Annulment of marriage Please Read and Help

[beata3408]

Hi Eric

The answers to your questions, no she was not married , I don’t know her religion if any,
I have absolutely no chance of finding her as the UK court bailiffs could not find her to serve divorce papers.

O and thanks for trying to help

 

[beata3408]

No when we went and seen the priest in Poland he asked for all the paper work to be done in the uk, every time we seen the priest in the uk i told him I was a divorcee and one at lest one occasion he told me the RCC does not recognized registry office marriages and not to worry every think is going to be done on time.

 

[EricFilmer]

I have Three options open to use 1, postpone the wedding and lose £2,500 at no fault of ours 2, get married in a registry office in Poland Or 3, married in a church of England and lose £2,500 no fault of mine. then we need to think about children??

If I made a mistake this big at work my feet would not touch the floor

Are you saying in this thread that a Catholic priest has already agreed to do the wedding, has conducted the interviews with you and your fiance (in which information concerning your former marriage would be recorded), and has agreed to the wedding date? If there is such a priest already involved (as opposed to a Catholic priest who is not actually involved in the marriage procedure but simply gave you some (name removed by moderator)ut) then the fault certainly seems to be his. Quite frankly, I would be surprised to learn that there is such a priest actively involved in your marriage preparation, simply because such professional negligence is hard to envision, but such things do happen.

 

[The_Idiot]

Beata

As you are Anglican I would go straight to the Marriage Tribunal for the Diocese in which you live and ask to see one of their staff stating you need help because your ex wife could not be traced for Divorce papers to be served on her .

Since there are legal differences between the USA and the UK , the local marriage tribunal should prove helpful

 

[EricFilmer]

Hi Eric

The answers to your questions, no she was not married , I don’t know her religion if any,
I have absolutely no chance of finding her as the UK court bailiffs could not find her to serve divorce papers.

O and thanks for trying to help

You’re very welcome and I am happy to provide any assistance that I can. I’m sad to say that, based on your responses, this does not sound like an investigation that can be realistically conducted in a four-month time span (for example, she was not previously married and cannot be contacted for details about her religious background). In other words, it sounds like a full investigation is needed rather than being able to use a shorter annulment procedure. I wish I had better news for you.

 

[beata3408]

Ok last year we went to see the Priest in the UK and asked him what I needed to do as I was still married at that time. He told me to get a divorce and I did, at the same time we went to Poland and seen the priest there telling him of our plan. As we both live in the UK we agreed to do all the paper work here.

So divorce in hand so months later and sat down with another priest in the UK and explained to him what was going on and the paper work started. Beata had a lot of paper work to do then, two months later we booked up all the venues, Church in Poland, wedding dress, etc,etc everything going ok, then the priest asked to see me. When I got there he said I have one last form to fill in and it was the Annulment of Marriage form, he said it was a formality and time was not an issue, so i came home and looked it up on the internet and the rest you know.

 

[Corki]

Ok last year we went to see the Priest in the UK and asked him what I needed to do as I was still married at that time. He told me to get a divorce and I did, at the same time we went to Poland and seen the priest there telling him of our plan. As we both live in the UK we agreed to do all the paper work here.

So divorce in hand so months later and sat down with another priest in the UK and explained to him what was going on and the paper work started.

I assume the first priest was your financee’s pastor in the UK. What happened to get another priest in the UK involved?

 

[EricFilmer]

Ok last year we went to see the Priest in the UK and asked him what I needed to do as I was still married at that time. He told me to get a divorce and I did, at the same time we went to Poland and seen the priest there telling him of our plan. As we both live in the UK we agreed to do all the paper work here.

So divorce in hand so months later and sat down with another priest in the UK and explained to him what was going on and the paper work started. Beata had a lot of paper work to do then, two months later we booked up all the venues, Church in Poland, wedding dress, etc,etc everything going ok, then the priest asked to see me. When I got there he said I have one last form to fill in and it was the Annulment of Marriage form, he said it was a formality and time was not an issue, so i came home and looked it up on the internet and the rest you know.

Based on all this, the situation may not be as grave as initially thought (and may not even be grave at all). It could well be that the 4-month time span is not a problem because the investigation may have already been started by the Catholic priest in the U.K. Unfortunately I need to go off for the next few hours, and do not have time at the moment to elaborate further, but I will when I get back. In the meantime I recommend that you do not do anything drastic, like cancelling reservations or such.

 

[1ke]

Generally speaking, the Catholic church does not regard a civil marriage between baptized persons to be valid (even if they are not specifically Catholic). The exchange of vows, rather, should be in some kind of church building (unless a dispensation has been granted by a proper ecclesiastical authority).

This is not accurate at all. See the link to the nullity chart provided earlier.

Two non-Catholic Christians marry validly when they marry civilly, excepting those in true particular Churches such as the Orthodox Churches who state otherwise.

 

[1ke]

Based on all this, the situation may not be as grave as initially thought (and may not even be grave at all). It could well be that the 4-month time span is not a problem because the investigation may have already been started by the Catholic priest in the U.K. Unfortunately I need to go off for the next few hours, and do not have time at the moment to elaborate further, but I will when I get back. In the meantime I recommend that you do not do anything drastic, like cancelling reservations or such.

Unfortunately, that information is not accurate.

 

[1ke]

No when we went and seen the priest in Poland he asked for all the paper work to be done in the uk, every time we seen the priest in the uk i told him I was a divorcee and one at lest one occasion he told me the RCC does not recognized registry office marriages and not to worry every think is going to be done on time.

I am not sure why he told you that, unless he was somehow under the impression you were a Catholic.

It simply isn’t true.

 

[1ke]

Since you were baptised and then had a civil marriage rather than one in a church, I’m not sure an annulment is actually necessary.

This is a common misconception. But completely untrue.

See the chart below:

diocs.org/Portals/1/Documents/Tribunal/Decision_matrix.pdf

Only Catholics and members of the Orthodox Churches must adhere to canonical form. Non-Catholics (and non-Orthodox) who marry civilly marry validly. Baptized and unbaptized. When they marry in a religious ceremony, the clergy are merely the civil witness to the marriage. Their presence or absence in no way impacts validity. It is the exchange of consent between the parties that brings a valid marriage into being.

 

[AnnArbor]

Generally speaking, the Catholic church does not regard a civil marriage between baptized persons to be valid (even if they are not specifically Catholic). The exchange of vows, rather, should be in some kind of church building (unless a dispensation has been granted by a proper ecclesiastical authority).

This is not true. The Catholic Church recognizes any civil marriage between two persons who are not Catholic, and who are free to marry. The OP should discuss this with his priest – if his wife was Catholic, they could proceed with a lack of form case. Barring proof she was a baptized Catholic, they will need to proceed with a fulll Tribunal investigation.

 

[EricFilmer]

Ok last year we went to see the Priest in the UK and asked him what I needed to do as I was still married at that time. He told me to get a divorce and I did, at the same time we went to Poland and seen the priest there telling him of our plan. As we both live in the UK we agreed to do all the paper work here.

So divorce in hand so months later and sat down with another priest in the UK and explained to him what was going on and the paper work started. Beata had a lot of paper work to do then, two months later we booked up all the venues, Church in Poland, wedding dress, etc,etc everything going ok, then the priest asked to see me. When I got there he said I have one last form to fill in and it was the Annulment of Marriage form, he said it was a formality and time was not an issue, so i came home and looked it up on the internet and the rest you know.

First of all, seeing as your fiance is currently living in the UK, it is proper for a Catholic priest in the UK (as well as the local tribunal) to handle your various marriage preparations. Once they are concluded, the priest you have been meeting with simply sends a letter of permission to the priest in Poland who will conduct the actual ceremony. So my point here is that your preparations are simplified by the fact that everything (at this point) can be handled by a UK priest and your local Catholic tribunal.

Secondly, the priest currently handling your marriage not only needs to get the involvement of the tribunal for the sake of your annulment, but also in terms of your fiance needing permission of her bishop to marry a non-Catholic (a requirement of canon law). You mentioned that your fiance has already filled out a bunch of papers, so they probably included the form which officially makes such a request. In light of all this, the priest in question may have already gotten your annulment investigation started (informally, if not formally), which would explain why he is not so concerned about the time frame. He also probably knows enough about your case as well as the procedures of his particular diocesan tribunal to expect that everything can be completed prior to the wedding date. It could still be argued that he may have put the cart before the horse, but I think you can follow his directions without any undue concern.

Thirdly, the fact that a UK court could not find your ex-wife’s contact information is probably speeding things up. When a person starts an annulment investigation but does not know the whereabouts of the ex-spouse, he is still usually required (by the tribunal) to make a sincere, earnest effort in getting the ex-spouse’s current contact information. If all else fails in this endeavor, then it is possible for the ex-spouse to be considered an “unlocatable respondent”, and then the investigation can proceed without said person’s involvement. Locating ex-spouses and then interacting with them (and their witnesses) can take a lot of time in an annulment investigation. But seeing as a court could not find your ex-wife, the tribunal may feel justified in declaring her an unlocatable responent right off the bat, and therefore shaving off a lot of time and energy in terms of your case.

 

[mflorence]

You can’t get your marriage ‘blessed’ unless your first marriage is declared invalid and you receive a decree of nullity (an annulment).

While the popular term is ‘having your marriage blessed’, it is in fact getting married in the Church (a convalidation). You can’t do that if you are still married to the person you vowed to stay with ‘until death us do part’ – and as far as the Church and God are concerned you still are.

In fact, priests are forbidden from giving public blessings to those who are divorced and remarried without an annulment in case it should be perceived that they are in good standing with the Church.

Love sure is litigious around here. Is this a spiritual forum or the registration renewal desk at the DMV?

 

[Vincent1984]

Love sure is litigious around here. Is this a spiritual forum or the registration renewal desk at the DMV?

It’s a thread about Catholic marriage. Love is a good start to a marriage, but there is more to marriage than the feeling of love; there is also permanent commitment. Catholics believe that marriage lasts until death (even if the ‘feeling of love’ ends).

If someone wants to cut off the person who seems like their spouse, and then wants to marry another, as though he were not married to the first, this is a huge problem. It’s adultery. Sometimes, therefore, he will attempt to prove somehow that he was not really married to the first wife.

I grant you that a lot of canon law can seem quite arbitrary. But this is actually one of the parts most clearly taken from the words of Jesus Himself:

And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
—Mark 10:12

 

[mflorence]

It’s a thread about Catholic marriage. Love is a good start to a marriage, but there is more to marriage than the feeling of love; there is also permanent commitment. Catholics believe that marriage lasts until death (even if the ‘feeling of love’ ends).

If someone wants to cut off the person who seems like their spouse, and then wants to marry another, as though he were not married to the first, this is a huge problem. It’s adultery. Sometimes, therefore, he will attempt to prove somehow that he was not really married to the first wife.

I grant you that a lot of canon law can seem quite arbitrary. But this is actually one of the parts most clearly taken from the words of Jesus Himself:

And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”
—Mark 10:12

But if he marries another and subsequent to that has that marriage properly annulled in accordance with proper process, he can remarry within the Church and that is not adultery.

That’s litigious.

Love is not love which alters when it alteration finds, or bends with the remover to remove.

That’s Shakespeare.

 

[Vincent1984]

Would you like to explain yourself

As many others have said, attempting marriage outside of the Church is not really a solution at all. Catholics (such as the OP’s intended) cannot validly marry outside of the Church. A “blessing” of the “marriage” afterwards is no such thing; it ought to be understood as saying marriage vows for the first (meaningful) time. If a couple thought they were getting a “wedding blessing” when they ought to have been validating, it’s worse than a waste of time because it confuses people.

OP, I’m sorry that your priest has only sprung this on you at such a late stage. I have no idea why he would think that you (and he) could ignore your 1993 marriage.

The only way I can think of to reduce that amount of time taken by your request for a declaration of nullity would be if you could prove that your wife had been a Catholic, and therefore attempted marriage invalidly outside of the Church. Could you see if Catholic churches near her hometown have a record of her baptism?

 

[Vincent1984]

But if he marries another and subsequent to that has that marriage properly annulled in accordance with proper process, he can remarry within the Church and that is not adultery. Litigious.

Touché. You are pretty much correct. It’s not exactly an ideal situation and you are far from the first person to recognize that it can give a problematic appearence.

Properly speaking, you don’t ‘get an annulment’. You ask for an investigation into the circumstances of the marriage. The result could come back that invalidity is proven or not proven. The tribunal cannot actively annul; it can only find and declare nullity where it exists.

 

[EricFilmer]

This is not accurate at all. See the link to the nullity chart provided earlier.

Two non-Catholic Christians marry validly when they marry civilly, excepting those in true particular Churches such as the Orthodox Churches who state otherwise.

This is not true. The Catholic Church recognizes any civil marriage between two persons who are not Catholic, and who are free to marry. The OP should discuss this with his priest – if his wife was Catholic, they could proceed with a lack of form case. Barring proof she was a baptized Catholic, they will need to proceed with a fulll Tribunal investigation.

Ok, ok, ok. Obviously some clarification is needed here.

First of all, I never said that a full annulment investigation would not be needed in the case of two baptized non-Catholics having a civil marriage. As a matter-of-fact, I clearly said the opposite. I will remind both of you that in Post #17 (the same post you are responding to) that I made the following comment to the OP, “But, as explained in this thread, the Catholic Church will presume that your former marriage is valid (even though it took place as a civil ceremony) unless a Catholic tribunal investigates it and finds it to be otherwise. Nevertheless, the civil marriage circumstances and the letter from your Anglican pastor will be helpful contributions for the sake of the investigation.” (emphasis added)

Moreover, in Post #23, I clearly stated (concerning the OP’s annulment case), “…it sounds like a full investigation is needed rather than being able to use a shorter annulment procedure. I wish I had better news for you.” (emphasis added)

Concerning 1ke’s statement, “Two non-Catholic Christians marry validly when they marry civilly…”, this needs to be edited a bit. It is more accurate to say that a civil marriage between two baptized, non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians has the potential of being sacramentally valid, and the Church will presume this to be the case unless demonstrated otherwise. Moreover, unless a particular case involves a ligamen issue, it must be subjected to a full annulment investigation.

The comment that I made in Post #17 that you are both referring to was actually information given to me by a member of my local diocesan tribunal staff. I was assisting with an annulment investigation in a case similar to that of the OP’s, and the person on the tribunal I spoke with made the comment that, generally speaking, the Catholic Church does not consider civil marriages between baptized Christians to be valid, but I was still required to have the couple do the full annulment investigation. This person did not elaborate further on this specific topic, but obviously we are not talking about a “hard & fast rule” here. After all, if this were a hard & fast rule then the Church would have a separate annulment investigation to deal with civil marriages between baptized non-Catholic/Orthodox couples. So it is my understanding that even though the Catholic Church recognizes the potential of such marriages to be sacramentally valid, and even though a full annulment investigation is required to demonstrate otherwise, the fact that it was a civil ceremony (and not within a church) lends weight to the argument against the marriage’s validity. This is why I told the OP (in Post #17), “Nevertheless, the civil marriage circumstances and the letter from your Anglican pastor will be helpful contributions for the sake of the investigation.” However, I don’t think that the reality of a civil marriage ceremony is enough (in and of itself) to declare a marriage to be invalid, hence my above use of such terminology as “lends weight” and “helpful contributions”.

All this, of course, would go far in explaining the attitude and behavior of the priest handling the OP’s marriage preparations.