Annulment question

[tamrk]

Hello All!
I am new to this forum and have a question for those who have been through or have knowledge of annulment proceedings.

The backstory: After 20years of marriage, my husband revealed to me that he was homosexual. It was a shock to say the least. As far as I know, he was faithful during the marriage. We stayed together for 5 more years and tried counseling but 6 months ago he moved out and asked for a divorce. It should be final in about a month.

I have spoken to my priest and he told me to get back with him once the divorce is final and he would walk me through the process. I have done lots of reading on the process of annulments and I am sure it varies some from diocese to diocese. However, most information I have read states that the tribunal investigates and does interviews and calls witnesses. This may be an issue because very few people know about the reason behind the divorce. Our kids (21 and 17) do know, because I insisted that their father be honest with them. The priest we did conseling with knows along with a very few friends/family.

My husband has agreed to cooperate with the tribunal. But, how can we call witnesses? I certainly will not allow my children to be called in. What could they say anyway?

Anyone else out there dealth with or heard of this type of situation? I cannot find anything in my reading that deals with this specifically. Any advice would be most appreciated.

P.S. I am a cradle Catholic. My husband was protestant when we were married but converted to Catholicism about 12 years ago. He has stopped attending Mass.

 

[TheDoctor]

I am so sorry to hear about your situation. You are in my prayers tonight.

As I understand it, in order for an annulment to be granted, the Tribunal must determine that there was an impediment at the time of the attempted marriage. So, they may want to hear from people who knew your husband back then who knew of his homosexual tendencies. I don’t believe they will want any information from your children.

It appears in your case thought that your husbands testimony would be the primary one the Tribunal relies on.

 

[tamrk]

Thanks for your response. My husband had a relationship before we were married, so he was well aware of the “tendencies”. However, he kept this a secret from everyone. His parents have both passed away and the person he had the relationship with has also passed. He claims that no one else knew and I believe that to be true.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

God bless you both for trying. I presume your husband is somewhat honorable in that he will cooperate with you in this and will honestly discuss his upbringing and his dating history and the emotional and psychological struggle through school and college and dating to cover up and avoid and deny his tendencies.

The annulment procedure is very heavy on questions about upbringing and the dating/engagement and early marriage period. I suggest both of you write as much as you can remember and hold back nothing.

His testimony will be very important. Your memories of your early marriage and the details of how you found out and how you both have dealt with things will be important.

Good luck. Trust your priest. And if your husband can do this for you as he leaves you, thank him. Many of us had no cooperation from our exes as we sought to rebuild our lives.

The children will not need to testify. Maybe his old friends or your siblings have something to add. Trust me when people come out of the closet there is usually an army of people who suspected or who were running bets in the background who are not at all surprised. You may even have family or friends who “know” but have said nothing all these years because they think “well, they’ve been married 20 years. Maybe I was wrong.”

If you find you want to keep this private, congratulations. It isn’t others’ business. But you’ll need to discuss with the priest how much your tribunal will trust just your and his testimony in this delicate matter.

 

[JRKH]

The purpose of an annullment is not to determine whether it was OK to get a divorce but rather to determine if there was a valid marriage in the first place.
This is an important distinction that I want to make clear.

I was divorced after 19 years of marriage and did not seek an annulment for another 14 years or so ( I was a lapsed catholic). I mention this because I understand how difficult it can be to come up with witnesses.

The Tribunal will not likely be interested in testimony from your children. In my case they wanted names of people who knew us before and at the time we were married.

What they will seek to determine is whether there was a defect in the marriage at the time it was entered into. There is a listing of the types of defects around, and teh priest who is going to help you can answer this for you - But examples would be that one of the parties does not intend to have children, or does not intend to remain faithful, or is already married (not annulled from a previous marriage) etc.

You will receive a rather extensive questionaire to fill out (about 45-50 questions). This will cover all stages from courtship to breakup.
What I did was to read through and pray on the questions. I then typed all of the questions into my computer word processor to provide a second time to review the questions and also so I could easily edit my answers. Then I began answering the questions carefully and honestly.

Your ex should receive a similar questionaire, and any witnesses will also receive questionaires. Once all of the questionaires are returned, the Tribunal will review them and ask for any clarification or documentation if needed. They will then pass judgment on the case. After this the case is sent to another diocese where a second Tribunal reviews and passes jugement.

As for the specifics of you situation with your husband being homosexual I would not wish to comment as I have no experience with such a case.

I hope some of the above helps you.

Peace
James

 

[Mike_SFO_1]

Were you married in the Catholic Church or did you get married in a Protestant Church. If you were married outside the Church it is an Annulment due to “Improper Form” and is a quick (and reasonably priced) Annulment.

Peace,

Mike

 

[belmontmac]

I think it depends on the diocese. My dad just got a lightening fast annulment, less than 7 months start to finish. No witness testimony, nothing, just a letter to my mom stating her marriage was found to be invalid. She’s still scratching her head.

 

[tamrk]

Thanks so much for all of the responses. It is so helpful to know there are people praying for me!

In response to one comment, yes, I was married in the Church.

I guess I am just nervous about the witness thing. I won’t have any witnesses to offer. I have only told a very few friends and they did not know my husband before we were married so they cannot speak to the situation.

The few close friends he has told have been shocked, so I can’t imagine who he would have as a witness.

I am also nervous about answering the questions. If I had any clue this was an issue, I certainly wouldn’t have married him. I may have been naive, so I guess I wouldn’t have known what to look for. The last thing I want to do is rehash the whole thing. I am hoping that the annulment process helps me to heal and move on, not dredge up old hurts.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

If I had any clue this was an issue, I certainly wouldn’t have married him. I may have been naive, so I guess I wouldn’t have known what to look for. The last thing I want to do is rehash the whole thing. I am hoping that the annulment process helps me to heal and move on, not dredge up old hurts.

It will be very healing for you. But you’ll have to dredge some stuff up. But it won’t be a useless exercise. A lot of my bad dreams finally ended after I put all the stuff down on paper and sent it to the tribunal.

Tribunals recognize that your marriage vow was conditional on your husband being heterosexual. Your naivete and his deception/self deception play a huge part in invalidating the consent you gave on your wedding day.

 

[JRKH]

Thanks so much for all of the responses. It is so helpful to know there are people praying for me!

In response to one comment, yes, I was married in the Church.

I guess I am just nervous about the witness thing. I won’t have any witnesses to offer. I have only told a very few friends and they did not know my husband before we were married so they cannot speak to the situation.

The few close friends he has told have been shocked, so I can’t imagine who he would have as a witness.

I am also nervous about answering the questions. If I had any clue this was an issue, I certainly wouldn’t have married him. I may have been naive, so I guess I wouldn’t have known what to look for. The last thing I want to do is rehash the whole thing. I am hoping that the annulment process helps me to heal and move on, not dredge up old hurts.

I’m afraid that there will inevitably be some dredging up. At least that was my experience.
However, don’t be afraid. It will hurt but it will also heal.

Peace
James

 

[chevalier]

My husband has agreed to cooperate with the tribunal. But, how can we call witnesses?

Just name them - either in a form you’ll be given to fill in, or, if you’ll be writing freehand, just name them there (along with domicile).

I certainly will not allow my children to be called in.

The one who’s 21 could legally be an attorney in most English-speaking countries, much more so be witness. The one who’s 17 is practically an adult.

What could they say anyway?

That dad came in and said, “I’m sorry. I can’t be with your mum. I’m homosexual.” Sounds like very important testimony. Much better than people repeating rumours.

Anyone else out there dealth with or heard of this type of situation? I cannot find anything in my reading that deals with this specifically. Any advice would be most appreciated.

Any Catholic bookshop should have something on the subject. Possibly even those tiny ones are located within or close to a parish church.

What else? Well, don’t limit your witnesses or evidence just because you would rather not use it. I’ve even seen lawyers do that and I can’t recall myself ever agreeing with that idea. The cost to pay for choosing not to introduce particular witnesses or evidence can be very high: basically, you can lose the case. You’re already in a relatively good situation (notwithstanding the misfortune, obviously) with your husband agreeing to cooperate. Don’t waste your chances by not allowing particular people or particular items (letters, photos, whatever else might be evidence) to be called. If you really have a good reason, just indicate it to the tribunal, asking not to use that witness or evidence if it’s not necessary (that is only if your case can’t be proven by other means). It might be possible for your husband’s testimony alone to suffice, but we don’t know that.

 

[Phemie]

In your case I think they would look at defect of consent. In other words, if you had KNOWN he was gay would you have agreed to marry him? Since he didn’t reveal what he knew about himself you were unable to give full consent to the marriage.

If he’d never had a homosexual relationship and had only come to full understanding of his homosexuality after your marriage it would be different,

 

[Ailina]

Hello All!
I am new to this forum and have a question for those who have been through or have knowledge of annulment proceedings.

The backstory: After 20years of marriage, my husband revealed to me that he was homosexual. It was a shock to say the least. As far as I know, he was faithful during the marriage. We stayed together for 5 more years and tried counseling but 6 months ago he moved out and asked for a divorce. It should be final in about a month.

I have spoken to my priest and he told me to get back with him once the divorce is final and he would walk me through the process. I have done lots of reading on the process of annulments and I am sure it varies some from diocese to diocese. However, most information I have read states that the tribunal investigates and does interviews and calls witnesses. This may be an issue because very few people know about the reason behind the divorce. Our kids (21 and 17) do know, because I insisted that their father be honest with them. The priest we did conseling with knows along with a very few friends/family.

My husband has agreed to cooperate with the tribunal. But, how can we call witnesses? I certainly will not allow my children to be called in. What could they say anyway?

Anyone else out there dealth with or heard of this type of situation? I cannot find anything in my reading that deals with this specifically. Any advice would be most appreciated.

P.S. I am a cradle Catholic. My husband was protestant when we were married but converted to Catholicism about 12 years ago. He has stopped attending Mass.

None of the witnesses for my annulment knew about the activities and mindset of my ex-husband either. However, I did have some physical evidence and some recollections of life when we were engaged, and from early in our marriage that, in hindsight, were good indicators of his psyche. He also went in for the annulment interview, although he didn’t really want to. Because we were married for over 15 years, a pyschologist was called in to assess our interviews and made a judgement based on that, which probably influenced the Tribunal in making their decision.

If your soon to be ex is willing to admit his pre-marital homosexual activity, as well as his life-long leanings that way, you probably have a good case for being granted a decree of nullity without having to worry too much about witnesses. Some people lead very secret inner lives that nobody knows about unless they tell someone.

 

[xpistou]

The judge is obligated to rely heavily on witness testimony. Even if both parties tell the same story, this does not constitute full proof. However, there are three different types of proof: two or more witnesses; one expert witness; or documentary proof. Only when one or more of these types of proof corroborate the allegation of nullity can the judge safely come to the moral certitude necessary to declare the marriage invalid.

Sometimes it is impossible to find witnesses. And sometimes judges have to say that it was not proven that the marriage was invalid from the beginning because there was no witness testimony. This can be very hard to handle. I know that everyone talks about how healing the annulment process can be, but sometimes when a negative decision is rendered it can also be devastating. I personally am of the mindset that if you don’t need an annulment, i.e., if you are not planning on remarrying, then don’t apply for one.

 

[JRKH]

The judge is obligated to rely heavily on witness testimony. Even if both parties tell the same story, this does not constitute full proof. However, there are three different types of proof: two or more witnesses; one expert witness; or documentary proof. Only when one or more of these types of proof corroborate the allegation of nullity can the judge safely come to the moral certitude necessary to declare the marriage invalid.

Sometimes it is impossible to find witnesses. And sometimes judges have to say that it was not proven that the marriage was invalid from the beginning because there was no witness testimony. This can be very hard to handle. I know that everyone talks about how healing the annulment process can be, but sometimes when a negative decision is rendered it can also be devastating. I personally am of the mindset that if you don’t need an annulment, i.e., if you are not planning on remarrying, then don’t apply for one.

I must disagree with your last statement. It is much better to know now, regardless. How could it possibly be better to wait until your thinking about remarrying to seek the annulment and be turned down? Such a discovery after finding a new love would be far more difficult than learning now.
Discovering now whether you can remarry is much better regardless of the hurt it might involve.

Peace
James

 

[xpistou]

I must disagree with your last statement. It is much better to know now, regardless. How could it possibly be better to wait until your thinking about remarrying to seek the annulment and be turned down? Such a discovery after finding a new love would be far more difficult than learning now.
Discovering now whether you can remarry is much better regardless of the hurt it might involve.

Peace
James

Yes, if you are planning on remarrying even if it is only a future hope then apply for an annulment now rather than later. However, I know of some people who have had no intention of remarrying at all and yet applied for an annulment because it was supposed to be “healing”. But all they found was extreme pain and frustration that witness testimony was next to impossible.

Somehow we have this idea in America that if you are Catholic and if you have received a civil divorce, then you need an annulment. Some people even think that they have to have an annulment before they can receive communion simply because they are divorced.

We are in a situation now where many people mistakenly confuse ultimate happiness with marital happiness. How many people in our culture run from one marriage to another to another searching for happiness. In the end sometimes it is better to remain single.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, if you are planning on remarrying even if it is only a future hope then apply for an annulment now rather than later. However, I know of some people who have had no intention of remarrying at all and yet applied for an annulment because it was supposed to be “healing”. But all they found was extreme pain and frustration that witness testimony was next to impossible.

I understand the difficulty with witness testimony because when I finally got around to seeking an annulment it had been some 34 years since the wedding and I had already been remarried outside the church for 14 years. The only witnesses I could come up with who knew us before the marriage were immediate family.
Also it was difficult, and painful, to try and fill out the questionaire honestly because it required a lot of self evaluation. Painful? Yes. Frustrating? Sometimes, when I had to face my own sins and failures. Healing? Absolutely. It provided a wonderful experience of spiritual growth for me AND allowed me, and my dear wife, to return to the sacraments.

As to the matter of whether you wish to or plan on getting remarried, I would say it is still better to go ahead and and get your status clarified. I would imagine there are a great many people out there who, after getting divorced, swear they will never get remarried but then meet someone wonderful and wish to change their mind.

Somehow we have this idea in America that if you are Catholic and if you have received a civil divorce, then you need an annulment. Some people even think that they have to have an annulment before they can receive communion simply because they are divorced.

Yes it is sad that there are misunderstandings about this.

We are in a situation now where many people mistakenly confuse ultimate happiness with marital happiness. How many people in our culture run from one marriage to another to another searching for happiness. In the end sometimes it is better to remain single.

I agree.
But thankfully in this case I don’t think the OP is the type of person you describe above.

Peace
James

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I personally am of the mindset that if you don’t need an annulment, i.e., if you are not planning on remarrying, then don’t apply for one.

This post actually shows WHY one should apply as soon as possible. Before witnesses die, disappear or lose their own memories.

Whether one ever marries again, there can be a lot of healing in realizing you don’t have a spiritual marriage bond with someone who betrayed you or mistreated you or went on to have a few new spouses after you.

Someone who has gone through a bad marriage already is an expert at dealing with frustration and disappointment. The annulment process is healing if only the self-discovery and awareness it brings about.

You can often tell those who never went through it. They keep marrying the same kind of person and wonder why their 3rd, 4th and 5th attempts at marriage fail too.

 

[chevalier]

I agree with Liberanos. Witnesses sometimes die or move or are otherwise inaccessible, same with evidence. Mental and personality examinations and proofs may be harder to carry out. Plus, it’s true one doesn’t know what the future will bring. Besides, if I had reasons to doubt the validity of a marriage, I would attempt to convalidate it - or, where absent will of reconciliation - challenge right away. Somehow, I’d feel bad letting it lie.

I think it depends on the diocese. My dad just got a lightening fast annulment, less than 7 months start to finish. No witness testimony, nothing, just a letter to my mom stating her marriage was found to be invalid. She’s still scratching her head.

For two Catholics, marriage outside the canonical form, that is e.g. witnessed by a judge or mayor or some other such person, absent dispensation, is invalid and doesn’t even a judicial procedure to establish that nullity. The more informal administrative procedure which is used doesn’t have the requirements of a normal trial and so it can be done without notifying the other spouse and giving him/her the opportunity to participate. These matters are sometimes still given to tribunals to handle, instead of leaving them with non-lawyers, thus when it comes from a tribunal, uses words like “found null” and contains seals and whatnot, it can be mistaken for a normal decree of nullity.

Yes, if you are planning on remarrying even if it is only a future hope then apply for an annulment now rather than later. However, I know of some people who have had no intention of remarrying at all and yet applied for an annulment because it was supposed to be “healing”. But all they found was extreme pain and frustration that witness testimony was next to impossible.

Somehow we have this idea in America that if you are Catholic and if you have received a civil divorce, then you need an annulment. Some people even think that they have to have an annulment before they can receive communion simply because they are divorced.

There’s always the sacramental and spiritual bond if the marriage is valid and sacramental, even if a civil divorce has been given. There are also some concrete obligations. For example, the acceptable causes of separation may cease and in that situation, parties would be obliged to resume community of life (e.g. someone was abusive but stopped being so and is now verified okay to live with and cheating didn’t happen to warrant permanent separation). Just an example.

 

[tedfay]

I have been divorced. My first, attempted marriage was declared null. My putative ex-wife also declared herself to be homosexual and chose to separate in order to live out that life.

My experience with the anullment process is largely what others have reported. You will receive a very detailed questionairre - and it will ask very, very personal questions. My advice is to answer them as fully, completely, and honestly as you can. It will likely take you days. It might make you suffer. I recommend writing the answers in a separate document, and then re-reading and revising them at least a few days later, before you submit them.

Remember, you are asking the Church to declare your marriage never happened. That’s a very grave matter. You want to be sure that you are has honest and complete as possible so that you may feel secure in relying on the Church’s ultimate determination.

You will also be required to have witnesses submit responses. You should encourage any witnesses to be thoughtful, complete, and totally honest. I would avoid having them share their testimony with you.

One last thing, it was suggested that you wait until you find another potential spouse before applying for an anullment. I couldn’t disagree more strongly. I didn’t wait, and neither should you.

For one, having a potential spouse waiting will cause the judges to look at your application with more suspicion that you are merely trying to be self serving in your statements. If you apply before finding anyone, then you don’t have this hanging over your head.

For two, some anullments take years. If you do find someone else eventually, the anullment will hopefully either be done or at least well under way.

For three, having the declaration of nullity can bring you peace of mind in that there was no real divorce at all - thereby removing any possibility from your mind that you were at fault for an actual divorce.

I’ll end by urging you to do penance for your putative husband. Fast and say extra prayers. Go before the blessed scarament and pray for him. This man is embarking on a course that could lead to his eternal damnation, because if he engages in homosexual acts then he will be performing objective (if not subjective) mortal sins. No one can judge the state of a person’s soul other than God, but Church’s teachings on homosexual acts couldn’t be more clear - and committing them is literally taking a risk with fire.

I desperately wish I had fought much more strongly for my first putative marriage. While it’s been 12 years and I am now married to another woman and have children with her, I still am gravely concerned about my ex-wife and her choices. The last thing I want for her is eternal separation from God.

Who knows, maybe you will be able to reconcile with him if God can reach into his soul and cause him to abandon his terrible choices.

In any case, know that there are others out there who have gone through what you are going through. I will pray for you.

God Bless