woman’s ex-husband was the “bad guy” (verbally abusive, etc, no idea what else), but the ex-husband will not state this and so their marriage cannot be annulled.

My question is, is this true about annulment -
  1. You cannot have your marriage annulled if there are kids involved?
  2. Does some one have to be proven to be the abuser to get an annulment?
If they cannot get an annullment, would the church even bless such a wedding?

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
I am in exactly the same situation as this woman, divorced, two kids, abusive husband but more emotional and mental then physical, but I am not dating. I am going through the annulment process. My ex probably won’t be willing to be a witness, and in his head, he didn’t do anything wrong at all, but it doesn’t matter. The chance will be given to him to be a witness, but as long as I have witness testimonies and mine, the process will still proceed and I will be advised of the outcome.
 
Does anyone have a link to Annulment statistics or have info? I am curious now about how many cases are submitted per year, how many are approved, how many rejected?

I have taken some abuse over the years from Protestants who claim that Catholic annulments are all about money and that’s all it really takes. I tell them that the costs for the research and getting witness statements is just a reimbursement essentially for all the time required. But it would be nice to point to numbers that show that a large percentage of them are turned down. Of course such numbers will NOT show how many never filed for anullment because of pre-screening before the process was started under advise it would never be granted without legitimate cause. Nonetheless it would be good to actually know the statistics of those cases that are submitted for formal consideration.

James
 
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