Annulment / Convalidation Questions

[CatholicArmyWif]

I will try to keep this brief yet include all the information I think you might need to answer my questions.

I was raised Catholic and have attended services almost regularly(I’ve missed a few here and there - especially after my divorce and after some miscarriages when I lost faith temporarily).

When I was 20, I married my now ex-husband. He was also Catholic but we could not marry in the Church because he had been married (and divorced) twice before. We had a daughter almost 8 years ago and divorced 3 years ago. I had asked several times during the marriage to have it blessed by the Church, but my ex thought it would be “too much work” to get the previous marriages annulled. At one point during the last year or so of the marriage (as a way to try to “save” it), he went to a priest and started the process of annulment on his previous marriages. He ultimately was granted the annulments because they were not done in the Church (they were both civil ceremonies - as was our wedding).

Almost 2 years ago now, my new husband and I got married (also in a civil ceremony) before he went back on Active Duty with the Army. He has been married twice before (both civil ceremonies - 1st one was when he was young and it lasted only 9 months, 2nd one the woman was very manipulative/controlling - both wives cheated on him). He is NOT Catholic (was raised Baptist but does not practice any religion right now).

We have had some serious discussions the past few months about my wanting to be more involved in the Church. He has been attending services with me, but I feel like people are looking down on us because we cannot receive the Eucharist because of our situation.

In total I have had 10 miscarriages (7 with my ex and 3 with my new husband). I felt it was God’s punishment for me getting divorced and remarried without his blessing. I have prayed over wanting more children for many years (since the first loss) and now I have answers as to why I lost those children.

My husband and I are happily expecting our 1st child together - we’re about 1/2 way through the pregnancy now and everything is going very well.

So now onto my questions:

1. Do we have to get HIS marriages annulled as well as my previous one?
2. If so, do we have to have the cooperation of his ex-wives to get his marriages annulled?
3. What documents should I begin to gather to bring with us to the priest?
4. Will an annulment make my daughter a “bastard” in the eyes of the Church?
5. Is my current marriage considered a sin because it is not yet blessed by the Church?
6. Will the child from this current pregnancy be considered a “bastard” by the Church because it was conceived / born before the marriage was blessed?
7. Will my new husband being overseas while this process is going on delay it in any way? (He will be able to return emails and call the priest during the deployment but the priest won’t be able to call him directly to ask questions etc)
8. Does my new husband have to convert to Catholicism before our marriage can be blessed? (He and I have discussed him taking the RCIA classes during the deployment with the Catholic chaplain - we need to find out about his marriages needing to be annulled before the classes as well)
9. Since we had a civil ceremony with just witnesses (no family or friends) - would it be appropriate to invite our family / friends to celebrate our marriage being blessed by the Church? (We will not register for gifts or have a fancy reception, but would like them there for the ceremony and possibly go to lunch/dinner after)
10. Will we be able to have our child baptized in the Church before the annulments are processed?

I apologize for all the questions but I would like to have an idea of what we’re looking at and haven’t been able to schedule time with my husband to talk with the priest yet.

 

[VivienneJ]

CatholicArmyWif, I’m still learning about a lot of this, but I think I can set your mind at rest about some of your questions.

I feel like people are looking down on us because we cannot receive the Eucharist because of our situation.

This is sad, but, it may be that you are very sensitive to this issue - I attended Mass with my daughter and the family she married into for quite a while before I converted and did not feel judged when I did not leave my pew to receive the Eucharist.

My sympathy and empathy on all your miscarriages (I only had two and that was bad enough) and my prayers for this pregnancy, may all go well.

So now onto my questions:

1. Do we have to get HIS marriages annulled as well as my previous one? I think you do.
2. If so, do we have to have the cooperation of his ex-wives to get his marriages annulled? I think this is not necessary but you will need statements from others to substantiate the issues surrounding those marriages. (BTW infidelity is not grounds for the granting of a decree of nulity of a marriage. The decree of nulity basically says: this couple attempted a marriage, but because of a lack of full information, or completely willing consent, or some other condition that meant the two people concerned were not able to contract a valid marriage, this attempted marriage is invalid.)
3. What documents should I begin to gather to bring with us to the priest?
4. Will an annulment make my daughter a “bastard” in the eyes of the Church? Absolutely not!! She is a blessing from God and in no way carries any stigma or blame as a result of her parents invalid marriage.
5. Is my current marriage considered a sin because it is not yet blessed by the Church? Your current marriage would be considered a sin because your husband was still married when you got married; there is also the problem that you probably did not get permission not to be married in the Catholic church. As I understand it the blessing of your marriage in the church after your husband has the decrees of nullity for his prior marriages is because you can’t have a second wedding ceremony, but the marriage can be blessed.
6. Will the child from this current pregnancy be considered a “bastard” by the Church because it was conceived / born before the marriage was blessed? Again, “No”, same as in #4,
7. Will my new husband being overseas while this process is going on delay it in any way? (He will be able to return emails and call the priest during the deployment but the priest won’t be able to call him directly to ask questions etc)
8. Does my new husband have to convert to Catholicism before our marriage can be blessed? (He and I have discussed him taking the RCIA classes during the deployment with the Catholic chaplain - we need to find out about his marriages needing to be annulled before the classes as well) No, but it would be wonderful for your family life if he did convert. But that is a whole separate issue to the one of your marriage, decrees of nullity and blessing of the marriage.
9. Since we had a civil ceremony with just witnesses (no family or friends) - would it be appropriate to invite our family / friends to celebrate our marriage being blessed by the Church? (We will not register for gifts or have a fancy reception, but would like them there for the ceremony and possibly go to lunch/dinner after)** This would be an appropriate occasion to celebrate the righting of your marriage - it will be an important moment in your lives.**
10. Will we be able to have our child baptized in the Church before the annulments are processed? As far as I know, yes. Talk to your priest about this, but the acceptance of your child by the church is not dependent on the state of the marriage of the parents. Again my comment in #4 applies.

I apologize for all the questions but I would like to have an idea of what we’re looking at and haven’t been able to schedule time with my husband to talk with the priest yet.

Now I’m sure there are a lot more people with a lot more knowledge of the issues who will give you more detailed information, but I hope this helps until the others weigh in.

 

[kage_ar]

Make an appointment with your Pastor, he can help you with what is too personal to blurt out on the internet.

Prayers and welcome home!

 

[chevalier]

Your previous marriage is not going to be a problem because it was an evident lack of form. It takes the shortest procedure there is. His marriages are going to be much tougher - lack of form does not apply to a non-Catholic, which means examining the marriages on the merits. And so:

1. If any of the women were Catholic and the marriage was only civil - lack of form. No problem there, that’s clearly invalid.
2. If they weren’t Catholic, they weren’t bound to the requirement of form (I know we honour nullity decrees from Orthodox tribunals (except when they allow a second or third marriage as valid), don’t know about Orthodox lack of form nullity decrees or even if they exist at all, but just saying).
3. A possible case with non-Catholics - at least more likely than with practicing Catholics - is exclusion of faith (fidelity) or progeny (children) or especially sacrament (indissolubility). Such an exclusion takes a positive act of will, which means it must be intended and clear.
4. Those ladies don’t really look well-adjusted, so there might be a canon 1095 case:

Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:
1/ those who lack the sufficient use of reason;
2/ those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;
3/ those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature.

Note that this is “incapacity, not difficulty” as Pope John Paul II put it when he was addressing the Roman Rota (the highest tribunal for marriages). Those are mental defects to the point that someone is mentally pre-puberty, is in a mental state comparable to alcoholic stupor, or has a severe personality disorder that eliminates the possibility of living in marriage. This doesn’t mean good marriage, easy marriage, harmonious marriage etc. - it means someone’s simply incapable of being married at all. Here’s some reading:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/marital_consent.htm

As for documents, I don’t know. For starters, whatever was necessary in a civil divorce court. Certificates of birth, marriage, divorce rulings, whatever records you have from the civil cases, mental or psychiatric examinations, correspondence, physical proofs of various behaviours. Note that it’s not enough to prove something bad happened after wedding - it needs to have started before. As Vivienne said, a nullity decree (“annulment” is a mistaken name, strictly speaking) is not a retroactive divorce - it’s a declaration that there was never a valid marriage and it can only be issued when there really has never been a valid marriage, which is the tribunal’s role to establish.

If you can afford it, find a canon lawyer (they shouldn’t normally charge as much as secular attorneys). If you need anything from a civil court or some administrative authority and you have problems, as far as I know the JAG (military attorneys) helps military people and their families with all sorts of cases, including in civil life, not just criminal defence in courts-martial.

 

[lada]

1. Do we have to get HIS marriages annulled as well as my previous one? Yes.
2. If so, do we have to have the cooperation of his ex-wives to get his marriages annulled? **Not necessarily. He just needs to state as much information about them as he can. If they decline to cooperate, the Tribunal will just go on what he states.
   **
3. What documents should I begin to gather to bring with us to the priest? **Marriage licenses, divorce decrees, baptism certificates for any Catholic parties.
   **
4. Will an annulment make my daughter a “bastard” in the eyes of the Church? No, of course not.
5. Is my current marriage considered a sin because it is not yet blessed by the Church? Your marriage is considered invalid and any time you are intimate with your husband, yes, you are committing a mortal sin.
6. Will the child from this current pregnancy be considered a “bastard” by the Church because it was conceived / born before the marriage was blessed? No.
7. Will my new husband being overseas while this process is going on delay it in any way? (He will be able to return emails and call the priest during the deployment but the priest won’t be able to call him directly to ask questions etc) Maybe. He will have to sign the paperwork, as far as I know, and the priest might want to meet with him personally, but maybe not…
8. Does my new husband have to convert to Catholicism before our marriage can be blessed? (He and I have discussed him taking the RCIA classes during the deployment with the Catholic chaplain - we need to find out about his marriages needing to be annulled before the classes as well) ** No, he doesn’t. However, one thing to consider is that if your husband has never been baptized (in any faith, not just Catholic), and he desires baptism into the Catholic church, and these previous marriages are preventing that, then he may qualify for a Pauline or Petrine (I can’t remember which one it is) Privilege which would shorten the time and “work” required for the annulment.**
9. Since we had a civil ceremony with just witnesses (no family or friends) - would it be appropriate to invite our family / friends to celebrate our marriage being blessed by the Church? (We will not register for gifts or have a fancy reception, but would like them there for the ceremony and possibly go to lunch/dinner after) Sure. Why not?
10. Will we be able to have our child baptized in the Church before the annulments are processed? Yes, in theory. I should mention here that I am in a very similar situation to yours. I had three children with my husband before I decided to come back to the church. The first thing on my mind, once I had made a committed decision to return, was getting those children baptized. My parish priest drug his feet a little and wanted to wait and see if my husband’s annulment from his previous marriage went through first. That was really unnerving. I felt that one should have no bearing on the other. So…I went around his head and had a friend who is also a priest baptize them. I hope your priest is more like my friend, and believes the sins of the parents should have no bearing on baptizing the children, and less like my parish priest.

 

[puzzleannie]

no one here can help you
you need to make an appointment with your parish priest, bring him all this info, with documentation, and he will tell you what additional info is needed (please don’t post it here, we don’t need to know)

on the face of it if what you say is true, it does not sound as if there has been one valid marriage in any of this, but that is for the priest to decipher. thank you though for demonstrating that these situations are usually much more complicated than they seem on the surface.

in short, each “marriage” beginning with the earliest will be investigated to determine its validity. only then, and only after proper preparation and assurance that this will be a valid union, can you remarry or have the current marriage convalidated.

meanwhile your instincts are right on target. Return to Mass and prepare for the sacraments on the happy day when resolution of your marriage issue permits.

miscarriages result from natural causes, not from God’s punishment for anything, for advice on that, see your ob-gyn.

yes, as long as you show the pastor you intend firmly to return to the faith, are doing your best and working on resolving the marriage and any other issues, and to raise your children Catholic, you can have them baptized, begin religious education, prepare for sacraments etc.

 

[CatholicArmyWif]

I would like to thank all of you for your replies. I apologize for using the wrong terminology in my question.

You all have reassured me that we’re not trying to do something impossible. My husband’s work schedule hasn’t permitted us to talk with the priest since we decided to go down this path so I’m grateful for the information you provided in the meantime.

I will begin gathering documents I think might be needed to facilitate the process (divorce decrees, marriage licenses/certificates, etc) and speak to JAG about possibly finding a canon lawyer (hopefully they can help with that).

We definitely want this child (current pregnancy) and any future children baptized in the Church and we plan to raise him (them) Catholic. I also wanted to say that I eventually realized that the miscarriages were not God’s punishment, but I did lose faith after several of them (having since returned to the Church).

Again, I appreciate all the advice & information. I am now even more at peace with our decision and we will proceed as soon as we can meet with the priest.

 

[armywife]

You Catholic chaplain on post can help you the most. Just talk to him, and he will guide you through everything.

Also, don’t let people look down upon you. You are doing the right thing by not receiving. Most people don’t even think about their sins at they receive the Eucharist and just go no matter what or how long it’s been since confession. I’m sure it just feels weird to you when everyone is going (whether they should be or not) and you’re not.

Finally, check out MCCW or CWOC in your parish on post. Those ladies are usually really great and offer great support.

 

[chevalier]

I would like to thank all of you for your replies. I apologize for using the wrong terminology in my question.

Nah, it’s my part to apologise if you got the impression I was nagging! Basically, this was to explain the confusion caused by the widespread use of the wrong term which people pick up and are confused by (e.g. thinking it’s a retroactive divorce, as in making a marriage null because supposedly it’s not okay to stop a marriage but it’s okay to delete it retroactively, which is not true but which is what e.g. some other denominations think about us).

I will begin gathering documents I think might be needed to facilitate the process (divorce decrees, marriage licenses/certificates, etc) and speak to JAG about possibly finding a canon lawyer (hopefully they can help with that).

It doesn’t fall within their scope of duties, but if, say, one of them is Catholic, it could be worth trying. They can certainly help with formalities in civil courts, such as when you need records from a divorce court and you face some problems.

 

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by CatholicArmyWif
5) Is my current marriage considered a sin because it is not yet blessed by the Church?
9) Since we had a civil ceremony with just witnesses (no family or friends) - would it be appropriate to invite our family / friends to celebrate our marriage being blessed by the Church? (We will not register for gifts or have a fancy reception, but would like them there for the ceremony and possibly go to lunch/dinner after)

Originally posted by VivienneJ

Your current marriage would be considered a sin because your husband was still married when you got married; there is also the problem that you probably did not get permission not to be married in the Catholic church. As I understand it the blessing of your marriage in the church after your husband has the decrees of nullity for his prior marriages is because you can’t have a second wedding ceremony, but the marriage can be blessed.

What VivienneJ wrote is not quite right. Yes, most people refer to having their invalid marriages ‘blessed by the Church’ but what you will be doing (if your husband gets his decrees of nullity) is getting married not simply receiving a blessing.

You will be exchanging consent and speaking your vows validly for the first time as far as the Church is concerned. You will still need witnesses (i.e.: maid of honour, best man) and really there will be no difference in the ceremony from what it would have been if you’d done it this way from the start. Feel free to celebrate this wonderful occasion in the way you describe: your friends & families should be thrilled and want to celebrate that you are making things right with Mother Church.

 

[moon1234]

1. Do we have to get HIS marriages annulled as well as my previous one?
   No. They were not valid marraiges in the eyes of the church. He was, and still is, committing adultry (So are you.).
2. If so, do we have to have the cooperation of his ex-wives to get his marriages annulled?
   See response to question 1.
3. What documents should I begin to gather to bring with us to the priest?
   Previous marraige documents. You will also need baptism and confirmation certificates.
4. Will an annulment make my daughter a “bastard” in the eyes of the Church?
   She already is. Any child that is conceived outside of a church sanctioned or dispensed marraige is considered a bastard. Don’t dell on this as you can’t change it.
5. Is my current marriage considered a sin because it is not yet blessed by the Church?
   You have no marraige in the eyes of the church. You are two people committing adultry.
6. Will the child from this current pregnancy be considered a “bastard” by the Church because it was conceived / born before the marriage was blessed?
   Yes.
7. Will my new husband being overseas while this process is going on delay it in any way? (He will be able to return emails and call the priest during the deployment but the priest won’t be able to call him directly to ask questions etc)
   The process is really simple. You have had no valid marraiges based on what you indicated. Therefore you are both free to Marry. The marraige tribunal will however need to substantiate all of your claims before they consider you free to marry. You will get a lecture because you ARE Catholic and should know better. Be a woman and accept it.
8. Does my new husband have to convert to Catholicism before our marriage can be blessed? (He and I have discussed him taking the RCIA classes during the deployment with the Catholic chaplain - we need to find out about his marriages needing to be annulled before the classes as well)
   He does not, but it will be preferred. If he is also Catholic and has been divorced, then the marraige tribunal will also need to discern if his first marraige was valid. If you was then you will not be free to marry in the church as he would still be validly married.
9. Since we had a civil ceremony with just witnesses (no family or friends) - would it be appropriate to invite our family / friends to celebrate our marriage being blessed by the Church? (We will not register for gifts or have a fancy reception, but would like them there for the ceremony and possibly go to lunch/dinner after)
   If you are allowed to marry in the church then you would have the same rights and blessings as any couple. The church would consider this your FIRST valid marraige. Everyhting that cam before was adultry.
10. Will we be able to have our child baptized in the Church before the annulments are processed?
    Yes, but for God’s sake please have her/him baptised as soon as possible. Keep in mind that ANYONE can validly baptise. The church recognizes baptism in protestant churchs as long as proper form and intent is followed. "I baptise you in the name if the Father and The son and The Holy Ghost (Spirit).) If those words were used then the child is validly baptised. The church may conditionally re-baptise your child "If you are not already baptised, I baptise you …) This is not required for you to be married.

I apologize for all the questions but I would like to have an idea of what we’re looking at and haven’t been able to schedule time with my husband to talk with the priest yet.

Keep in mind that the title of Bastard will not be written anywhere in documents. The term is generic to any child born out of marraige.

You will be expected to live apart until you are validly married. The church will not allow you to continue in sin. The church will expect you to live as two single people until you are married. I understand that this may be hard for you and your children’s father, but it will be better for you both.

Congratulations on wanting to live a proper life in the church. I will pray for you.

 

[moon1234]

Since I can no longer edit the previous message I would like to add the following:

Can. 1139 Illegitimate children are legitimated by the subsequent marriage of their parents, whether valid or putative, or by a rescript of the Holy See.

Meaning that the child that you are carrying now would be made legitimate by your subsequent marraige to the father. Until then he would be considered illegitimate.

 

[kage_ar]

I will begin gathering documents I think might be needed to facilitate the process (divorce decrees, marriage licenses/certificates, etc) and speak to JAG about possibly finding a canon lawyer (hopefully they can help with that).

Talk to your Priest - the vast majority of people go through the tribunal process and never even know that Canon Lawyers exist. They work with their Priest, then with the advocate in the Parish (a deacon, a sister, a layperson) assists them through the process.

 

[chevalier]

Talk to your Priest - the vast majority of people go through the tribunal process and never even know that Canon Lawyers exist. They work with their Priest, then with the advocate in the Parish (a deacon, a sister, a layperson) assists them through the process.

That, and the army chaplaincy may have some contacts, as in, know who and where could provide help. Meanwhile, you can read a book about it, if you’re interested, but make sure it comes from a reliable source. The back of the cover should say something about the author - you obviously don’t want a “how to” manual written by a shady person, you want an informative book written by someone with real credentials (professor from a canon law dept. at a Catholic university would be ideal, but may be too tough to read - anything by a faithful apologist should be okay - at least free of intentional misrepresentations). It won’t make you a canon lawyer, but it will give you the ability to know what everybody’s talking about and that’s a great thing for everybody, including the lawyer who’s helping you.