Annulment And Misinformation

[AmyMarie71]

I have posted many times on this subject and unfortunately cannot find one of my posts to add-on. I will not get into detail like before but just give you some information.

I am 36 (soon to be 37), female, never married, no kids, catholic. My significant other is 38, male, divorced 3 years, no kids, catholic.

He is in the middle of an annulment and the more we hear from the tribunal, the more we get disgusted. Why? The misinformation is unbelievable and their story changes from one letter of correspondence to another. His ex-wife has chosen not to contribute to the process. The misinformation that is being given is that he was told during his interview process (which is taped) that if he could not find witnesses to not worry, that his ‘character’ witnesses would have to do. A most recent letter form the Msgr. who is taking care of his case stated that his case without witnesses would not go through and a decree of nullity would be almost impossible. I would like to know then HOW DO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DIVORCED FOR 15-20 YEARS THEN DECIDE TO GET AN ANNULMENT WITH NO WITNESSES DUE TO DEATH OR THEY CANNOT BE FOUND CAN GET A DECREE OF NULLITY? I’m sorry but it is pathetic. My significant others family has been at odds with each other for years and they are the only one’s who could be witnesses. The Msgr. did say that he sent questionnaires to his family and basically it is a waiting game now. He highly doubts his family will help.

A friend of my significant other told him that it took him 2 years to get an annulment BUT he stopped practicing DURING the annulment procedures due to disgust. He got married outside the church and when he finally received his decree of nullity both himself and his wife went to talk to the priest. Apparently the priest helped them find their way home and they will be married in the eyes of God in the church this winter.

If we continue to get such misinformation with the rules changing everytime a correspondence is received, the I guess an alternative for us would be the same as the couple above. I, personally, have been non-practicing since my 20’s. I have been trying to find a way back to the church with the help of my significant other but this whole process is making me think twice as well as turning him off as well.

How many couples do you think there are who get so disgusted just throw up their hands andleave the church? How many people do you think or do you know that just ended up getting married outside the church and then once get a decree of nullity go back to the church to continue? Probably more than we woud like to admit!

 

[puzzleannie]

I
How many couples do you think there are who get so disgusted just throw up their hands andleave the church? How many people do you think or do you know that just ended up getting married outside the church and then once get a decree of nullity go back to the church to continue? Probably more than we woud like to admit!

probably many

just as there are many who have paid the price of the tragedy of divorce, and of the circumstances that lead to divorce.

yes these are human tragedies, yes people suffer, in this as in many other ways, in part from the result of their own choices and actions, in part because of the choices and actions of others. that is the reality of life on this planet

to reject one’s faith because of this or any other circumstance reveals only that one had no faith to begin with, that the sacraments and unity with Christ and his Church have no value to that person who rejects them. Faith is only true faith when it withstands these hard times and hard demands. A faith that is practiced only when things go our way is no faith at all. One can only pray that in this as in all the other setbacks of life, such persons allow God to work in their lives to bring them closer to Him. If they reject the possibility, then, they also reject His grace.

repeat, repeat, repeat

an annulment investigation looks at conditions that existed at the time of the marriage, and the only facts it can find are those that witnesses reveal. just like any other legal investigation. the tribunal cannot make up facts out of the air, and to expect it is unreasonable, arrogant and incredibly selfish. There are NO guarantees in this process.

repeat, repeat, repeat, a person who has obtained a civil divorce is still validly married until proven otherwise, and one enters into a romantic relationship with such a person at one’s peril, and should be prepared for disappointment.

 

[AmyMarie71]

probably many

just as there are many who have paid the price of the tragedy of divorce, and of the circumstances that lead to divorce.

yes these are human tragedies, yes people suffer, in this as in many other ways, in part from the result of their own choices and actions, in part because of the choices and actions of others. that is the reality of life on this planet

to reject one’s faith because of this or any other circumstance reveals only that one had no faith to begin with, that the sacraments and unity with Christ and his Church have no value to that person who rejects them. Faith is only true faith when it withstands these hard times and hard demands. A faith that is practiced only when things go our way is no faith at all. One can only pray that in this as in all the other setbacks of life, such persons allow God to work in their lives to bring them closer to Him. If they reject the possibility, then, they also reject His grace.

repeat, repeat, repeat

an annulment investigation looks at conditions that existed at the time of the marriage, and the only facts it can find are those that witnesses reveal. just like any other legal investigation. the tribunal cannot make up facts out of the air, and to expect it is unreasonable, arrogant and incredibly selfish. There are NO guarantees in this process.

repeat, repeat, repeat, a person who has obtained a civil divorce is still validly married until proven otherwise, and one enters into a romantic relationship with such a person at one’s peril, and should be prepared for disappointment.

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut but did not need a lecture on how the annulment process works. I fully understand it and that is why the constant misinformation from this tribunal is pathetic and does not match up. This is where the lack of faith lies. Not with the Lord per-se’, but with his chosen servants (priests, bishops, Msgr’s, etc) who are HUMAN like all of us other sinners who in this process have misinformed my significant other and his feelings are valid. He is to pay the price of possibly not getting awarded a decree due to his family not wanting to participate? He is also to pay the price due to him being discreet with his past marriage problems and not sharing them with friends so he is limited to his choice of witnesses? Again, pathetic.

You quoted: an annulment investigation looks at conditions that existed at the time of the marriage, and the only facts it can find are those that witnesses reveal. just like any other legal investigation. the tribunal cannot make up facts out of the air,

Now you are misinforming…why you may ask? Because like I stated in my original post, how then can people who have been divorced for 15-20 years with no witnesses due to them being deceased or they cannot be located then get a decree of nullity? I see that you did not comment on that.

 

[puzzleannie]

yes, as I stated, in this or any other legal investigation, if it is hard or impossible to locate witnesses, or if the witnesses don’t cooperate, yes it will be difficult or impossible to gather enough evidence to make an informed judgement. That is a fact of life. To point it out is not to lecture, it is simply to state an obvious fact. That is why there is no guarantees in this process, why some cases are decided negatively, and why it is unwise to proceed as if the results are a given.

Quite frankly, the misinformation issue is not yours, as you are not a party to this investigation. The priest who guides the parties in initiating the process is not an expert, which is why he refers them to the tribunal in the first place. He can give his opinion, based on his experience, but he cannot say for certain what the scenario will be.

Since in the limited number of cases in which I have played a minor part in getting the ball rolling, it has ALWAYS come to pass that info given at the initial interview has proven to be inadequate, incomplete, or just plain wrong, it would be foolish to base hopes on what someone told the party after that initial interview.

 

[Corki]

You quoted: an annulment investigation looks at conditions that existed at the time of the marriage, and the only facts it can find are those that witnesses reveal. just like any other legal investigation. the tribunal cannot make up facts out of the air,

Now you are misinforming…why you may ask? Because like I stated in my original post, how then can people who have been divorced for 15-20 years with no witnesses due to them being deceased or they cannot be located then get a decree of nullity? I see that you did not comment on that.

I am sorry you and your friend are going through this. However, you are making it sound like a decree of nullity is something he is owed or entitled to and is somehow being unfairly denied.

The presumption is that the marriage is valid. In order for a tribunal to overcome that presumption, they have to be convinced that that presumption is not true. This is because, as you state, the members of the tribunal are human. You seem to want them to start from a position of invalidity and stick with that as long as nothing is found to contradict that idea. If no witnesses or other proof are found, the marriage is still valid. Divorce does not automatically point to an invallid marriage - only a failed one.

I know this is very stressful for you. I can’t even imagine the stress this puts on your relationship with your friend and your faith. I hope you find peace and a resolution soon.

 

[maggiemay2u]

I have posted many times on this subject and unfortunately cannot find one of my posts to add-on. I will not get into detail like before but just give you some information.

I am 36 (soon to be 37), female, never married, no kids, catholic. My significant other is 38, male, divorced 3 years, no kids, catholic.

He is in the middle of an annulment and the more we hear from the tribunal, the more we get disgusted. Why? The misinformation is unbelievable and their story changes from one letter of correspondence to another. His ex-wife has chosen not to contribute to the process. The misinformation that is being given is that he was told during his interview process (which is taped) that if he could not find witnesses to not worry, that his ‘character’ witnesses would have to do. A most recent letter form the Msgr. who is taking care of his case stated that his case without witnesses would not go through and a decree of nullity would be almost impossible. I would like to know then HOW DO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DIVORCED FOR 15-20 YEARS THEN DECIDE TO GET AN ANNULMENT WITH NO WITNESSES DUE TO DEATH OR THEY CANNOT BE FOUND CAN GET A DECREE OF NULLITY? I’m sorry but it is pathetic. My significant others family has been at odds with each other for years and they are the only one’s who could be witnesses. The Msgr. did say that he sent questionnaires to his family and basically it is a waiting game now. He highly doubts his family will help.

A friend of my significant other told him that it took him 2 years to get an annulment BUT he stopped practicing DURING the annulment procedures due to disgust. He got married outside the church and when he finally received his decree of nullity both himself and his wife went to talk to the priest. Apparently the priest helped them find their way home and they will be married in the eyes of God in the church this winter.

If we continue to get such misinformation with the rules changing everytime a correspondence is received, the I guess an alternative for us would be the same as the couple above. I, personally, have been non-practicing since my 20’s. I have been trying to find a way back to the church with the help of my significant other but this whole process is making me think twice as well as turning him off as well.

How many couples do you think there are who get so disgusted just throw up their hands andleave the church? How many people do you think or do you know that just ended up getting married outside the church and then once get a decree of nullity go back to the church to continue? Probably more than we woud like to admit!

Perhaps the answer lies in the information received. If questions were raised in letters provided by available witnesses that weren’t resolved in your friend’s documents, then additional independent information may required. If that cannot be attained, then resolution may not be possible.

You ask how many couples just throw up their hands and leave. I can’t help but wonder how many had valid marriages to begin with and are disgusted that the church won’t simply go along with a religious divorce. Or how many divorced couples jointly fabricate grounds to facilitate their respective remarriages. I’m not implying this is your case, but in fairness to the Tribunal, they must see a lot of fraud.

As I recall. the Holy See was none to pleased with the fast track annulments that had mushroomed in the US. Perhaps your Tribunal is simply adhering to the rule of Rome.

Good luck and God’s peace.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I have posted many times on this subject and unfortunately cannot find one of my posts to add-on. I will not get into detail like before but just give you some information.

I am 36 (soon to be 37), female, never married, no kids, catholic. My significant other is 38, male, divorced 3 years, no kids, catholic.

He is in the middle of an annulment and the more we hear from the tribunal, the more we get disgusted. Why? The misinformation is unbelievable and their story changes from one letter of correspondence to another. His ex-wife has chosen not to contribute to the process. The misinformation that is being given is that he was told during his interview process (which is taped) that if he could not find witnesses to not worry, that his ‘character’ witnesses would have to do. A most recent letter form the Msgr. who is taking care of his case stated that his case without witnesses would not go through and a decree of nullity would be almost impossible. I would like to know then HOW DO PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN DIVORCED FOR 15-20 YEARS THEN DECIDE TO GET AN ANNULMENT WITH NO WITNESSES DUE TO DEATH OR THEY CANNOT BE FOUND CAN GET A DECREE OF NULLITY? I’m sorry but it is pathetic. My significant others family has been at odds with each other for years and they are the only one’s who could be witnesses. The Msgr. did say that he sent questionnaires to his family and basically it is a waiting game now. He highly doubts his family will help.

A friend of my significant other told him that it took him 2 years to get an annulment BUT he stopped practicing DURING the annulment procedures due to disgust. He got married outside the church and when he finally received his decree of nullity both himself and his wife went to talk to the priest. Apparently the priest helped them find their way home and they will be married in the eyes of God in the church this winter.

If we continue to get such misinformation with the rules changing everytime a correspondence is received, the I guess an alternative for us would be the same as the couple above. I, personally, have been non-practicing since my 20’s. I have been trying to find a way back to the church with the help of my significant other but this whole process is making me think twice as well as turning him off as well.

How many couples do you think there are who get so disgusted just throw up their hands andleave the church? How many people do you think or do you know that just ended up getting married outside the church and then once get a decree of nullity go back to the church to continue? Probably more than we woud like to admit!

I assume that he is speaking with his pastor about the tribunal letters and his frustration with the process.

There are many people who get frustrated with the process to undo many years of mistakes they made and simply enter into an adulterous relationship, I know a few who died in that situation. Probably not a good position to be in!

 

[Jolly_Joe]

I would note that there needs to be some proof given. If it is only his word, then that’s all there is, and character witnesses can help strengthen his case.

But it puts them into a very difficult situation to rightly judge.

Basically the stronger a case you have, the easier it goes, not to say it is easy, just easier.

If, you or others entered this process with the attitude that is anything other than the willingness to submit to the rulings of the Church, then, in very important ways, you’ve already left the Catholic Church.

Frankly, if the ruling comes down against annulment, you should be willing to live by that. You don’t marry him. If it’s anything other than that, you’re really already outside the Catholic Church.

Even being granted an annulment really wouldn’t change that rebellion you are in. It is not that you will be Catholic as long as the Church agrees with you and let’s you do what you want.

I really think you need to do some counseling with your priest about your attitude. Unless you are willing to submit, there’s a big problem.

JJ

 

[AmyMarie71]

I would note that there needs to be some proof given. If it is only his word, then that’s all there is, and character witnesses can help strengthen his case.

What you quoted above is what I have heard from many. This is exactly what the tribunal interviewer told him and then, to his surprise, the Msgr. who has his case wrote him a letter telling him something totally different (re: unless there are witnesses his case cannot move forward and a decree of nullity is highly unlikely). This was stated AFTER the Msgr. told him his case would be determined not under one, not under two but under THREE Cannon Laws? Now that I have gotten a little more into detail maybe now you can understand the frustration?

He has proof regarding the fraud part and how certain circumstances he was unaware of BEFORE they got married did, in fact, affect their conjugal life/relationship. She had a criminal record which she concealed. Public record at the court house shows that it occurred BEFORE they were married and it then continued into their marriage. Again, how can this help out if they are still looking for witnesses? They then need a witness to show that he, in fact, did NOT know she was a criminal BEFORE and AT THE TIME they were married.

Not everyone shares such marrital problems with the public. Whether it be family or close friends. And like I said previously, he is to be denied even a chance of his case being heard and moving forward because of the choice of others? The choice of others to NOT want to be a witness? That seems unfair, for he has no control over them.

 

[thistle]

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut but did not need a lecture on how the annulment process works. I fully understand it and that is why the constant misinformation from this tribunal is pathetic and does not match up. This is where the lack of faith lies. Not with the Lord per-se’, but with his chosen servants (priests, bishops, Msgr’s, etc) who are HUMAN like all of us other sinners who in this process have misinformed my significant other and his feelings are valid. He is to pay the price of possibly not getting awarded a decree due to his family not wanting to participate? He is also to pay the price due to him being discreet with his past marriage problems and not sharing them with friends so he is limited to his choice of witnesses? Again, pathetic.

You quoted: an annulment investigation looks at conditions that existed at the time of the marriage, and the only facts it can find are those that witnesses reveal. just like any other legal investigation. the tribunal cannot make up facts out of the air,

Now you are misinforming…why you may ask? Because like I stated in my original post, how then can people who have been divorced for 15-20 years with no witnesses due to them being deceased or they cannot be located then get a decree of nullity? I see that you did not comment on that. :confused:

You do what my wife and I agreed to do (and really do) and that is live a life of continence.

 

[thistle]

I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut but did not need a lecture on how the annulment process works. I fully understand it and that is why the constant misinformation from this tribunal is pathetic and does not match up. This is where the lack of faith lies. Not with the Lord per-se’, but with his chosen servants (priests, bishops, Msgr’s, etc) who are HUMAN like all of us other sinners who in this process have misinformed my significant other and his feelings are valid. He is to pay the price of possibly not getting awarded a decree due to his family not wanting to participate? He is also to pay the price due to him being discreet with his past marriage problems and not sharing them with friends so he is limited to his choice of witnesses? Again, pathetic.

You quoted: an annulment investigation looks at conditions that existed at the time of the marriage, and the only facts it can find are those that witnesses reveal. just like any other legal investigation. the tribunal cannot make up facts out of the air,

Now you are misinforming…why you may ask? Because like I stated in my original post, how then can people who have been divorced for 15-20 years with no witnesses due to them being deceased or they cannot be located then get a decree of nullity? I see that you did not comment on that. :confused:

You do what my wife and I agreed to do and that is live a life of continence. You basically have to decide if God comes first or not.

 

[puzzleannie]

Not everyone shares such marrital problems with the public. Whether it be family or close friends. .

marital problems, as in developed after the wedding, are irrelevant, except insofar as they shed light on circumstances that pertained before the wedding.

What witnesses are generally in a position to know are facts that pertain to the canon laws the Msgr. cited. Was there free consent. was their force or duress. was there intent. was there a pattern of instability, mental or psych problems etc in either party beforehand, was it a marriage of convenience etc.

Msgr gave his opinion based on what the gentlemen told him at first, and I am quite sure made it contingent on gathering facts to back up his side of the story. It seems that the grounds the gentlemen, and the msgr advising him, depend on the testimony of others to be established. I am quite sure he was told from the beginning about the role of witnesses, and I hope guided through his own interview.

there is no entitlement to an annulment, just as there is no entitlement to a favorable judgement in any civil law case. there is a process for gathering facts and making judgements based on those facts. The parties must always be prepared to face the consequences if there is no way to satisfactorily prove those facts.

you do have another option, and as you point out, others have taken that road, it is to ignore Catholic teaching on marriage, contract a marriage outside the Church, live together w/o any of the graces intended for the sacrament of matrimony, trying to build a life together entirely on your own energies. You will then have effectively excommunicated yourselves, put your mortal souls in jeopardy, and placed your own wants above God’s law. It is no good making the choice w/o being clear-minded about it.