Annulment Question.

[kayla]

My annulment from my first marriage was just granted after almost a 2 year wait…Yeppie!
My second marriage took place outside the church and now plan to have that marriage convalidated in the Church as soon as we can get a date set up.
My question is this, since we have already had our wedding a few years ago, when would we celebrate our anniversary of our marriage? the actual wedding date or the convalidation date??

 

[Catholic2003]

The convalidation date.

 

[mosher]

Catholic2003:

The convalidation date.

I would make him give you a gift on both dates …

But it is probably proper to celebrate in on the convalidation date.

 

[mikew262]

kayla:

My annulment from my first marriage was just granted after almost a 2 year wait…Yeppie!
My second marriage took place outside the church and now plan to have that marriage convalidated in the Church as soon as we can get a date set up.
My question is this, since we have already had our wedding a few years ago, when would we celebrate our anniversary of our marriage? the actual wedding date or the convalidation date??

The actual wedding date.

My wife and I were in the same boat as you. We were originally married by a Lutheran Minister because my wife’s annulment from her 1st marriage hadn’t come through yet. We were later married in the Catholic Church. We considered ourself married at the 1st ceremony, legally, in our hearts, and before God.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

mosher:

I would make him give you a gift on both dates …

But it is probably proper to celebrate in on the convalidation date.

I agree; celebrate both dates. You will note that Jesus was criticized for never missing a chance to go to a party; so be like Him.

 

[cameron_lansing]

mikew262:

The actual wedding date.

My wife and I were in the same boat as you. We were originally married by a Lutheran Minister because my wife’s annulment from her 1st marriage hadn’t come through yet. We were later married in the Catholic Church. We considered ourself married at the 1st ceremony, legally, in our hearts, and before God.

Unfortunately if someone believes that the first wedding ceremony (referred to as “the actual wedding date”) was sufficient to create marriage with its rights and duties, that person will fail to place consent by a new act of the will at the convalidation. If there is no new act of consent, the convalidation will be insufficient or defective. (I’m saying that with canon lawyer and tribunal hat on. We decree nullity sentences in cases where this has happened.)

So, Kayla, congratulations! But be sure to discuss with the priest or deacon who will witness your convalidation exactly what it is that you will be doing in giving this consent. You are not getting a stamp of approval by the Church or God on a valid marriage that exists already. You wil be entering a valid marriage with each other for the first time. It is important for the purpose of giving valid marital consent that you understand that.

Again, congrats!

 

[mikew262]

cameron_lansing:

Unfortunately if someone believes that the first wedding ceremony (referred to as “the actual wedding date”) was sufficient to create marriage with its rights and duties, that person will fail to place consent by a new act of the will at the convalidation. If there is no new act of consent, the convalidation will be insufficient or defective. (I’m saying that with canon lawyer and tribunal hat on. We decree nullity sentences in cases where this has happened.)

I hear what you are saying, but I disagree with you, no matter what canon law says. My wife and I both believe our 1st Christian ceremony was blessed by God; no question in our minds. However, both of us being catholic, we wanted our marriage to be sanctioned by the Catholic Church as well, so that is why we had the 2nd ceremony.

God presided at both ceremonies and that’s good enough for us, and I suspect with him too.

Kayla, I don’t know if your 1st ceremony was a Christian one or not. If it was, then in my mind, God was present and blessed it. IMO, pray and let your conscience be your guide on what date you hinge your marriage on. As you can tell, the Church and I don’t agree on this one (assuming the last poster was correct).

 

[maryjk]

When we had our convalidation, our priest told us to celebrate our first date. And to say that we had been married since our first date.

Why?

Do you have children? I do. So I have been married 14 years, and my son is 10. Not married almost 3 years with a ten year old.

To people that I know, I tell them that we were married twice. Once for the state, then we let God into our lives and were married in the Church.

 

[mikew262]

maryjk:

When we had our convalidation, our priest told us to celebrate our first date. And to say that we had been married since our first date.

Why?

Do you have children? I do. So I have been married 14 years, and my son is 10. Not married almost 3 years with a ten year old.

To people that I know, I tell them that we were married twice. Once for the state, then we let God into our lives and were married in the Church.

We were in a similar situation, as far as the kids were concerned. Your priest used compassion and common sense. He was correct in my mind.

 

[puzzleannie]

many of our couples preparing for convalidation try to have the ceremony on the anniversary of the civil marriage.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

mikew262:

I hear what you are saying, but I disagree with you, no matter what canon law says. My wife and I both believe our 1st Christian ceremony was blessed by God; no question in our minds. However, both of us being catholic, we wanted our marriage to be sanctioned by the Catholic Church as well, so that is why we had the 2nd ceremony.

God presided at both ceremonies and that’s good enough for us, and I suspect with him too.

Kayla, I don’t know if your 1st ceremony was a Christian one or not. If it was, then in my mind, God was present and blessed it. IMO, pray and let your conscience be your guide on what date you hinge your marriage on. As you can tell, the Church and I don’t agree on this one (assuming the last poster was correct).

There are no second ceremonies of Marriage in the Catholic Church. There is only one valid ceremony for each instance of the valid celebration of the Sacrament. There also are no “split” ceremonies or “shared” ceremonies between Catholic priests or Deacons and other clergy.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

maryjk:

When we had our convalidation, our priest told us to celebrate our first date. And to say that we had been married since our first date.

Why?

Do you have children? I do. So I have been married 14 years, and my son is 10. Not married almost 3 years with a ten year old.

To people that I know, I tell them that we were married twice. Once for the state, then we let God into our lives and were married in the Church.

If your first Marriage 14 years ago, was valid then there would be no need for a convalidation!

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

mikew262:

We were in a similar situation, as far as the kids were concerned. Your priest used compassion and common sense. He was correct in my mind.

Using compassionate terminology does not validate the errors that were made, no valid Marriage took place the first time the Marriage was attempted to be celebrated.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

puzzleannie:

many of our couples preparing for convalidation try to have the ceremony on the anniversary of the civil marriage.

They must clearly understand that this is NOT a “renewal” of vows. But entering into a valid Marriage for the first time.

 

[maryjk]

Br. Rich SFO:

If your first Marriage 14 years ago, was valid then there would be no need for a convalidation!

If you notice, I didn’t say the first marriage was valid, in the Church.

It is civilly valid. My husband is assumed the father of our child. He did not have to sign for or test for paternity. When a doctor’s office asks how long I have been married, I tell them 14 years. I do not say 3, then explain about a Catholic convalidation.

I said that we tell people that we have been married for 14 years. It is really not anyone’s concern when we were married in the Church. Only God’s.

But it would cause concern if I told people that I have been married for 3 years and I have a 10 year old.

The question was, “When should we celebrate our anniversary?” I said, I celebrate the first, because I have a child.

 

[Catholic2003]

mikew262:

As you can tell, the Church and I don’t agree on this one (assuming the last poster was correct).

Since that poster was Deacon Cameron, that is a pretty safe assumption.

Here is what Father Lawrence Wrenn says about defective convalidation in his book The Invalid Marriage:

In such cases, therefore, it is required that both parties a) personally recognize the invalidity or at least the probable invalidity of the former marriage and b) transfer the marital right to their partner, i.e., not merely confirm or reiterate a former exchange of rights but actually give a new marital consent distinct from the former inefficacious one.

This does not usually involve a problem where both parties are Catholic but these requirements demand more than can reasonably be expected of most non-Catholics. Consequently many convalidations involving a non-Catholic can be proven invalid on the ground that the non-Catholic party either failed to recognize the original union as invalid or failed to give new consent.

Finally, it must be remembered that in these cases it is not necessary to prove simulation, i.e. exclusion of marital consent by a positive act of the will; but it is only necessary to prove the negative omission of the new consent required for a valid convalidation.

 

[mikew262]

puzzleannie:

many of our couples preparing for convalidation try to have the ceremony on the anniversary of the civil marriage.

Makes sense.

 

[mikew262]

Br. Rich SFO:

Using compassionate terminology does not validate the errors that were made, no valid Marriage took place the first time the Marriage was attempted to be celebrated.

In your opinion, not mine. Be careful here, you are in sensitive territory.

Not valid to the Church? Ok, I’ll admit that. Valid in all other ways ( including to God)? IMO, yes.

BTW, when my wife and I got married the first time, yes, it was great celebration.

 

[mikew262]

Br. Rich SFO:

They must clearly understand that this is NOT a “renewal” of vows. But entering into a valid Marriage for the first time.

Its the Catholic Church bestowing it’s blessing on the marriage. This came from a priest on the Apologist Forum.

First marriage was not valid to the Catholic Church, but it was very valid to us in every other way.

 

[mikew262]

Catholic2003:

Since that poster was Deacon Cameron, that is a pretty safe assumption.

Here is what Father Lawrence Wrenn says about defective convalidation in his book The Invalid Marriage:

I will acknowledge that the Catholic Church did not consider the marriage valid. However, in every other sense of the word, it was.