Annulment question

[mgstf]

I am new to the forum. please excuse me if I have posted in the wrong area.

I am in the process of seeking an annulment, and have grown very disillusioned by the process from start to finish. I understand and am in accord with the Tribunal wanting to thoroughly examine all issues pertinent to the case, but have seen almost no effort on the part of the diocese to seek an understanding of very complex and personal issues. I had once understood that the process took so long because of their need to make a sincere effort to discover the truth, but now almost 2 years into the process and virtually no transparency on anything that has been done, I just want the process over with. It has now been over 6 months since all testimonies have been in and the materials were sent to the Defender of the Bond. I have no idea of what is being argued on behalf of my appeal, nor do I have any idea of what the Defender of The Bond is seeing about the case. I know that the case should soon be on the list for the judges decision, but am told there is no way to know how long it will sit there. At this stage I am considering withdrawing my request and making a new request when I move to a different diocese. My question is this: Is there anything in Canon law that limits how long the judge can take to make his decision?

 

[AKDee]

I can’t answer your final question, but my husband and I went through the process of getting an annulment for him prior to our marriage. It took 11 months despite the canon lawyer priest we saw stating the case was a “slam dunk” (his previous marriage had several irregularities that did make it self-evident that it was invalid). I know that’s not as long as what you are going through, but remain patient. However- it was suggested to us by that same priest that we call every 3 months or so and inquire about it. An inquiry automatically rotates it to the top of the pile. It could be that your diocese is overwhelmed and that you need to be shuffled back up. You might also ask the Tribunal person you speak with if there is anything can you do that would help expedite the process, they may give you some local tips that help with your particular diocese.

 

[1ke]

I am new to the forum. please excuse me if I have posted in the wrong area.

I am in the process of seeking an annulment, and have grown very disillusioned by the process from start to finish. I understand and am in accord with the Tribunal wanting to thoroughly examine all issues pertinent to the case, but have seen almost no effort on the part of the diocese to seek an understanding of very complex and personal issues. I had once understood that the process took so long because of their need to make a sincere effort to discover the truth, but now almost 2 years into the process and virtually no transparency on anything that has been done, I just want the process over with. It has now been over 6 months since all testimonies have been in and the materials were sent to the Defender of the Bond. I have no idea of what is being argued on behalf of my appeal, nor do I have any idea of what the Defender of The Bond is seeing about the case. I know that the case should soon be on the list for the judges decision, but am told there is no way to know how long it will sit there. At this stage I am considering withdrawing my request and making a new request when I move to a different diocese. My question is this: Is there anything in Canon law that limits how long the judge can take to make his decision?

I’m sorry that you are frustrated and that it appears to be taking a very long time. It is difficult to give any opinions, because the size of the staff and number of cases in a diocese greatly impacts their timeline.

I would urge you to talk this over with your advocate.

You can contact the St Joseph Foundation for advice/assistance. I don’t suggest seeking it here, as no one is really competent to assist you (other than a very few actual canon lawyers who sometimes post here) and you may get inaccurate (but well-meaning) advice.

stjosephcanonlaw.com/

 

[EricF]

My wife’s took three years, and was supposedly a slam dunk. I understand the frustration and disillusionment only too well. Many times I was ready to chuck the whole thing.

 

[7_Sorrows]

My wife’s took three years, and was supposedly a slam dunk. I understand the frustration and disillusionment only too well. Many times I was ready to chuck the whole thing.

I have experienced the same frustration and disillusionment. I am only 10 months into
the process. I hope mine won’t take another 2 years!

 

[dans0622]

… but am told there is no way to know how long it will sit there. At this stage I am considering withdrawing my request and making a new request when I move to a different diocese. My question is this: Is there anything in Canon law that limits how long the judge can take to make his decision?

Hello,

I would advise against withdrawing the case, unless you have reason to believe that the decision will not be to your liking.

Feel free to call the Tribunal for an update or have your advocate (provided that you have one) do so. You can ask the same question directly and see what the answer is.

Dan

 

[mgstf]

I have written asking for updates. (They do not accept phone calls, understandably) . They offer no estimate whatsoever as to how long it may or may not sit on the judges list. I do not know if we are talking days , months or years.

I have no clue as to which way the decision may go, but I have lost almost all confidence in the whole business. I am certain that they have not explored any of the issues to a serious degree as that would have required follow up questions and explanations that could not possibly be answered on their length restricted application forms.

Whatever decision they come up with I will view as a pure random luck of the draw thing.

Instead of having confidence that the Diocese put in the effort necessary to ascertain the truth, I find myself simply being tortured by a lengthy, secretive, impersonal bureaucratic process that exists for its own sake, certainly not for the sake of discovering truth.

 

[dans0622]

I have written asking for updates. (They do not accept phone calls, understandably) . They offer no estimate whatsoever as to how long it may or may not sit on the judges list. I do not know if we are talking days , months or years.

I have no clue as to which way the decision may go, but I have lost almost all confidence in the whole business. I am certain that they have not explored any of the issues to a serious degree as that would have required follow up questions and explanations that could not possibly be answered on their length restricted application forms.

Whatever decision they come up with I will view as a pure random luck of the draw thing.

Instead of having confidence that the Diocese put in the effort necessary to ascertain the truth, I find myself simply being tortured by a lengthy, secretive, impersonal bureaucratic process that exists for its own sake, certainly not for the sake of discovering truth.

Personally, (stated as someone who’s job does *not *include taking phone calls from Parties), I don’t see what is “understandable” about not accepting calls. Anyway, I could say more but it would be fruitless and probably inappropriate on more than one level.

You can consider talking with a real-life canon lawyer, perhaps, who can provide some practical assistance.

Dan

 

[mgstf]

I (naively perhaps) trusted that the diocese would treat this matter seriously and with some level of compassion for the parties involved. I really didn’t think a canon lawyer would be needed. Now I am wondering if that was a mistake that I will have to pay for the rest of my life.

 

[1ke]

I (naively perhaps) trusted that the diocese would treat this matter seriously and with some level of compassion for the parties involved. I really didn’t think a canon lawyer would be needed. Now I am wondering if that was a mistake that I will have to pay for the rest of my life.

I wouldn’t jump to the conclusion that they are not taking it seriously or have no compassion for your situation. Again, you don’t know the staffing level or number of cases pending with the tribunal. In my experience, diocesan employees have a heart for ministry, are over worked, and under paid.

Dan is a canon lawyer, he offers good advice. Talk to your advocate first, then the tribunal directly.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

OP, I feel your pain.

I came to the Church with what should have been the easiest slam dunk annulment in all of history. 2 unbaptized non Christians with infidelity and no real sincere desire to honor marriage for what it was. I heard this was a “slam dunk” and it would be handled at diocese level which meant 3-6 months.

But Pope Francis made changes to the annulment process and by the time I put my packet in they were backlogged by thousands of cases. So a 3 month deal turned into a year long wait.

I do have to say the marriage tribunal was nice enough to give me updates when i called…that is whenever they actually answered the phone which was half the time.

I would NOT withdraw and start over. The new diocese you attend on applying at may be backed up as well.

God bless you on your journey.

 

[mgstf]

Well, it is true I may be jumping to conclusions that they are lacking in compassion. their lack of consideration may in fact be due to being overwhelmed. still … A wild ballpark? Might be a month? might be two? surely they could give some estimate. As for not seeking the truth in the matters at hand, that I won’t withdraw from. There is absolutely no way that strangers looking at a 4 page application dealing with complex personal relationships of people they have never met could come to any meaningful conclusions without further inquiry .In nearly 2 years there has been no interactions asking for further explanation or insights.

I am still not sure of whether I should withdraw my application. The only thing I am sure of is that the entire process is a sham that can’t possibly bring about the stated goal of determining the validity of the vows.

I only posted to see if there were any time limits set within canon law for the performance of these processes. I did not come to vent, but find it hard to resist. Rather than a process that I had hoped would help bring about a fresh restart in my faith, I am growing bitter.

 

[Chatter163]

Have you asked your pastor for assistance? He can make an inquiry.

 

[AKDee]

I have written asking for updates. (They do not accept phone calls, understandably) . They offer no estimate whatsoever as to how long it may or may not sit on the judges list. I do not know if we are talking days , months or years.

I have no clue as to which way the decision may go, but I have lost almost all confidence in the whole business. I am certain that they have not explored any of the issues to a serious degree as that would have required follow up questions and explanations that could not possibly be answered on their length restricted application forms.

Whatever decision they come up with I will view as a pure random luck of the draw thing.

Instead of having confidence that the Diocese put in the effort necessary to ascertain the truth, I find myself simply being tortured by a lengthy, secretive, impersonal bureaucratic process that exists for its own sake, certainly not for the sake of discovering truth.

I have no idea what process they’ve followed- I would have thought the annulment process would be rather similar from diocese to diocese. In ours, we met with our priest (who also happened to be a canon lawyer). He essentially interviewed my fiance re his prior marriage and the issues that led to its demise. Then there was a questionnaire that had to be filled out by my fiance, and another by a witness (in this case, his mother). They also notified his ex-wife that he was pursuing an annulment and that gave her the opportunity to challenge it if she wanted. This was before the Pope streamlined the process, so it had to go to the next archdiocese for the traditional challenges. Eventually it came back to our diocese and a declaration of nullity was granted.

Has your experience been largely different? Did they not do the initial interview, which would allow for a great deal more detail to be given than the questionnaire would allow?

I know it’s hard, but I also believe the Church is trying to ensure that it grants a declaration of nullity to marriages that were truly invalid, and not to marriages that were not. That process takes time. We became frustrated as well, especially after being told it was a “slam dunk”. But we persevered and are now married. I pray you get your declaration of nullity soon.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Well, it is true I may be jumping to conclusions that they are lacking in compassion. their lack of consideration may in fact be due to being overwhelmed. still … A wild ballpark? Might be a month? might be two? surely they could give some estimate. As for not seeking the truth in the matters at hand, that I won’t withdraw from. There is absolutely no way that strangers looking at a 4 page application dealing with complex personal relationships of people they have never met could come to any meaningful conclusions without further inquiry .In nearly 2 years there has been no interactions asking for further explanation or insights.

I am still not sure of whether I should withdraw my application. The only thing I am sure of is that the entire process is a sham that can’t possibly bring about the stated goal of determining the validity of the vows.

I only posted to see if there were any time limits set within canon law for the performance of these processes. I did not come to vent, but find it hard to resist. Rather than a process that I had hoped would help bring about a fresh restart in my faith, I am growing bitter.

Been through the annulment process. Given that you are willing to submit to the church’s authority and abide by their decision, that is an act of faith. Of Christ having established a Church and given it authority in these matters, and to guide it into all truth. This can be a fresh restart to your faith, that submission as a basis to build on. It doesn’t take an answer to your petition for a declaration of nullity first.

I’m sorry the process has been difficult for you. I found it helpful in that it was a very confusing time for me and the process-- including reading the testimonies and decision–
helped bring a bit of clarity and a way of truly letting go of my ex-wife. It has cleared the road for her to reconcile with the church and remarry, should she choose to do so. The time it took did keep me from rushing into things and risk hurting others. Surprisingly, the answer was based on grounds other than what I submitted. These people, with all their experience in viewing accounts of other marriages saw it in a way I was unable. Were also willing to put in the effort to see it with fresh eyes vice just focusing on my perspective.

I will pray for you and yours. Try not to be disheartened

 

[mgstf]

AKDee you said

“I also believe the Church is trying to ensure that it grants a declaration of nullity to marriages that were truly invalid, and not to marriages that were not. That process takes time.”

I held firmly to that belief for decades. After my experience I no longer do. How much time does it take to do precisely nothing? I had a space limited application, and two discussions in almost two years. There have been no new questions. There have been no requests for more information or witnesses. I have not been included in any discussions about how my case will be presented. I have been informed of the cause they are using, and I disagree with the cause. How they came to want to use that cause, I have no clue, and they will not discuss it with me. I am not allowed to see my case as presented to the judge nor am I allowed to see the work of the Defender of the Bond. It will be presented to the judge without my wife or I having any (name removed by moderator)ut or ability to check for even basic errors or omissions. I am told that if it is rejected, that I can appeal, but only by bringing new information to light. But I am not even allowed to know what information is being presented! I never had anything but the highest regard for the Diocese. Those days are long gone after this ordeal. I just want them to hurry up and roll their dice so I can get on with my life.

 

[dans0622]

… I have not been included in any discussions about how my case will be presented. I have been informed of the cause they are using, and I disagree with the cause. How they came to want to use that cause, I have no clue, and they will not discuss it with me. I am not allowed to see my case as presented to the judge nor am I allowed to see the work of the Defender of the Bond. It will be presented to the judge without my wife or I having any (name removed by moderator)ut or ability to check for even basic errors or omissions. I am told that if it is rejected, that I can appeal, but only by bringing new information to light. But I am not even allowed to know what information is being presented! …

These are serious concerns. I do advise trying to get in touch with a canon lawyer. If the diocese/tribunal won’t provide names of competent persons and/or provide you with a canon lawyer (which they should do), you’d have to look for one yourself. If you wish, you can send me a private message and I can see if I can connect you with someone.

Dan

 

[mgstf]

Thank you Dan. I know now that I should have had a canon lawyer represent us from the start. At this point, frankly I am scared to do anything. The case is now on the judges list waiting a decision. I am afraid that if I get someone involved now that it will fall off the list and it will languish even longer. (or worse? maybe get a spiteful rejection? - I hate to think that, but I have ZERO trust in the process now)

Though no one has answered my question that I started this thread with ( is there anything in Canon law regarding time limits once a case is complete and awaiting a decision?) , I guess the answer is probably ‘no’ .

As I guess all can see from the venting I have done here
that this whole torturous process has become a serious test of my faith in times when my faith is already under pressure from the years of family problems. I know that I am not the only one who upon facing this situation is tempted just to walk away from the whole mess wishing I had never started it.

 

[Herculees]

I am new to the forum. please excuse me if I have posted in the wrong area.

I am in the process of seeking an annulment, and have grown very disillusioned by the process from start to finish. I understand and am in accord with the Tribunal wanting to thoroughly examine all issues pertinent to the case, but have seen almost no effort on the part of the diocese to seek an understanding of very complex and personal issues. I had once understood that the process took so long because of their need to make a sincere effort to discover the truth, but now almost 2 years into the process and virtually no transparency on anything that has been done, I just want the process over with. It has now been over 6 months since all testimonies have been in and the materials were sent to the Defender of the Bond. I have no idea of what is being argued on behalf of my appeal, nor do I have any idea of what the Defender of The Bond is seeing about the case. I know that the case should soon be on the list for the judges decision, but am told there is no way to know how long it will sit there. At this stage I am considering withdrawing my request and making a new request when I move to a different diocese. My question is this: Is there anything in Canon law that limits how long the judge can take to make his decision?

I can NOT speak to whether there is a law that limits how long the judge can take to make his decision, but in regards to thoughts about pulling out of the process, I HIGHLY advise you NOT to pull out of the process.

It does NOT matter where you live! The tribunal that makes the decision is the one that oversees the cases for the parish that you were married at.

Example: You live in the U.S. but married in Ireland

In this example, even though you live in the U.S. it would be the tribunal in Ireland.
The tribunal court would be the one within the diocese the church in Ireland is. It wouldn’t matter if you moved to Greece, Italy, Asia, or any other place the decision
would still rest with the particular diocese in Ireland. Of course, if you are unhappy with the decision made you can always appeal to the Vatican.

My prayers are with you as you go through your annulment process. Pax et Bonum!

 

[dans0622]

…
Though no one has answered my question that I started this thread with ( is there anything in Canon law regarding time limits once a case is complete and awaiting a decision?) , I guess the answer is probably ‘no’ .

…

As far as that goes: yes, canon law mentions time limits. Cases are to take no more than a year (canon 1453) and the impression in law is that the Sentence will be written within a couple of months after the “observations” of the Defender and other “pleadings” are submitted (canons 1609-1610). Those observations and pleadings should also be completed within a month or so but this is not defined in law (c. 1601; the Judge has to give enough time for submission as well as possible responses and a final response by the Defender).

In practice, though, time limits are not “enforced.”

According to what you have said, the long delays are one of the lesser, procedural problems in your case (in my opinion).

Dan