Annulment--I have a question

[LLML]

Hello Deacon Cameron,

I found this thread while searching on internet and have been learning about annulments.

I think the posters may be confusing the “annulment” process using the tribunal, questionnaires, etc. with the filling out of forms
that also “annul” the marriage, for example, the annulment of a Catholic marriage because of lack of canonical form can be done with a simple form and supporting documents, rather than a whole drawn out process with witnesses, etc.

I also have a question.

I am a Catholic, free to marry, who wishes to marry a Reconstructionist, non-practicing Jewish man (not baptized). He is divorced from his previous wife who was Greek Orthodox. They were married by a Jewish cantor and she had no “dispensation” to get married outside her church, nor did she renounce her religion. It’s my understanding that this makes that marriage invalid for her in the eyes of the Greek church. She has since remarried.

It is my understanding that this previous marriage can be annulled for reasons similar to lack of canonical form. In addition, there were other reasons which we believe are grounds for annulment because of conditions existing at the time of the marriage - I won’t elaborate on those here.

I read your posting with interest:

Non Catholics who marry non Catholics, excepting the Eastern Orthodox*, can enter a valid marriage civilly if they are free to marry as in nos. 1a and 1b above. They do not need a religious ceremony, just a legal civil ceremony.

2a. Only the Eastern Orthodox need a sacred rite in which an Eastern Orthodox priest presides according to their own laws (*and possibly the Polish National Catholic Church).

I am going to talk with our deacon about the annulment, but am trying to do some research up front, since I understand canon law can be pretty complicated and many deacons are not well versed in canon law since it’s so specialized.

My question is - will the grounds for our annulment be that type of lack of canonical form, or will we file using the other grounds? I understand the latter is a more complicated process.

Thanks for your help,

 

[Just_Lurking]

From the Archdiocese of Chicago (see here):

1. How is a marriage declared invalid for a “lack of canonical form”?

Marriages of Catholics or the Orthodox which are invalid because of lack of proper form can be declared invalid through an administrative process. This normally takes place when one of the parties wants to enter into a subsequent marriage. The request for an administrative declaration of nullity is normally sent in by the parish priest with the rest of the marriage papers. The parish priest should fill out a form called “Petition for Declaration of Nullity for Marriage Attempted Outside the Church,” and submit it to the Office for Canonical Services, along with the baptismal certificate of the Catholic or Orthodox party, a copy of the marriage license and divorce decree from the previous marriages, and two witness affidavits which state that the marriage never took place according to the proper form.

A typical administrative declaration of nullity in the Archdiocese of Chicago would take about two weeks to obtain, once the necessary papers have been sent to the Office for Canonical Services.

 

[LLML]

Thank you!

 

[cameron_lansing]

. . . My question is - will the grounds for our annulment be that type of lack of canonical form, or will we file using the other grounds? I understand the latter is a more complicated process.

Your particular case is best addressed by the priest or deacon at your parish, who, notwithstanding any personal unfamiliarity with canon law, can discuss it with canonists of the diocese. Only then can all the facts be adequately presented and considered.

If the proof of obligation to form and the failure to observe it cannot be obtained, then, yes, the marriage would be investigated on some ground(s) related to consent, and the ordinary tribunal process, which is more complicated, rather than the simpler administrative process, would be necessary.

But again, this needs to be evaluated in the concrete, and it cannot be done through a forum.

 

[LLML]

Thank you so much!

Just as an update, I have talked with our deacon, and we are filling out the necessary paperwork for the nullity on the basis of “lack of sacred rite”, which as you pointed out involves providing evidence of the ex-wife’s Greek Orthodox status.

 

[jpruitts1]

Ask your husband to file for an annullment, if the annullment is declined then you can go to your priest and ask for an internal form, he will know what that is. I would also suggest you do some research on Internal Form. I was a similar situation and it finally worked out we had to use the internal form. God Bless.

 

[jpruitts1]

I was where you are a few months ago and finally am receiving Eucharist again. God Bless.

 

[LLML]

Ask your husband to file for an annullment, if the annullment is declined then you can go to your priest and ask for an internal form, he will know what that is. I would also suggest you do some research on Internal Form. I was a similar situation and it finally worked out we had to use the internal form. God Bless.

Thank you. Just to make sure I understand. Yes, we are filing the request for annulment for my husband since he is Jewish I am taking care of a lot of the paperwork but he of course is the petitioner and signer. In case this were declined, which I don’t think it will be, I will research what you say about Internal form. Could you give me some more information about it here or do you prefer not to do this?

 

[LLML]

Thank you. Just to make sure I understand. Yes, we are filing the request for annulment for my husband since he is Jewish I am taking care of a lot of the paperwork but he of course is the petitioner and signer. In case this were declined, which I don’t think it will be, I will research what you say about Internal form. Could you give me some more information about it here or do you prefer not to do this?

Sorry, please disregard. I now know what you are referring to - internal forum.

It’s my hope this situation will not even require me to investigate. I understand it is controversial. But my understanding of internal forum is that we could use it if, for example, we couldn’t prove the baptism of my husband’s former wife, for whatever reason - for example, she refused to cooperate and wouldn’t tell us how to find the baptismal record. Or, for example if a 90 year old lady wanted an annulment and all the witnesses were deceased. I know some people think one still cannot use the internal forum in such cases but it seems commonsense to me that if there is a truth but that truth cannot be proved, God would want that truth to be upheld. I’ll probably start a firestorm. LOL. Thanks for your answer. Other readers, please note, I don’t want to get started with a discussion on internal forum here - that would be a separate thread and as I said before I don’t think it will apply to me. Thank you for your post, though, because this is not a commonly known concept - probably for a reason - so it will not be abused.

 

[Cookie2]

I’ve been reading these posts with great interest and would like some clarification. My 1st husband, a baptized protestant, was previously married in Episcopal church to another baptized protestant. They were in the middle of divorce/separation proceedings when we met. He then moved to Nevada to establish residency for quick divorce. He and I (non-baptised at the time) married immediately in a wedding chapel. We divorced 21 years ago and since then I have become a Catholic and now wish to re-marry. It appears I was not in a valid Christian marriage and therefore need to do what?

 

[LLML]

I’ve been reading these posts with great interest and would like some clarification. My 1st husband, a baptized protestant, was previously married in Episcopal church to another baptized protestant. They were in the middle of divorce/separation proceedings when we met. He then moved to Nevada to establish residency for quick divorce. He and I (non-baptised at the time) married immediately in a wedding chapel. We divorced 21 years ago and since then I have become a Catholic and now wish to re-marry. It appears I was not in a valid Christian marriage and therefore need to do what?

Hi there, I would speak to your parish priest or any priest if you don’t belong to a parish - the rules are very complicated especially with the timing of your baptism.

Your first marriage may not have been valid since it sounds like your husband’s first marriage was valid at the time he married you but since you were not baptized at the time of your first marriage the rules might be different somehow so I would make sure your marriage to him was invalid or doesn’t need some kind of administrative dissolution before you remarry, so check this out with a priest or deacon who can consult with a Canon law lawyer. I think that even if your marriage was invalid you might need to document this somehow since it was a civil marriage and the Church presumes all marriages to be valid until they investigate otherwise - I see it as kind of due diligence on their part. It might be a very simple procedure that just takes a form and $20 and a couple of weeks. Check it out right away since timing is important.

Also be sure your fiance is also free to marry.

God Bless!

 

[Cookie2]

Thank you for your answer. On the last point, yes, he is a widower and a Catholic.

I wonder why being non-baptised would affect invalidity of my marriage? Wouldn’t the same rules apply to the validity of that marriage whether I was baptised or not?

Yes, I plan to see a canon lawyer very soon. Also, am trying to get copies of the divorce decree and marriage certificate from my ex’s first marriage. Seems I will need to prove the invalidity???

 

[Just_Lurking]

Yes, I plan to see a canon lawyer very soon. Also, am trying to get copies of the divorce decree and marriage certificate from my ex’s first marriage. Seems I will need to prove the invalidity???

You need to establish that your ex’s first marriage had at least the appearance of validity. In other words, that neither party was Catholic and that neither party had prior marriages.

 

[Cookie2]

Ummmm…I’m pretty sure they were married in an Episcopal church and she was very young - 17 or thereabouts. I would guess that she was baptised also, but not sure. I know they had the big church wedding.

 

[LLML]

Thank you for your answer. On the last point, yes, he is a widower and a Catholic.

I wonder why being non-baptised would affect invalidity of my marriage? Wouldn’t the same rules apply to the validity of that marriage whether I was baptised or not?

Yes, I plan to see a canon lawyer very soon. Also, am trying to get copies of the divorce decree and marriage certificate from my ex’s first marriage. Seems I will need to prove the invalidity???

I hesitate to give too much detailed information since it’s very complex and it seems the various diocese may have slightly differing terminologies, but at this site there’s a matrix that summarizes at a high level, which type of cases are to be followed for marriages of Catholics, Baptized, and Unbaptized, in all their combinations . But the timing of your baptism might affect the judgement of the canon lawyers, so they must decide which process is required for you. Catholics are held to a different standard for their marriages - other marriages are judged to be valid based on natural law and/or on other criteria if they are sacramental to the parties involved, and the church affiliations of the parties involved determine this. Hopes this makes sense?

Yes, it would seem logical that you’d need to prove your former marriage was invalid. The priest will look at your legal marriage certificate and see one former marriage dissolved by divorce. You need to prove it was not a valid marriage to the Church and in order to do that, you could prove your husband still had a valid (to the Church) marriage at the time you married, or if he didn’t you’d need to prove that although he was free to marry you, the marriage didn’t qualify as a valid marriage. All can seem somewhat offputting at first, but if you really consider it, it makes sense. As I mentioned, just the Church doing due diligence - since they take distributing the Eucharist very seriously and don’t want to do this if you are in a state of mortal sin. But don’t be frightened - although it may sound very legalistic, the deacons and priests are very easy to talk with.

Here’s the link with the matrix:
www.diocs.org/CPC/Tribunal/Decision_matrix.pdf - Similar pages

You need to prove that either your ex-husband was already married when he married you or that if he was free to marry you, that there was a problem with the marriage. Also that you were not married before being married to him.

I had previously assumed that the Church would not be concerned so much with marriages of non-Catholics and unbaptized, but this is not the case. In fact, marriages of unbaptized persons are subject only to natural law to make them valid in the eyes of the Church. The key is that the Church presumes ALL marriages to be valid until proven otherwise, not just marriages involving Catholics or baptized persons and when you get into all the possible combinations the complexity comes in.

 

[Cookie2]

That chart was a great help to me - according to that I am a #14, i.e., a baptized and unbaptized w/o a declaration of nullity. Further I am the petitioner that was NOT formerly married. So if that info is correct then it appears I will qualify for a ligamen process.

This afternoon I did some investigation and have located the church (Episcopal) records of my ex’s first marriage and I ordered a copy of it. The secretary told me the certificate stated both parties were baptized Christians. I have also ordered his civil divorce decree from Nevada.

So…with this information I now have an appointment next week to see a visiting priest who happens to be a canon lawyer! Seems as if the Holy Spirit has been clearing the way for me.

So, thank you once again for your valuable (name removed by moderator)ut and caring. I’ll keep this forum posted on results. Perhaps it will help or encourage others in my same spot.

Peace be with all of you,
Cookie forums.catholic-questions.org/images/smilies/prayer/praying.gif

 

[LLML]

I’m so glad the information was helpful to you. Yes, the Holy Spirit was definitely at work for you and I also felt the same - barriers I had thought might exist just seemed to disappear - a strange feeling and hard to describe. You are correct, others that are in a situation in which their status is not optimal should really talk with their priest or deacon or any priest online or at a parish and get the process started. It will be less painful or embarrassing than they think and the results are, as the Mastercard commerical announces, “Priceless”. So I hope we encourage some others. All the best to you.