annulment turned down, what is next step

[30miller]

As for the internal forum… my understanding is it’s not just about “conscience” and squishy feelings of being “right.” It applies to information that cannot for severe reasons be divulged in the “external forum.” Or proved. But you know they existed. For example, a famous person who was married to a notorious mobster may seek an annulment based on facts, but has been threatened with divulging information and possible consequences.

Just a guess - but I doubt such circumstances would apply before a Tribunal. “Divulging information” from an annulment case doesn’t happen. Tribunals aren’t run like civil courts with “public records” and the like. So the “threats and retributions” scenario would have no way to play out. One of the most high-profile annulment cases (if it ever did happen) is Ted Kennedy’s. And as far as I know the only one who “divulged” anything was his ex who said after the fact that Ted told her that he got his annulment by telling the Tribunal that he lied when he took his marriage vow because he never even then intended to be faithful to her. And according to him (i.e. not the Church which doesn’t publish annulments) that got him his “annulment” such as it was…Did he really get one? Who knows.

 

[forgetmenot]

Again, Chevalier, a wonderful recommendation and I will call the local Catholic university tomorrow after he makes his call to the Tribunal. He was unable to do anything today. All other suggestions have been very much appreciated. I will also make a few calls to the local parishes to find out if they know of any canon lawyers we can contact. Again, I will not divulge his reasons, but we have a longer history together than just thirty years. This marriage came in between. And no, I was not ‘involved’ with him during their time together, just in case anyone was going to ask. Tomorrow the question list, the phone call, and then to see how to proceed. Thanks.

 

[Ailina]

I believe Luv’s original “marriage” was never blessed by the church. Given the abusiveness of her ex, I’m sure if she gave the info on his whereabouts, they told her she didn’t have to contact him. I did not contact my ex about our annulment. And I don’t think that even now, 7 years after starting it, and 5 years after receiving the final decree, one word has ever been said about it between us. He didn’t care and chose not to participate at all. That made the witnesses I chose and the facts I gave much more important. But in the end, his refusal to participate kind of supported my case. It was just part of a pattern of behavior.

You have it right. I have an xh who has spent the last 10 years destroying his own employment possibilities for the rest of his life just to ensure I cannot get on with my life and move back home.

To the OP, I was advised in my petition to put EVERYTHING in. A friend was told to keep it brief and “just the facts.” Mine was accepted. The more information they have to work with the better. If you have new information or facts that have come to light or testimony you can add, be sure to do it in your appeal. My appeal was 123 typed pages. This is not the time for your guy to be the strong silent type. Old letters, old pictures can jar memories. Siblings can help remember. Old friends are important witnesses. I would suggest to your guy this: that if you don’t have facts about the other person, you concentrate on your own failings to understand marriage at that time or its permanence, openness to children or exclusivity and your own immature behavior and outlook when you married. And give explicit examples to showcase that. If she won’t cooperate and she wasn’t abusive or unfaithful, don’t make the reasons for the annulment about her.

As for the internal forum… my understanding is it’s not just about “conscience” and squishy feelings of being “right.” It applies to information that cannot for severe reasons be divulged in the “external forum.” Or proved. But you know they existed. For example, a famous person who was married to a notorious mobster may seek an annulment based on facts, but has been threatened with divulging information and possible consequences. Or information that can’t be proven such as threats, or abuse and the other party lies in their deposition. For instance, a man marries a woman and she takes the Pill but lies and says she was open to children. He knows she took the pill. She won’t admit it. She doesn’t want him to marry someone else. He knows she was never open to children but said she was when they dated. Or maybe someone whose spouse had abortions and doesn’t admit it and you can’t summon medical records to prove it. And she was never open to children.
Or a wife who married a guy who had a mistress when they were dating and he never gave her up, but he won’t admit it and says he didn’t. And she can’t prove it. But he was never going to be “exclusive” in the marriage. Maybe some canon law expert out there can clarify if I’m wrong. I do know the practice has been somewhat abused though.

It’s not about someone waking up and realizing they “never felt married to a prior spouse” or something like that.

Sometimes there is no external evidence. I know a woman whose marriage broke down because she discovered her husband was gay. He could not perform his husbandly duties. The problem was that he hadn’t come out of the closet, none of his family and friends knew, and so denied everything. She was unable to prove her case, and her annulment was denied.

She was devastated to the point of turning away from the Catholic Church and joining another evangelical church. She still believes in God and in Jesus, but felt the Catholic Church has really let her down. She had not heard about her right to practice internal forum because nobody told her about it.

 

[kage_ar]

She had not heard about her right to practice internal forum because nobody told her about it.

There is no “right to practice” the internal forum.

If you contact a Canon Lawyer, he or she will explain what this HIGHLY MISUNDERSTOOD idea is.

ETA - here is a link to an article that will lead you to the official docs (my inet connection is wonky this evening…)

catholicexchange.com/2006/11/16/82698/

 

[chevalier]

Sometimes there is no external evidence. I know a woman whose marriage broke down because she discovered her husband was gay. He could not perform his husbandly duties. The problem was that he hadn’t come out of the closet, none of his family and friends knew, and so denied everything. She was unable to prove her case, and her annulment was denied.

She was devastated to the point of turning away from the Catholic Church and joining another evangelical church. She still believes in God and in Jesus, but felt the Catholic Church has really let her down. She had not heard about her right to practice internal forum because nobody told her about it.

Internal forum is basically confession. Some convalidations can take place that way, but it’s not a courtroom for trials. She wasn’t equipped to tell whether her husband was gay or bisexual, had always been or had only just become.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I guess another instance would be impotence. Maybe someone wouldn’t admit he was impotent (out of pride or image or embarrassment) and the woman knew that the marriage had never been consummated and never would be, but the man wouldn’t give testimony. If a tribunal never accepted her word due to her lack of proof, maybe internal forum would apply.

Again, someone correct me if I’m wrong.

I do know it’s something handled in the confessional. I haven’t done much research on it. Other than to hear that it’s been a bit misused in this country.

 

[agapewolf]

I guess another instance would be impotence. Maybe someone wouldn’t admit he was impotent (out of pride or image or embarrassment) and the woman knew that the marriage had never been consummated and never would be, but the man wouldn’t give testimony. If a tribunal never accepted her word due to her lack of proof, maybe internal forum would apply.

Again, someone correct me if I’m wrong.

I do know it’s something handled in the confessional. I haven’t done much research on it. Other than to hear that it’s been a bit misused in this country.

This isn’t an annullment case. This is a disolving case. It could go to the vatican to be dissolved.

 

[anjoh66]

I have heard that Rome is cracking down on granting nullity in North America, even to spouses who have been abandoned.

There is a reason for Rome to do so, based on 2002 statistics, 56,000 requests for annulment went before local diocesan tribunals that year. Of the 46,000 granted, 31,000 came from North America, compared with 9,000 from Europe. This contrasts with numbers in the mere hundreds in the U.S.A. of the 1960s.

North America would be responsible for 80-85% of annulments decreed worldwide. The U.S., which has 6% of the world’s Catholic population, has 75% of the ordinary process annulments.

97% of petitions accepted by American tribunals resulted in affirmative decisions, yet, when decisions were appealed to the Vatican Marriage Tribunal, 95% of those appealed were overturned.

The annulment has became known as catholic divorce and that should not be the case.

I think what is needed is a change in peoples minds, they marry too fast and after a while its not funny any more and this is worldwide, a situation we didnt have some 50-100 years ago, maybe we can blame some of it on todays society where career and personal benefit is most important.

 

[forgetmenot]

We had some bad news on Wed re: my spouse’s health, and this was also one of the reasons for the delay in calling the judge. We discussed continuing if we received bad news, to which he replied yes. I assure everyone that his condition is treatable and early. Do keep him in your prayers. Quite frankly, I almost feel like dropping the whole thing.
I would like to know though, Chevalier mentioned that “some convalidations can take place that way”. Is that possible? Also, Chevalier stated “, I would look at what’s inconsistent in the written grounds (the “merits” of a verdict) and especially what shows presumptions being made without concrete basis in facts.” Am I take it to understand that what you are saying is that 1) we are to look at the verdict and discredit that if there are presumptions being made that are erroneous, or 2) are we to go back and look at his written grounds to see if there was information which could not produce a correct presumption. This second area is where I am concerned in that we are able to tie the application together but we feel they did not read what we are telling them. Finally, I am concerned about the immaturity issue. How can this be proven if a judge has already said everyone is immature. Any thoughts here? This was part of the application and apparently blown over as meaningless. Again, I hope today he will make his call, although the health problem is overbearing at this point. We have questions written up.
Thank you very much.

 

[kage_ar]

A shorthand version of using the confessional to permit those in an irregular marriage to partake of the sacraments is they use the internal forum (confession) to confess the sin of fornication/adultery as well as the sin of marriage outside of the Church. They resolve to stop committing that sin (live as brother and sister). They then may recieve forgivness for the sin and may return to communion.

From the Catholic Exchange article, this will show you the Canons as well words from experts like Cardinal Ratzinger (bold added):

*"What you describe appears to be a misuse of the “internal forum” to solve the problem of divorce and remarriage. *
**
In canonical terms, a forum is the place where a judgment or other ecclesiastical act takes place. A “competent forum” is one in which the person making the judgment has the authority to do so. An external forum addresses matters that concern the public welfare of the Church and are, thus, a matter of public record. Examples of matters in the external forum would be ecclesiastical trials, questions posed to the Roman Curia in which the decision affects a portion or the whole of the Church and matters such as cases of divorce, annulments, etc.
**
*The internal forum refers to matters of conscience. The *most perfect and clear example of judgments in the internal forum would be the Sacrament of Penance. When a person confesses sins, the confessional is the “competent forum” in which the priest is the legitimate judge. The priest judges if the sins are to be remitted or retained (Cf.: John 20:23), what the guilt of the penitent is and, therefore, what the appropriate penance is for the sinner. No other forum or judge can usurp the judgment given in the confessional and, of course, the confessional remains absolutely inviolate under any circumstances and cannot be a matter of public record (Code of Canon Law [CIC], canon 983 § 1 & 2).
**
The parish priest may have spoken to the couple in the internal forum and helped them to determine whether or not they think they were validly married to other persons before marrying each other. The problem is that internal forum cannot be substituted for any reason for matters in which the competent forum is external. In short, the consent between the two persons was exchanged in the external forum, and marriage cases are resolved in the external forum.
**
"The mistaken conviction of a divorced-and-remarried person that he may receive Holy Communion normally presupposes that personal conscience is considered in the final analysis to be able, on the basis of one’s own convictions, to come to a decision about the existence or absence of a previous marriage and the value of the new union. However, such a position is inadmissible. . . . [T]he consent that is the foundation of marriage is not simply a private decision, since it creates a specifically ecclesial and social situation for the spouses, both individually and as a couple." (Cardinal Ratzinger, Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith [CDF], Reception of Communion: Divorced-and-Remarried Catholics; Origins, Oct. 27, 1994, nos. 7-8).

---

*Recently, Cardinal James Francis Stafford, the Apostolic Penitentiary whose competence is the internal forum, said in an address in England, “Recourse to a so-called “internal forum solution” in order to resolve conflicts arising from irregular marriages is duplicitous.” (Address to the Catenian Association ay 14, 2005) *

 

[30miller]

There is a reason for Rome to do so, based on 2002 statistics, 56,000 requests for annulment went before local diocesan tribunals that year. Of the 46,000 granted, 31,000 came from North America, compared with 9,000 from Europe. This contrasts with numbers in the mere hundreds in the U.S.A. of the 1960s.

North America would be responsible for 80-85% of annulments decreed worldwide. The U.S., which has 6% of the world’s Catholic population, has 75% of the ordinary process annulments.

97% of petitions accepted by American tribunals resulted in affirmative decisions, yet, when decisions were appealed to the Vatican Marriage Tribunal, 95% of those appealed were overturned.

  In the process of getting my annulment I was told a lot of these statistics and the "analysis" that goes along with it.   I must say that I always thought that to look at the overall annulment situation in this way - i.e. from a statistical  viewpoint - was wrong. I always wondered why annulments couldn't be granted based on a solid methodology developed by the Church - right or wrong. To me the Canon 1095 annulments ("lack of due discretion") are granted much in the same fashion that that gypsies read tea leaves - and I got one!
 Take the statistics presented above and you can make the case that we have too many personal cars in the United States as compared to the rest of the world - and the "solution" to that is to cut back on letting people acquire cars.   That's nonsense. 
  The "annulment problem" is part of the "divorce problem" which is part of the greater "marriage problem".  In today's world the expectations of those going in to 1st marriages are completely wacky - due to what their minds have been fed during their upbringing. The omnipresent Culture of Death has inundated them for years with images of secular aspirations - so it's no surprise to me when shortly after being "married" they would like to "trade up" or "opt out".
  A nice start to the correction would be if our local pastors and bishops spoke to the issue in an ongoing and constant basis so that those in the pews don't get lulled into the idea that getting an annulment is just getting a "catholic divorce" - maybe then they won't become so irate when they get turned down.  Unfortunately, this is just one of the many tough subjects that the pastors and bishops have gone mute over in the past 30 years . (Note - we do have a handful of GREAT bishops and pastors and they are our hope for the Church. The bishops conference is not one of those hopes. They fired EWTN from telecasting the bishops' conference in Baltimore this week and instead gave it to a local wannabee on Long Island - which reaches NOBODY.  So much for any hope for them).

 

[tedfay]

As a man who went through the annullment process, I can only recommend one of the following:

1. Try to reconcile with your spouse, again. I know that you have divorced and that the situation might seem impossible. Appeal to your spouse that all things are possible with God, and that any problems that exist between you can be solved and that you can be reconciled. If you have tried this and failed, try again.
2. Appeal through normal Church ecclesial processes.
3. Humbly accept the outcome and obey the Church’s laws - they are there for YOUR protection, not to cause you problems. Sometimes marriage is a cross. However, if the decision by the Church is that your marriage is valid, then NOTHING can break it except the death of your spouse. That’s Jesus’ command and teaching. To seek even to date under these circumstances could very well be adultery. Adultery is objectively a mortal sin. A mortal sin might lead to eternal damnation in Hell. Nothing is worth Hell, nothing.

If you must accept the result, then offer up your suffering to be united with the Cross for the redeption of sinners. Spend more time with the sacraments and in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Spend more time volunteering. Hopefully, in this manner, you and others will find meaning in redemptive suffering and good can come out of your pain.

God Bless,

 

[forgetmenot]

Hello. First, TedFay I think you misread the original post, but thank you. I have been carefully reading all replies. My spouse made the call and pretty much was advised that the appeal will not yield a positive response. They are sending a copy of the verdict by mail. The good news is that he is able to reapply. Upon acceptance, he can ask for an advocate. What I don’t understand is that the first go round he was told he had none; makes no sense. We still have another week before the appeal deadline, but our impression is that the best thing to do would be to start over. He was informed that the case was not referred out for any evaluations, so our goal is to somehow make this stronger so that it will be, though I don’t know how just yet. This too makes no sense when we believe there is an issue that a Judge can’t decide. We will have to read the verdict. The thing about the immaturity really bugs me, and the witnesses attested to this factor. He is not going to jump on this too swiftly. It’s almost like starting from scratch. Chevalier, if you get a chance, would you review my prior post and see if you can answer those two questions. Right now I’m just trying to remain calm, which is very difficult, and not be so upset. Unfortunately, we have a medical issue we have to attend to now, as well. I am trying to curb thoughts of anger as best as I can, which has been directed toward the x; ultimately this would set her free. Further suggestions would be greatfully appreciated, particularly re: immaturity. My deepest thanks to everyone for your support. For those in process, you are in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[Through_Him]

must…resist…making…remark…about…“Cash for clunkers”…

When we had a dinner at our parish to raise money, our once a year, fest, some asked if they could bring in their clunkers. Ha that was funny trade in for a meal. Eat be merry and drive away. Or walk home.

 

[Ailina]

There is a reason for Rome to do so, based on 2002 statistics, 56,000 requests for annulment went before local diocesan tribunals that year. Of the 46,000 granted, 31,000 came from North America, compared with 9,000 from Europe. This contrasts with numbers in the mere hundreds in the U.S.A. of the 1960s.

North America would be responsible for 80-85% of annulments decreed worldwide. The U.S., which has 6% of the world’s Catholic population, has 75% of the ordinary process annulments.

97% of petitions accepted by American tribunals resulted in affirmative decisions, yet, when decisions were appealed to the Vatican Marriage Tribunal, 95% of those appealed were overturned.

The annulment has became known as catholic divorce and that should not be the case.

I think what is needed is a change in peoples minds, they marry too fast and after a while its not funny any more and this is worldwide, a situation we didnt have some 50-100 years ago, maybe we can blame some of it on todays society where career and personal benefit is most important.

I would bet the numbers are low in Europe because there aren’t as many religious marriages there as there are in the U.S. Most marriages in Europe would be civil these days, not performed in a church.

As for marriages staying intact 50-100 years ago, people were silent about mental and physical abuse. Abuse was NEVER talked about, rendering it invisible. Sure people stayed in marriages, but I bet a lot of them were severely dysfunctional. The mentality was “You made your bed, now sleep in it!” How compassionate that is!

I was married to a man who wanted to change our marriage to an open one, and had in fact been participating in such an arrangement with another couple for years before I found out. Let’s not mention all the other women before that. Are you suggesting that I should have kept my mouth shut? Do you think our children would never have found out about this sort of arrangement??? My husband left after I told him that I was not in agreement with his stupid idea. So you’re darned tootin’ right I applied for an annulment. It is my right to do so! It is the right of anyone whose marriage breaks down.

If I hadn’t had physical evidence of his behavior, I’m pretty sure my annulment would have been turned down too. Because my ex is such a charmer, such a nice guy. You would never suspect in a million years if you met him. None of our families and friends knew.

Tribunals require physical evidence and witnesses. I had no witnesses, but fortunately there was physical evidence. In the OP’s case, there are neither witnesses nor evidence. That is where the Internal Forum can be so important, when you know something was wrong but nobody else did.

 

[flyingfish]

I would bet the numbers are low in Europe because there aren’t as many religious marriages there as there are in the U.S. Most marriages in Europe would be civil these days, not performed in a church.

This, Europeans are so secular, they have huge percentages of atheists and agnostics, and the Catholics they do have are mostly Catholic in name only. I would bet there are so many more annulments from America because Americans take religion a lot more seriously than other Westerners.

 

[kage_ar]

That is where the Internal Forum can be so important, when you know something was wrong but nobody else did.

I’m pretty sure that the OP has stated she is not willing to live as brother and sister, that takes the internal forum off the table as a solution.

 

[Ailina]

I’m pretty sure that the OP has stated she is not willing to live as brother and sister, that takes the internal forum off the table as a solution.

Ironically, my ex-husband DID want us to live as brother and sister since he wasn’t interested in conjugal relations with me. So there ya go! Maybe we should have stayed married and I should not applied for an annulment and my children could witness what marriage was really all about.

A Tribunal can make a wrong judgement because they insist on evidence,and sometimes there is none. If there is none, living as brother and sister after living as man and wife for 30 years (and married elsewhere), seems very rigid and ridiculous. I can see why some people leave the Church after their marriages fail. Because they feel the Church is failing them as well.

 

[ac_claire]

Hello. First, TedFay I think you misread the original post, but thank you. I have been carefully reading all replies. My spouse made the call and pretty much was advised that the appeal will not yield a positive response. They are sending a copy of the verdict by mail. The good news is that he is able to reapply. Upon acceptance, he can ask for an advocate. What I don’t understand is that the first go round he was told he had none; makes no sense. We still have another week before the appeal deadline, but our impression is that the best thing to do would be to start over. He was informed that the case was not referred out for any evaluations, so our goal is to somehow make this stronger so that it will be, though I don’t know how just yet. This too makes no sense when we believe there is an issue that a Judge can’t decide. We will have to read the verdict. The thing about the immaturity really bugs me, and the witnesses attested to this factor. He is not going to jump on this too swiftly. It’s almost like starting from scratch. Chevalier, if you get a chance, would you review my prior post and see if you can answer those two questions. Right now I’m just trying to remain calm, which is very difficult, and not be so upset. Unfortunately, we have a medical issue we have to attend to now, as well. I am trying to curb thoughts of anger as best as I can, which has been directed toward the x; ultimately this would set her free. Further suggestions would be greatfully appreciated, particularly re: immaturity. My deepest thanks to everyone for your support. For those in process, you are in my thoughts and prayers.

Frogetmenot, a thought just popped into my head. (Forgive me if this has already been suggested and dismissed…I have read most of this thread and have followed some of the other threads you’ve posted in re: this issue.) But have you thought about maybe appraoching the ex-wife again? Because it sounds like if she consented to this or gave some kind of testimony it might help matters? I don’t know if it has just been your husband in the past, but maybe the both of you or maybe even just you could approach her again and explain the whole thing to her…everything you’ve said to us here. That this would set her free and set the two of you free as well. And acknowledge that you and your husband have been living as husband and wife for 30 something years now and this is now a spiritual as well as a personal issue, and would be such a huge weight off your shoulders if the annulment would go through…Basically, I’m thinking of a huge leap of faith and appealing to her sense of mercy. It might be worth a shot, and the best part about it is you don’t really have anything to lose by trying. If it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work and then you can just proceed as you’ve already described.

Just a thought I had… again, it may or may not be possible or helpful or relevant to you.

 

[anjoh66]

This, Europeans are so secular, they have huge percentages of atheists and agnostics, and the Catholics they do have are mostly Catholic in name only. I would bet there are so many more annulments from America because Americans take religion a lot more seriously than other Westerners.

Hey there, dont go to far in your interpretations., you cant say those are are more religious than theese can you?

neither it was my intention to do, i was just trying to give an explanation why Rome saw the difficulties.

Still every case is unique and need its own judgement