annulment turned down, what is next step

  • Thread starter Thread starter forgetmenot
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hello. First, TedFay I think you misread the original post, but thank you. I have been carefully reading all replies. My spouse made the call and pretty much was advised that the appeal will not yield a positive response. They are sending a copy of the verdict by mail. The good news is that he is able to reapply. Upon acceptance, he can ask for an advocate. What I don’t understand is that the first go round he was told he had none; makes no sense. We still have another week before the appeal deadline, but our impression is that the best thing to do would be to start over. He was informed that the case was not referred out for any evaluations, so our goal is to somehow make this stronger so that it will be, though I don’t know how just yet. This too makes no sense when we believe there is an issue that a Judge can’t decide. We will have to read the verdict. The thing about the immaturity really bugs me, and the witnesses attested to this factor. He is not going to jump on this too swiftly. It’s almost like starting from scratch. Chevalier, if you get a chance, would you review my prior post and see if you can answer those two questions. Right now I’m just trying to remain calm, which is very difficult, and not be so upset. Unfortunately, we have a medical issue we have to attend to now, as well. I am trying to curb thoughts of anger as best as I can, which has been directed toward the x; ultimately this would set her free. Further suggestions would be greatfully appreciated, particularly re: immaturity. My deepest thanks to everyone for your support. For those in process, you are in my thoughts and prayers.
My prayers are with you for this week. I will say the rosary for you both tomorrow at mass.

Your best and most important advocate is the Holy Spirit. Of course I understand that they are looking for more witnesses. The issue of your health and age could be a good swinging issue. Bring in a statement from the doctor saying that at your age this is in need of closure. That is not a lie. Also I am thinking you both aren’t young anymore so you could advocate for settling this as a closure for you both as you may want burial in a Catholic cemetery. If you have all ready settled that issue just reiterate to them that you want and want for him the peace of knowing you CAN rest in peace with the hope of heaven and appeal to them for closure. Also if you should pass away, not trying to be negative, but he may want to remarry in the Church and guess what he will still have this issue overbearing on his head. Take control of this in a quiet but purposeful manner. Continue to work at this, a doctor can be of big help.

We have a brother in law who got a divorce, but wanted to remarry in the church the woman he had been living with for awhile. He wanted to help her raise her girls and so he appealed, it took a couple years. This also helped his mother feel better about the situation. Yes he continued to live with her and work but I believe did not attend the church and then it worked out, he finnally got the annulment. So they were married and are still together and the girls are grown going to college.

Not so great for the sister in law. Our sis in law has been in and out of 4 marriages so not so good for her but because it is so easy in the secular I think.
 
We had some bad news on Wed re: my spouse’s health, and this was also one of the reasons for the delay in calling the judge. We discussed continuing if we received bad news, to which he replied yes. I assure everyone that his condition is treatable and early. Do keep him in your prayers. Quite frankly, I almost feel like dropping the whole thing.
I would like to know though, Chevalier mentioned that “some convalidations can take place that way”. Is that possible?..
I’m sorry to hear about your husband.

My remark about “internal forum” for convalidation served illustration what internal forum was (fixing an impediment one party knows about) and what it was not for (doubling a tribunal process). It did not mean that your situation could be addressed this way, but the exact opposite. I’m sorry.

As for presumptions, they are, “probable conjecture about uncertain matter,” (can. 1584) and, “[t]he judge is not to formulate presumptions which are not established by law unless they are directly based on a certain and determined fact connected with the matter in dispute” (can. 1586). In plain terms, this means the logic needs to be strong and conclusions can’t be shaky. If you find a place where the judge can’t root his statements in facts, you need to point it out.

If you feel they don’t read what you write… well, I would write that, but you’d need to show what gives you that impression, e.g. the written grounds say that no one said anything about X, while you actually wrote about X in one of your submissions.

As for the “immature” remark, well, it’s often believed that such remarks by judges should not be quoted and used (it’s seen as bad style), but I believe this is no reason to omit a potentially important detail. Clearly, everyone is not immature and the judge was bitter and dismissive. I wouldn’t rule out that it reflected on the case. So I would quote that remark and say it’s clearly not true and it shows a questionable attitude, plus, while “immaturity” is not a specifically named impediment, the defects of consent listed in can. 1095 are this:

1/ those who lack the sufficient use of reason;
2/ those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;
3/ those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature.


“Immaturity” can cover any of the three, especially when used by a party who is not a professional and does not express himself in a professionaly correct way.

However, please remember that these are not superhuman requirements, they are minimum requirements and the defects described in #1-3 must be serious. “Sufficient use of reason,” should be read as sufficient for marriage, not sufficient in general in the opinion of people who interact with that person, “grave defect” is grave (extremely serious) and “essential rights and duties” or “essential obligations” are essential (base, core). Here’s some reading, which mentions Pope John Paul II saying to the Roman Rota (the highest tribunal for marriages) that it was “incapacity, not difficulty” which caused a marriage to be invalid:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/marital_consent.htm

(You can google for more, but don’t waste time on unprofessional opinions - look for something signed by someone competent.)

As of the written grounds, I may be saying the obvious, but you’ll need to show them to the canon lawyer who will be helping you. You will want to show it to him (take pictures or scan it and prepare a .zip file for easy sending, same goes for your application and whatever other important documents you have - doing this will save hours after contacting him and you may be time-pressed) and tell him all you know and/or answer his questions. If he isn’t asking you questions, make him ask. And ask him to write that appeal, not just tell you what to put there (unless he tells you to write it on your own, but stating X, Y and Z - but in that case, do ask him all questions you can think about and keep his phone number or e-mail).

If you don’t find a canon lawyer, you will need to do it alone, which means writing down all problems you have with the verdict (better too much than too few) and clearly pointing out what shows the judge didn’t read something you wrote, ignored a witness statement or some other piece of evidence or refused to admit or conduct some evidence (such as psychiatric examination), jumped to a conclusion from shaky facts, showed bias (includes being rude to parties, but you must understand this - of itself - is a minor clue; judges can be perfectly fair while bordering on verbally abusive), said something troubling from the point of view of what’s written in canon law (something that doesn’t seem to agree with the rules, e.g. an unqualified statement that immaturity is relevant). Then, write whatever you said about not getting assistance of a lawyer, not getting assistance in looking for a lawyer - but having to look one up on your own as your time-limit for appeal was running and any other details which suggest that you were not able to defend your position and/or there was bias. Don’t omit anything you think might be relevant but aren’t sure. Think what else can be relevant. You don’t need to (and won’t be able to) write like a neat and professional canon lawyer, but you want everything to be there.
 
And here’s a quotation from the EWTN article that’s the most relevant to your case:

An immature person, for example, may have difficulty but still have the capacity to undertake marriage and assume its essential obligations (a community of life that is exclusive and indissoluble, provides mutual help and support and is ordered to the procreation and education of children). A grossly immature person may indeed be incapable, but that must be proven with respect to marriage at the time of exchanging consent.

3. Finally, there can be a defect due to the inability to actually assume the essential obligations of marriage. A person may have sufficient reason, even sufficient discretion, but have a psychic condition that incapacitates them for fulfilling marriage’s essential obligations (the conjugal act, the community of life and love, providing mutual help, and procreating and educating children). As noted by Pope John Paul II regarding the lack of reason, it must be an incapacity not just a difficulty, and it must be present at the time of exchanging consent. Examples of such conditions are psychosexual disorders and personality disorders.


As you see, a grossly immature person still does not necessarily need to be incapable of marrying validly. It pretty much takes a person who didn’t mentally accomplish puberty or had a psychiatric condition that made him not know what he was doing or “at least” a personality issue with severe effects. That’s very hard to prove. I’m sorry, but you must be prepared for the possibility that it won’t work - or, more importantly - that your husband’s marriage to his previous wife may still be valid.

I don’t know about exclusions, i.e. exclusion of faith (fidelity), sacrament (indissolubility), progeny (children) - did any of these appear in your application?
 
Your best and most important advocate is the Holy Spirit. Of course I understand that they are looking for more witnesses. The issue of your health and age could be a good swinging issue. Bring in a statement from the doctor saying that at your age this is in need of closure. That is not a lie. Also I am thinking you both aren’t young anymore so you could advocate for settling this as a closure for you both as you may want burial in a Catholic cemetery. If you have all ready settled that issue just reiterate to them that you want and want for him the peace of knowing you CAN rest in peace with the hope of heaven and appeal to them for closure. Also if you should pass away, not trying to be negative, but he may want to remarry in the Church and guess what he will still have this issue overbearing on his head. Take control of this in a quiet but purposeful manner. Continue to work at this, a doctor can be of big help.
This is good advice…and maybe even, if your husband’s memory/forgetfulness of the past continues to be a hinderance, some kind of documentation from a doctor about his memory problems might help too.
 
I know for a fact that I qualify for an annulment using canon law 1095…But… I can’t prove it for my ex-spouse because he never went to a psychiatrist with his mental problems so I have no prove that he is mentally ill. When I got married to him I realized he was a pathological liar caused by his father who tramatized him and abused him. My ex-spouse will not confirm that because he doesn’t want to participate in the annulment procedure.
I never would have applied if I thought I needed his response.

I also didn’t realize I was having my own mental problems due to anxiety, depression, and stress. I am able to prove that because I have been going for years for therapy.
I also didn’t realize that I was taking illegal drugs “uppers” to keep my energy going.
I thought it was normal for me as a teenager who got married at 19yrs.old.

I am still going through the process of the annulment and maybe I need to get more radical and type my answers in LARGE CAPITALS because my advocate thinks I need more information. I DON’T THINK THEY BELIEVE MY LIFE STORY or…I DON’T THINK THEY ARE READING WHAT I HAVE SAID TO THEM.

I have made it very clear to the Tribunal my main reasons for the annulment that has been documented by my licensed therapist and my license medical family doctor.

I totally dislike the Tribunal thinking that I have to prove to them that I am telling the truth.

I am not a con artist trying to pull a fast one by lying to the Tribunal. I believe they should believe us when we are telling them the truth. PLUS, I HAVE PROOF… and they seem to still not believe me.

I truly feel sorry for all the Catholics who have told the truth and have been rejected by the Tribunal Office.

Jesus had the perfect idea of a perfect marriage where people would stay married for ever in this lifetime. BUT… can’t happen to people like me who was born with mental problems and my ex-spouse was also mentally ill and we produced mentally ill sons. One son was born BI-POLAR with a brain tumor that killed him. The other son has becomed a workaholic to keep himself too busy to enjoy life. I was not blessed with a normal marriage. I would have ended up in a mental instituiton if I had stayed married.

Presently… I still have mental problems. My doctor and therapist and my priests keep me in a stable condition with prayer and medications.
With all of my written proof I think the Tribunal should believe me because I have sent them letters from my therapist and doctor too.

My advise to the original poster… please don’t give up… keep fighting until your husband gets his annulment. I know that at times we feel a lot of anger because the Tribunal can’t see or maybe read what we have to say about our annulments.
I don’t plan to give up that easy… even if I have to make an appeal to the Pope.
 
Oh, gosh, LaLucia. I am so sorry to have read your comments, particularly about your children. Puts me in my place when I think of all I have to be grateful for. But like you, I won’t give up fighting for the truth.
As far as the x goes, my husband tried to make contact, but was not allowed to obtain her phone number. I started to write some disparaging remarks about her, but erased them; so I’ll just leave it at that.
Chevalier, thank you for replying. He is not going to appeal as he was basically given the impression that it would not go through based on the information at hand. He is going to reapply. I think this is the strongest way for him to get this through; the biggest problem is that the judge overlooked the testimony of two witnesses in our opinion. We had hoped the information would send it off for outside review, but the judge seemed comfortable enough to make a decision without any psych eval. That is what is so upsetting. I would expect the copy of the verdict will be here on Sat or Mon latest. We have to deal right now with the medical diagnosis given a few days ago. This will probably be on the backburner for a while until we know how we’re going to handle this medical issue. The thought of him, us, going through this again for another year, just to even write it out is going to be exhausting. I do think, though, that being provided an advocate after applying makes no sense. I’m going to try to find out if there’s any other way to get help in advance with the writeup. I mean, once it’s turned in, that’s basically it; so I don’t get it. I bookmarked the info you mentioned. Unfortunately, we’re not canon lawyers to arrange the circumstance to fit the bill. Will keep you posted.
Thank you, everyone.
 
Oh, gosh, LaLucia. I am so sorry to have read your comments, particularly about your children. Puts me in my place when I think of all I have to be grateful for. But like you, I won’t give up fighting for the truth.
As far as the x goes, my husband tried to make contact, but was not allowed to obtain her phone number. I started to write some disparaging remarks about her, but erased them; so I’ll just leave it at that.
Chevalier, thank you for replying. He is not going to appeal as he was basically given the impression that it would not go through based on the information at hand. He is going to reapply. I think this is the strongest way for him to get this through; the biggest problem is that the judge overlooked the testimony of two witnesses in our opinion. We had hoped the information would send it off for outside review, but the judge seemed comfortable enough to make a decision without any psych eval. That is what is so upsetting. I would expect the copy of the verdict will be here on Sat or Mon latest. We have to deal right now with the medical diagnosis given a few days ago. This will probably be on the backburner for a while until we know how we’re going to handle this medical issue. The thought of him, us, going through this again for another year, just to even write it out is going to be exhausting. I do think, though, that being provided an advocate after applying makes no sense. I’m going to try to find out if there’s any other way to get help in advance with the writeup. I mean, once it’s turned in, that’s basically it; so I don’t get it. I bookmarked the info you mentioned. Unfortunately, we’re not canon lawyers to arrange the circumstance to fit the bill. Will keep you posted.
Thank you, everyone.
All I can say is that applying for an annulment is NOT for the faint of heart. Those who haven’t gone through it don’t realize how hard it is, just as they don’t realize how hard it is when a marriage break down is beyond your control sometimes. I feel like the annulment process has kept me trapped in the past when I want to move forward. It’s been two years for me! Talk about penance!😃
 
Oh, gosh, LaLucia. I am so sorry to have read your comments, particularly about your children. Puts me in my place when I think of all I have to be grateful for. But like you, I won’t give up fighting for the truth.
As far as the x goes, my husband tried to make contact, but was not allowed to obtain her phone number. I started to write some disparaging remarks about her, but erased them; so I’ll just leave it at that.
Chevalier, thank you for replying. He is not going to appeal as he was basically given the impression that it would not go through based on the information at hand. He is going to reapply. I think this is the strongest way for him to get this through; the biggest problem is that the judge overlooked the testimony of two witnesses in our opinion. We had hoped the information would send it off for outside review, but the judge seemed comfortable enough to make a decision without any psych eval. That is what is so upsetting. I would expect the copy of the verdict will be here on Sat or Mon latest. We have to deal right now with the medical diagnosis given a few days ago. This will probably be on the backburner for a while until we know how we’re going to handle this medical issue. The thought of him, us, going through this again for another year, just to even write it out is going to be exhausting. I do think, though, that being provided an advocate after applying makes no sense. I’m going to try to find out if there’s any other way to get help in advance with the writeup. I mean, once it’s turned in, that’s basically it; so I don’t get it. I bookmarked the info you mentioned. Unfortunately, we’re not canon lawyers to arrange the circumstance to fit the bill. Will keep you posted.
Thank you, everyone.
You cannot reapply on the same grounds. You should not give up on appeal just because you think it won’t go anywhere.
 
I know for a fact that I qualify for an annulment using canon law 1095…
I would be cautious in allowing myself to believe that. It’s like medicine. You wouldn’t attempt to diagnose anything more complex than a simple cold if you weren’t a doctor, well, maybe a paramedic, but this is besides the point. It’s the same with law, especially canon law, which is difficult even for lawyers. So you may be confident about one or another psychological issue in either of the parties, but without being a psychiatrist - and emotionally uninvolved in the outcome - you can’t judge it with certainty and impartiality. You may feel strongly about the significance of it, but without proper preparation - or without reading a lot on how the Pope, the Roman Rota and expert canon lawyers understand canon 1095, you can’t be sure that you read it well.

As for the tribunal requiring proofs, I know how it feels to say the truth but still not be believed. That’s half of the reason why I became a lawyer. But the tribunal can’t know whether you’re telling the truth. You say they should believe you because you are telling the truth - but they don’t know the latter part. I’m sure if they knew you were telling the truth, they wouldn’t elect to disbelieve you because that would be like electing to believe the grass is yellow and the sun is green and that’s not a way a court’s reasoning is supposed to go. Canon 1526 §1 says that, “the burden of proof rests upon the person who makes the allegation,” which is a very old rule present in all laws except, to an extent, criminal law. The judge can’t pick one party to believe, he must proceed according to sound reason and verify all claims which are laid before him, as he has the responsibility to judge fairly and proceed according to the laws and procedure. Now when you say you present proof, such as letters from your doctors and therapists, the tribunal ought to - at least - verify them carefully and initiate examination by it’s own appointed expert. As of your feeling that they still don’t believe you after your showing them proof, they can’t side with a party before the conclusion of the trial and the passing of the verdict. They need to stay impartial until the end. This is because a trial has two parties and each of the parties’ rights must be respected in it. You would want the same if a petition were brought against you by someone else. Finally, I don’t know if you’ve been told, but in cases where problems persist, and it’s obvious that another marriage conducted in the same circumstances would likely be invalid, the tribunal may issue a vetitum, prohibiting a party from marrying without the ordinary’s (bishop’s) consent, in order to prevent an invalid marriage from taking place. And, you too, should contact a canon lawyer. He will be prepared to know if everything is going by the book in the tribunal’s proceedings.
 
Ok, Chevalier. I’m going to give your recommendation serious thought when the copy of the verdict arrives and he and I read it. I very much appreciate your expert opinion. The judge told my husband that they are very lenient in accepting reapplications, though we still have a few more days. We are not going to give up. Oftentimes my heart breaks over this, at other times I am strong, bound, and determined. My husbands health is more important and I should be concentrating more on that; now it seems like I’ve got two serious problems to deal with, and they’re both on my mind constantly. We are still fairly young, and have many years ahead, God willing. I know what you mean Ailina about trapped in the past. I had asked him all of our lives together to get this done. Finally got him back to Church just a few years back, though I don’t credit myself for bringing him back to the Church, that was by God; I just helped a little bit. Will advise when verdict received.
 
Exercising your conscience is indeed part of the Catholic faith:

Every marriage is different, so it is impossible to judge the state of a person’s soul based on the external facts of a case as they appear on the books. There are cases where a person is justified in acting contrary to the law.

If someone wakes up from the nightmare of a disastrous marriage in a state of disorientation, the victim of abuse and hatred, it might take a long time to recover.

As the person begins to heal, he or she may for the first time find a new love. The couple may come to see this new relationship as a gift from God. At the same time they are in conflict because they hear the Church saying that they are living in sin. They try for an annulment but are told they have no case.

Once they work through the conscience issue, they may decide to use the internal forum solution. They may consult with a priest-confessor or counselor for advice. A priest cannot marry them because this would be simulating the sacrament, but he may encourage them to follow their conscience if the facts seem to support them.

Pope John Paul II in his apostolic exhortation Familiaris Consortio has forbidden them to receive the Eucharist if they marry invalidly. Many of them receive anyway, believing that their second marriage is not a sin but a blessing.

This civil marriage violates the strict letter of the law, but** freedom of conscience comes into play here. **The right to marry is a natural-law right, and this right must be weighed against the doubt about the validity of the first marriage. A hateful, abusive husband is probably a psychologically damaged human being, whether we can prove his personality disorder or not.

It is a delicate issue, but very few priests would turn anyone away from receiving the Eucharist. The burden is on the person to do what he or she thinks is right.

A Catholic is bound to form his or her conscience according to the teaching of the magisterium, which is the Church’s highest teaching authority. What does this mean exactly?

Theologian and scholar Father Avery Dulles, S.J., in a talk given at a 1991 workshop for members of the hierarchy from all over North America—an assembly which included cardinals, archbishops and bishops—explained the relationship between conscience and the magisterium in this way:

“There is no perfect identity between conscience and the magisterium of the Church. Conscience is an interior, not an outer, voice…The magisterium fulfills the aspirations of conscience by enabling it to find the moral good at which it aims…For members of the Church, the magisterium is one, but only one, informant of conscience” (Proceedings of the Tenth Bishops’ Workshop, Dallas, Texas).

I was on the same program and I observed that there was no objection to this statement. This means that an informed conscience is not always a conformed conscience. The Church urges us to strive for conformity, but this is not always possible.

There is a great mystery here, but the Church upholds freedom of conscience to the extent that, even if a person is in error, he or she must obey an informed conscience. When it is informed, outsiders should respect the person’s conscience even if they disagree with it.

In my book Where Do You Stand With the Church?: The Dilemma of Divorced Catholics (Alba House, New York, 1996), I go into all these questions in greater detail.

These questions and answers may help you understand the Church’s discipline on marriage. One day we will all be judged on the way we have loved one another. This is the essential truth of the gospel.

Father John Catoir is executive director of Eva’s Village, New Jersey’s largest comprehensive poverty program and one of our nation’s largest emergency shelters. He headed the diocesan marriage tribunal in Paterson, New Jersey, for 10 years. From 1978 to 1995, he led The Christophers, hosting the weekly television series Christopher Closeup. In 1995, he founded St. Jude Media Ministry, a national radio and TV apostolate aimed at the unchurched.
The burden is on all Catholics to form their consciences according to the teachings of the Church in order to enable them to judge correctly (as often as possible) what IS right. Your post above smacks of “what’s right for you may not be right for me”, a relativistic position that is morally untenable.

Marriage outside the ordinary form without dispensation is illicit. Receiving the Eucharist when one has committed what one knows to be an objective mortal sin IS a mortal sin, whether one believes it to be or not.

It is wrong to advise Catholics to act contrary to Catholic doctrine and contrary to the rulings of a marriage tribunal – you don’t have the authority to grant such permission.

Peace,
Dante
 
I would be cautious in allowing myself to believe that. It’s like medicine. You wouldn’t attempt to diagnose anything more complex than a simple cold if you weren’t a doctor, well, maybe a paramedic, but this is besides the point. It’s the same with law, especially canon law, which is difficult even for lawyers. So you may be confident about one or another psychological issue in either of the parties, but without being a psychiatrist - and emotionally uninvolved in the outcome - you can’t judge it with certainty and impartiality. You may feel strongly about the significance of it, but without proper preparation - or without reading a lot on how the Pope, the Roman Rota and expert canon lawyers understand canon 1095, you can’t be sure that you read it well.

As for the tribunal requiring proofs, I know how it feels to say the truth but still not be believed. That’s half of the reason why I became a lawyer. But the tribunal can’t know whether you’re telling the truth. You say they should believe you because you are telling the truth - but they don’t know the latter part. I’m sure if they knew you were telling the truth, they wouldn’t elect to disbelieve you because that would be like electing to believe the grass is yellow and the sun is green and that’s not a way a court’s reasoning is supposed to go. Canon 1526 §1 says that, "the burden of proof rests upon the person who makes the allegation," which is a very old rule present in all laws except, to an extent, criminal law. The judge can’t pick one party to believe, he must proceed according to sound reason and verify all claims which are laid before him, as he has the responsibility to judge fairly and proceed according to the laws and procedure. Now when you say you present proof, such as letters from your doctors and therapists, the tribunal ought to - at least - verify them carefully and initiate examination by it’s own appointed expert. As of your feeling that they still don’t believe you after your showing them proof, they can’t side with a party before the conclusion of the trial and the passing of the verdict. They need to stay impartial until the end. This is because a trial has two parties and each of the parties’ rights must be respected in it. You would want the same if a petition were brought against you by someone else. Finally, I don’t know if you’ve been told, but in cases where problems persist, and it’s obvious that another marriage conducted in the same circumstances would likely be invalid, the tribunal may issue a vetitum, prohibiting a party from marrying without the ordinary’s (bishop’s) consent, in order to prevent an invalid marriage from taking place. And, you too, should contact a canon lawyer. He will be prepared to know if everything is going by the book in the tribunal’s proceedings.
But what does a person do when there is NO proof? If it wasn’t for a bit of paper found in my ex-husband’s car, I would not have discovered that he had a secret life. If he hadn’t stormed out of the house and forgotten to close his computer down after I told him his secret life was destroying our marriage, there would have been no further proof to present to the Tribunal. They would have thought my crazy account of our marriage was over the top and probably dismissed me as a wacko.

Sometimes there is NO proof, so the Tribunal cannot rule in your favor. In which case, I would think exercising your conscience is valid. Because, as has been said here in these forums, it is a sin to tell others about your marriage troubles. So you have no witnesses. Oh sure, you can go and complain to your priest. But he really has no more proof than your words either, does he? So you’re no further ahead, really.
 
But what does a person do when there is NO proof? If it wasn’t for a bit of paper found in my ex-husband’s car, I would not have discovered that he had a secret life. If he hadn’t stormed out of the house and forgotten to close his computer down after I told him his secret life was destroying our marriage, there would have been no further proof to present to the Tribunal. They would have thought my crazy account of our marriage was over the top and probably dismissed me as a wacko.

Sometimes there is NO proof, so the Tribunal cannot rule in your favor. In which case, I would think exercising your conscience is valid. Because, as has been said here in these forums, it is a sin to tell others about your marriage troubles. So you have no witnesses. Oh sure, you can go and complain to your priest. But he really has no more proof than your words either, does he? So you’re no further ahead, really.
Sounds to me like God handeled it and provided you the proof you needed. He will do the same for those who seek Him.
 
Made contact with a friend from nearly forty years ago; unfortunately could not be of any help. This is second person we’ve contacted in the old loop who could not help. Have only a few more on the list if we can find them. Guys memories are terrible. Nothing received in the mail today.
 
Hi, Forgetmenot, Sometimes it takes time and days for witnesses to start remembering things. It’s like opening an old door in our brains that brings up the old memories.
It has taken me months to start remembering things from my past.

Chevalier, thank you for your information. My strong case on my side is if the Tribunal doesn’t believe my therapist or doctor… I am willing to be checked out by their counselors or doctors. My licensed psychologist that I have been seeing for many years will be upset with the Tribunal if they don’t believe her. She will not lie to please the Tribunal. She told the truth.
My doctor is the type of person who will say" the proof is in her anatomy/physiology…and go ahead with your second opinion… and the second doctor will come to the same conclusion as I have". My doctor has not lied either.

I wish I had becomed a lawyer in my career but my mental illness would have gotten in my way of being a great lawyer. I am so happy and lucky that we have you here to give us advise and information like a lawyer sees things. LaLucia
 
Thank you, but you must understand I’m not a canon lawyer (I’m not even a civil attorney, actually - I’m past my Master’s in civil law and currently working on Ph.D., bar admission being a secondary concern) and my education in canon law is limited to around 30 hours on marriage cases with an exam five years ago plus private reading as a hobby) and I’ve been wrong on occasion. I can tell you what I know or what I suspect from what you say, or what I’d do if I were in your shoes, but it’s not the same as getting advice from a real canon lawyer.

Speaking of, tribunals are courts and getting evidence through is half or most of the job. Sometimes you need almost to “force” the court to look on some piece of evidence you consider relevant. Since parties can request evidence to be conducted (look here), you can point out your evidence clearly (e.g. using clear formatting in your argumentation contained in your letter to the court, e.g.:

lorem ipsum etc. etc.

/evidence: witness statement by Mr X

lorem ipsum etc. etc.) or even you can write outright that you request evidence to be conducted from enclosed documents to prove facts as you state (preferably repeating the facts). If the judge rejects that evidence, you can insist on it and he has to decide it again (see canon 1527 §2). By the way, if you already present a witness statement recorded before a notary public (or even a signed statement enclosed with your own letter to the tribunal), it supports your case better than a vague comment that Mr X can be heard to support your words. Directly and formally framed requests for conducting evidence are hard to ignore by any court, especially when reviewing on appeal. You can also use the syllogism format, e.g. assertion - evidence - explanation - conclusion (essentially repeated assertion), then next assertion and so on. This is akin to the “BARAC” model, i.e. bold assertion - rule - rule explanation - conclusion (e.g. “This figure is a rectangle. The rule is that all squares are rectangles. We agree that this figure is a square. Therefore, this figure is a rectangle.”) Structure is very important and this one is likely to be much clearer and more convincing when you’re discussing the most important points, or points of law (normal narrative is probably still better for laying down the facts, but the style should be legibile, sentences should be clear, unambiguous and not too long and so on - but if this is uncomfortable, it’s probably better to write in a way that’s more natural to you and express yourself). You can probably find more about legal writing in Google - it isn’t impenetrable to non-lawyers, unlike some aspects of procedure. Still, it’s nearly always better to have a specialised lawyer do the writing. This should help you with any formal requests, applications etc. you make with any authorities and it’s roughly similar to argumentative writing in academic articles and similar works, so you might as well spend a week or two on it, just don’t stress yourself too hard. It most likely won’t be a waste of effort.
 
Heavy stuff to read; we really do need a lawyer. What’s going on right now is difficult to say the least. A combination of bad news re: medical issue and then the turn down. Hard to keep focused on priority with all this other in the background. It’s a daily thing, now.
 
So have you found the lawyer? Days are running out and the time-limit with them. The sooner you get the lawyer, the more time he will have to work on your case. Have you tried asking for extension? They might grant you that, but you’ll need a paper to hold on to, not just an oral promise by someone in the administration who is liable to forget it or be denied by the decision-maker.
 
Chevalier, it appears like we are going to redo the application. I would expect the verdict in tomorrow’s mail. If not, he should be able to go and pick up at the office on Tues. Right now he’s becoming upset because of the fact he has a diagnosis of the c-word, which has to be addressed, putting the annulment on the backburner. I was able to contact today a friend from thirty-seven years ago who can attest, at least partly, to the psych issue he tried to present. He is going to speak with a few more mutual friends to see if they can attest to the same. It was truly a blessing to find him after the first two contacts from way back did not pan out. I want to see what was written in the verdict. The last word at the Tribunal was that they are fairly liberal with reapplications. Our feeling is they did not address the psych issue. I’m thinking the app has to be rewritten to fit the bill. There may be too many conflicting statements within, and so we’ll have to strengthen and piece together the psych/maturity issue somehow to make them see what was really being said. I assure you we will get help for this. Unfortunately, he’s beginning to feel that my priority is not him right now. Will keep you posted. Thank you so much.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top