Annulment: A LoopHole for "No Divorce"?

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Do, some here think that the standards need to be changed. Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. Just because social norms of the US are not in conformity with the laws of God concerning the sacraments does not mean that it is the responsibility of the Church to turn a blind eye to the authenticity or inauthenticity of a Sacrament.

Are we forgetting that Matrimony is Sacrament governed by certain rules and if those rules are not fulfilled then there is no Sacrament.

It is no different than if a priest does not say “This is my Body” or he does not say “I absolve you from your sins …”.

It is not the fault of the Church or the tribunals that so many catholic unions (I don’t want to call them marriages because theya re not) are not valid marriages. Rather it is the fault of lay people not following the laws that God has established. So, instead of criticizing the Church I think better energy would be spent in fraternal correction of your fellow brothers.
 
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mosher:
It is not the fault of the Church or the tribunals that so many catholic unions (I don’t want to call them marriages because theya re not) are not valid marriages.
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I do not agree for two reasons:
  1. The tribunals have watered down the reasons for annulment so that just about any marriage can be annulled.
  2. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, it is the priest who performs the Sacrament of marriage. If the RCC were concerned about the attack on the indissolubility of marriage, or on the integrity of the Sacrament of marriage by the present situation, why would it not adopt the Eastern Orthodox practice?
 
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stanley123:
  1. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, it is the priest who performs the Sacrament of marriage. If the RCC were concerned about the attack on the indissolubility of marriage, or on the integrity of the Sacrament of marriage by the present situation, why would it not adopt the Eastern Orthodox practice?
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“In the [Catholic] Eastern liturgies the minister of this sacrament (which is called “Crowning”) is the priest or bishop who, after receiving the mutual consent of the spouses, successively crowns the bridegroom and the bride as a sign of the marriage covenant.” (CCC, 1623)
 
Sarah Jane said:
"In the [Catholic]
Eastern liturgies the minister of this sacrament (which is called “Crowning”) is the priest or bishop …(CCC, 1623)
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Right. Since this is the norm in the Eastern Churches (Catholic or Orthodox), why not adopt it in the Western RCC?
 
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stanley123:
Right. Since this is the norm in the Eastern Churches (Catholic or Orthodox), why not adopt it in the Western RCC?
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It is not our tradition.
 
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stanley123:
I do not agree for two reasons:
  1. The tribunals have watered down the reasons for annulment so that just about any marriage can be annulled.
  2. In the Eastern Orthodox Church, it is the priest who performs the Sacrament of marriage. If the RCC were concerned about the attack on the indissolubility of marriage, or on the integrity of the Sacrament of marriage by the present situation, why would it not adopt the Eastern Orthodox practice?
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  1. The primary reasons why a decree of nullity is given in a case are:
a) lack of form
b) not being open to life

It doesn’t take a sociologist to understand why so many so called “marriages” are able to receive annulments.
  1. The Orthodox Churches would have the exact same problem because the requirements to make a sacrament are the same essentially. That is why we recognize eachothers sacraments as being valid.
 
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mosher:
…
It is not the fault of the Church or the tribunals that so many catholic unions (I don’t want to call them marriages because theya re not) are not valid marriages. Rather it is the fault of lay people not following the laws that God has established. So, instead of criticizing the Church I think better energy would be spent in fraternal correction of your fellow brothers.
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Maybe so, but this is an American problem, not a worldwide one. In most (all?) other countries, annulments have to go through the Vatican, and very few are granted. In America, The USCCB was granted permission from the Vatican to decide on annulments, and American annulments far outnumber the rest of the world.

Are Americans complete failures or does the problem have something to do with granting America local jursidiction for annulments?
 
Look around … our culture is so anti-life and anti-commitment that it is obscene. Sexual addictions are rampant and the use of Contraceptives are a norm. Most Americans plan on limiting their children to a specific number or they do not plan to stay faithful or do advanced planning for a divorce. We live in a culture that is about self gratification not about gift and what is required for this sacrament to be valid is mutual self gift and mutual self love.

It is indeed a problem with American culture. I have heard discussion (as I think I mentioned earlier) that some theologians in the Vatican question if it is possible for the average catholic American to enter into the Sacrament of Matrimony. Between priests not teaching what they must to the couple to bad marriage prep to bat raising to too much influence from Protestant conceptions of marriage there are many things that the catholic must dodge in American culture to be sure of having a valid marriage.
 
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mosher:
Look around.
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I am looking around. According to one poster, more than 95% of those getting “married” in the RCC are planning to use ABC. The other 5% can most likely claim one of the defects mentioned above. Wht is the conclusion? It is that just about any marriage can be annulled. In other words, yes, annulment is a Loophole for “no divorce”. It looks like Catholic theologians have figured out a way to save face on the dogma of indissolubility of marriage by introducing the novel concept of easy to obtain annulments.
 
I personally need the tribunal to look into my marriage - at least to get status over my marriage - I left the catholic church 7 years ago, got married at the time to a divorced orthodox Jew, which a few months after the marriage turned out something totally different than before, to make three long miserable years short, it will be good to know for me, if I will be bound by this marriage forever, with 26 it would be a hit in the face.
You try the best but if guys hide their real intentions, you are sometimes bound sometimes not.
But it is true if I read the necessities for a real marriage after catholic standards, I mean, whose is? You are right, as I got married, I was on ABC (after halacha there was no inherent problem with it) already, my husband never wanted me to stop, a few months after marriage, he ssof if you get pregnant, abortion or divorce you can chose. Lots of ugly stuff happened in our marriage years and I just hope that this won’t be the only “marriage” I was destined to have.

brigitte
 
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stanley123:
I am looking around. According to one poster, more than 95% of those getting “married” in the RCC are planning to use ABC. The other 5% can most likely claim one of the defects mentioned above. Wht is the conclusion? It is that just about any marriage can be annulled. In other words, yes, annulment is a Loophole for “no divorce”. It looks like Catholic theologians have figured out a way to save face on the dogma of indissolubility of marriage by introducing the novel concept of easy to obtain annulments.
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You really are missing the point. It has nothing to do with theologians. It has everything to do with the rules that God has given.

You also missed that the list of the above mentioned “defects” from that book are only indicators of a possible problem. This is why the sacrament is innocent until proven guilty per se.
 
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teresa613:
I personally need the tribunal to look into my marriage - at least to get status over my marriage - I left the catholic church 7 years ago, got married at the time to a divorced orthodox Jew, which a few months after the marriage turned out something totally different than before, to make three long miserable years short, it will be good to know for me, if I will be bound by this marriage forever, with 26 it would be a hit in the face.
You try the best but if guys hide their real intentions, you are sometimes bound sometimes not.
But it is true if I read the necessities for a real marriage after catholic standards, I mean, whose is? You are right, as I got married, I was on ABC (after halacha there was no inherent problem with it) already, my husband never wanted me to stop, a few months after marriage, he ssof if you get pregnant, abortion or divorce you can chose. Lots of ugly stuff happened in our marriage years and I just hope that this won’t be the only “marriage” I was destined to have.

brigitte
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Yes have a tribunal look at it and I am sure that it is not Sacramental because he was not a baptised Christian.
 
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teresa613:
I personally need the tribunal to look into my marriage - at least to get status over my marriage - I left the catholic church 7 years ago, got married at the time to a divorced orthodox Jew, which a few months after the marriage turned out something totally different than before, to make three long miserable years short, it will be good to know for me, if I will be bound by this marriage forever, with 26 it would be a hit in the face.
You try the best but if guys hide their real intentions, you are sometimes bound sometimes not.
But it is true if I read the necessities for a real marriage after catholic standards, I mean, whose is? You are right, as I got married, I was on ABC (after halacha there was no inherent problem with it) already, my husband never wanted me to stop, a few months after marriage, he ssof if you get pregnant, abortion or divorce you can chose. Lots of ugly stuff happened in our marriage years and I just hope that this won’t be the only “marriage” I was destined to have.

brigitte
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The tribunal only needs to look into your marriage if it was a Catholic ceremony.

Your orthodox jewish ex-husband married you in a Catholic church?

You say you were non-practicing for 7 years.

If the ceremony was not a Catholic one, you’ve basically been guilty of adultery and that can be remedied with confession - and a sincere intent to return to Catholicism fully, of course. But basically, the Catholic church doesn’t recognize marriages outside the faith anyway. You were the baptized member…your ex-husband was not…so you are the one bound by Catholic law.

Even baptized Catholics who divorce are still welcomed in the Church if the baptized party was not the one who initiated the divorce and has not had intimate relations with any other partner. That person is still living according to the vows taken - until death do them part. It’s the one who gets into another intimate relationship who are ineligible for confession and the eucharist for adultery.
 
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mosher:
Look around … our culture is so anti-life and anti-commitment that it is obscene. Sexual addictions are rampant and the use of Contraceptives are a norm. Most Americans plan on limiting their children to a specific number or they do not plan to stay faithful or do advanced planning for a divorce. We live in a culture that is about self gratification not about gift and what is required for this sacrament to be valid is mutual self gift and mutual self love.

It is indeed a problem with American culture. I have heard discussion (as I think I mentioned earlier) that some theologians in the Vatican question if it is possible for the average catholic American to enter into the Sacrament of Matrimony. Between priests not teaching what they must to the couple to bad marriage prep to bat raising to too much influence from Protestant conceptions of marriage there are many things that the catholic must dodge in American culture to be sure of having a valid marriage.
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I think the large number of annulments may be driven by both the culture and the special rules given to America.Europe has the same (and far worse) issues than America, but I do not think they are granted the authority to perform their own annulments.

www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
 
Your orthodox jewish ex-husband married you in a Catholic church?

We were married in synagogue but as I converted to Judaism 3 months before, the marriage would considered valid, if it were his first marriage.

I have a lot of other issues I have to solve before I can return fully to the Catholic Church, and a divorce is tough enough without finding a priest understanding my situation.

I just posted this case to show that sometimes annulment is not only a way out of a marriage. Sometimes things happen in life which make a marriage invalid. And really serious grounds, a friend of mine’s marriage was annulled due to the fact that he hid his impotency before the marriage etc.

But I agree, sometimes I think one should make it harder to get married, not to divorce. It is time that people know what marriage is about. And it is not easy in our times.
 
**Reasons for annulment listed in Judging Invalidity ©2002, By Fr. Lawrence G. Wrenn
Working out a couple of hours a day in the gym.

I can declare before one and all that I am EXCELLENT CATHOLIC MARRIAGE MATERIAL…😛
 
teresa613 said:
Your orthodox jewish ex-husband married you in a Catholic church?

We were married in synagogue but as I converted to Judaism 3 months before, the marriage would considered valid, if it were his first marriage.

So that means it was a valid 'Jewish" marriage for the both of you.
Then doesn’t that require Jewish consideration as to your status in the Jewish faith?

I have a lot of other issues I have to solve before I can return fully to the Catholic Church, and a divorce is tough enough without finding a priest understanding my situation.

It may not hurt, though, to get a rough idea of what the Church position would be on your situation, especially since you were married in a jewish ceremony. I don’t know, but I would think it would still be considered like any other civil ceremony and therefore just a sin of adultery. But just because you converted to Judaism doesn’t mean your Catholic baptism is invalid so you’re still Catholic in the eyes of the Church.

By the way, I’m sorry about the divorce and the toll it’s taking on you. Please let us help you through some of those other issues when you’re ready (if you aren’t ready to see a priest about it, that is).

I just posted this case to show that sometimes annulment is not only a way out of a marriage. Sometimes things happen in life which make a marriage invalid. And really serious grounds, a friend of mine’s marriage was annulled due to the fact that he hid his impotency before the marriage etc.

Annulment is declaring a marriage invalid. It isn’t a ‘way out’ of marriage. Any annulment granted is based on serious grounds, though the poster who started this thread is trying to indicate otherwise.

But I agree, sometimes I think one should make it harder to get married, not to divorce. It is time that people know what marriage is about. And it is not easy in our times.

Yep.
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mosher:
It has nothing to do with theologians.
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I would disagree with this. Isn’t there a big difference in the rules in effect today as compared with those in effect in 1930? Haven’t these rules been weakened and watered down to such an extent that just about anyone can get an annulment which is a declaration that the marriage is null and void?
Consider these figures:
1930 - in the USA about 10 or so annulments granted per year in the USA.
TODAY - it is running at about 40,000 to 50,000 or so annulments granted per year in the USA?
In the face of these figures, can anyone seriously say that nothing has changed from the rules as they were in effect in 1930 as compared to what the rules are today???
 
From recently having gone through a diocesan marriage prep weekend, I am not surprised that a lot of Catholic weddings end up before the annulment tribunal. Not that the marriage prep was bad or anything. But you get out of it what you put into it. A lot of couples there basically saw it as a hoop to jump through, a box to check off on their list of things to do, along with finding tuxedos and choosing a cake. No interest in actually putting any thought into it, or learning anything from it. Some couples saw it as an affront that the men and women were given separate bedrooms on separate floors, and were sneaking around late at night to visit each other. Many of these couples were living together already. You get the feeling that Church teaching plays very little role in anything they do. They may be using the church for their wedding to please their parents, or because they’ve always dreamed of having a big church wedding. But when it comes down to it, the Church means very little to them. I also know that people will outright lie to priests during their pre-marital counseling - “no, we aren’t living together”, “yes, we fully embrace the church’s teaching on contraception”. So many people are just trying to use the church for one reason or another.

Oh, and regarding some of the reasons given for annulment - I’m sure you have to look at the context. Is someone spending 2 hours in the gym, so they can get out of the house, and avoid spending time with the family, or because they are seriously obsessed with their appearance? It could indicate some psychological issue, although of course not always. Also with a personal savings account - probably what they are looking for is, are you hiding money away from your spouse, keeping secrets, or otherwise not fully merging your finances with each other, because you have it in mind that this might not work out and you want to plan for that eventuality, or maybe you still think in terms of “my money” and “her money”, which would be indicative of the wrong attitude toward marriage.
 
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