annulment turned down, what is next step

[redrosetea]

I’m not saying you didn’t do a good job explaining the situation, but you might not have made a through one

I know of 2 couples that simply didn’t explain their situations well enough

Perhaps you could find a priest or a catholic lawyer to submit another request?

A fresh explanation might yield better results

I’m sure what you told them was clear to you, but it might not have been to them

 

[Rachel_1]

Actually not. One can’t marry when there’s an unresolved previous marriage and when one is not married, sexual intercourse is fornication.

So, if someone has been married 3 times, the first marriage ended in divorce, then within a few years, married another person (#2) and after a few years divorced that person. After the second divorce, the first husband dies, then 3 years after the death of the first husband the person marries husband # 3.
The second marriage should be considered invalid because of the husband from the first marriage still being alive during that time, correct? Also, husband #3 would be a valid marriage because it was after husband #1 died?
I’m about to go through this process myself, and there’s much more to the situation with husband #2 which is what I’m getting the annulment for.

 

[Rachel_1]

I honestly don’t see how anyone can say this with a straight face. They’ve been MARRIED for almost 30 years.

In my case, I’ve decided that if for some reason mine is denied, I will appeal because I never considered husband #2 as a ‘real marriage’… even if he did. I was forced into it, and I was abused, everything within me told me that it was wrong to marry him, even when I was saying vows, and at the time, I didn’t even know that it was a Sacrament.
If after all appeals and ways to get the annulment fail, I have decided, I will live alone the rest of my life and accept the decision, because to me, it’s more important to serve God than to be married if that makes sense.
For the OP, I will be praying for you, I know you must be feeling heartbroken and confused, I know if I’m denied, I’ll probably feel that way too, but at the same time, I’ve went over and over this in my head and decided what to do either way.

 

[Just_Lurking]

So, if someone has been married 3 times, the first marriage ended in divorce, then within a few years, married another person (#2) and after a few years divorced that person. After the second divorce, the first husband dies, then 3 years after the death of the first husband the person marries husband # 3.
The second marriage should be considered invalid because of the husband from the first marriage still being alive during that time, correct? Also, husband #3 would be a valid marriage because it was after husband #1 died?
I’m about to go through this process myself, and there’s much more to the situation with husband #2 which is what I’m getting the annulment for.

For this plan to work, the first marriage must be valid. In the tribunal system, this will be a limited check to see that nothing was obviously invalid about the first marriage, e.g., lack of form, prior marriage on the husband’s part, etc.

 

[kage_ar]

Prayers here, I cannot fathom facing a illness without the grace of the Sacraments. Might you and your husband be willing to forgo marital relations in order to have the Sacraments? Maybe you can speak to your priest about living as brother and sister - the most important thing is to be strengthened by the Eucharist now!

 

[Rachel_1]

For this plan to work, the first marriage must be valid. In the tribunal system, this will be a limited check to see that nothing was obviously invalid about the first marriage, e.g., lack of form, prior marriage on the husband’s part, etc.

Well, with my first marriage, I was 18, married in vegas, not Catholic, and thought it would be forever, I can’t say what he thought, he was abusive, but not at first. The reason I left was because he got into drugs and started hitting me. Would any of that make it invalid?

 

[Rachel_1]

You can’t reapply under the same “title” (grounds) -

So are you saying that they can reapply after the appeal with different grounds?? Basically starting over using different reasons that the marriage isn’t valid?

 

[jmcrae]

Well, with my first marriage, I was 18, married in vegas, not Catholic, and thought it would be forever, I can’t say what he thought, he was abusive, but not at first. The reason I left was because he got into drugs and started hitting me. Would any of that make it invalid?

Nobody here can know for sure. Get an appointment with your priest and discuss it with him - he’s the only one who can really let you know whether you have enough to take to the Tribunal for an investigation.

 

[Rachel_1]

Ok, wow, I finally got through all the posts. I’m sorry for my many posts in reply to older ones, I was just trying to catch up with the thread.
OP, I’m so sorry for your husbands illness, I’ll be praying for him and for you. I’m hoping that you do find a canon lawyer to help you when you reapply. Try not to be too stressed out though, I know it’s hard, but you need to be strong for both of you right now.
I’m supposed to start my process on Monday, so my nerves are a little wacky because of it, which is why I read this entire thread. I’ve spent the last 3 months trying to gather documents (marriage licenses, death certificate, etc) and I’m having problems with a couple documents from California (they are super slow and not too helpful).
During these last three months while gathering the paperwork, I’ve had to search my soul about what I’ll do if I’m denied. This thread gave me a little hope though, now that I’m reading that one can reapply with a different cause (I think almost everyone covers mine lol… it’s just pick and choose in my case).
Because my current husband will not stay with me as “brother and sister” should it be denied, I’ve decided that if it’s denied, and I’ve appealed and it is still denied, that I’ll live single. It will hurt my current husband a lot though, but I’ve put it all in God’s hands. Now that I know that I can reapply, I may also do that, and if that is denied, then just accept it.
I would rather do what God wants, than what I want, no matter how hard it may be.
All that being said, I hope everything works out for you OP, and that it’s all in God’s will.

 

[forgetmenot]

Thanks.:angel1:

 

[redrosetea]

Ok, wow, I finally got through all the posts. I’m sorry for my many posts in reply to older ones, I was just trying to catch up with the thread.
OP, I’m so sorry for your husbands illness, I’ll be praying for him and for you. I’m hoping that you do find a canon lawyer to help you when you reapply. Try not to be too stressed out though, I know it’s hard, but you need to be strong for both of you right now.
I’m supposed to start my process on Monday, so my nerves are a little wacky because of it, which is why I read this entire thread. I’ve spent the last 3 months trying to gather documents (marriage licenses, death certificate, etc) and I’m having problems with a couple documents from California (they are super slow and not too helpful).
During these last three months while gathering the paperwork, I’ve had to search my soul about what I’ll do if I’m denied. This thread gave me a little hope though, now that I’m reading that one can reapply with a different cause (I think almost everyone covers mine lol… it’s just pick and choose in my case).
Because my current husband will not stay with me as “brother and sister” should it be denied, I’ve decided that if it’s denied, and I’ve appealed and it is still denied, that I’ll live single. It will hurt my current husband a lot though, but I’ve put it all in God’s hands. Now that I know that I can reapply, I may also do that, and if that is denied, then just accept it.
I would rather do what God wants, than what I want, no matter how hard it may be.
All that being said, I hope everything works out for you OP, and that it’s all in God’s will.

May God bless you for your courage and your faithfulness

 

[Just_Lurking]

Well, with my first marriage, I was 18, married in vegas, not Catholic, and thought it would be forever, I can’t say what he thought, he was abusive, but not at first. The reason I left was because he got into drugs and started hitting me. Would any of that make it invalid?

If neither you or your first husband were Catholic (or Eastern Orthodox), then getting married in Vegas was okay. If it was the first marriage for your first husband as well, then it’s looking good for you.

The abuse and drug problems won’t be considered.

 

[Rachel_1]

If neither you or your first husband were Catholic (or Eastern Orthodox), then getting married in Vegas was okay. If it was the first marriage for your first husband as well, then it’s looking good for you.

The abuse and drug problems won’t be considered.

No, we weren’t Catholic… well, I’m not sure, I was baptized Catholic as a baby, but not raised Catholic at all, so I don’t know if I was considered Catholic or not?
My first marriage was both of our first marriage, we were both 18, so if my first marriage is considered valid, and I married #2 while still in that valid marriage, then it should be invalid and I should get an annulment is what you’re saying?
There was a lot of other stuff with #2 also, like how he beat me, I left him while he was in jail (yes I have the paperwork for this), and afterward he told me he was going to this church and was all changed. He talked me into going even though I was pagan and I sort of got sucked into this church that was very spiritually abusive. The pastor of the church told me one night during prayer that if I didn’t marry him, I’d go to hell, this is the only reason I married him because he had started beating on me again. When the vows were said, I didn’t know anything about marriage being a Sacrament and everything within me knew marrying him was a mistake. I kept thinking that if the beating continues (because the marriage I was told would make it all better), that I would divorce him. Well, the beating continued and that church didn’t help me at all… they would see me come in with black eyes and stuff and when I would tell them what was going on I would be told “wives submit to your husbands as unto the Lord”… It was just a messed up situation all the way around. The entire time I was with him I never felt married to him. Anyway, I think I have multiple “causes” to put down for my annulment to him, I’m just trying to find the easiest, fastest one that will work.
BTW, current husband #3 I didn’t marry until after # 1 (vegas) passed away.

 

[chevalier]

So are you saying that they can reapply after the appeal with different grounds?? Basically starting over using different reasons that the marriage isn’t valid?

Marriage cases never become “res iudicata” (can. 1643), but this is from Dignitas Connubii (vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20050125_dignitas-connubii_en.html):

Art. 289 – § 1. Causes of the nullity of marriage never become* res iudicata* (cf. can. 1643).
§ 2. However, a matrimonial cause which has been judged by one tribunal can never be judged again by the same or another tribunal of the same grade, without prejudice to art. 9, § 2.

§ 3. This provision applies only if it is a matter of the same cause, that is, concerning the same marriage and the same ground of nullity.

(Art. 9 §2 concerns incompetence of the judge and there’s an exception that if the sentence has been declared null, the tribunal can proceed again in the same grade. In plain English, if the judgement is later found null, then the matter can be judged again.)

There are some things a tribunal could do to make it easier on people, such as extending time-limits for appeals etc., but being liberal about whether a case can or cannot be heard again can result in the sentence being quashed by a higher tribunal.

Well, with my first marriage, I was 18, married in vegas, not Catholic, and thought it would be forever, I can’t say what he thought, he was abusive, but not at first. The reason I left was because he got into drugs and started hitting me. Would any of that make it invalid?

That’s a question more of fact than of law and it would basically only be known in a particular case after the case were judged by the tribunal. The most you can know before and especially from one or two circumstances - or from a very short description such as yours - is whether you stand chance. In my opinion, it’s worth applying because it does look as if he had had serious mental and/or psychic problems and it’s possible they didn’t develop only after wedding, but rather were there before and the whole situation basically screams immaturity. Still, it’s possible that marriage was indeed valid, e.g. if his attitudes develop after wedding and from reasons not present before it (problems rooted before wedding but developing after it may count), and/or his problems, while serious, were not serious enough to incapacitate him from consenting.

 

[Just_Lurking]

No, we weren’t Catholic… well, I’m not sure, I was baptized Catholic as a baby, but not raised Catholic at all, so I don’t know if I was considered Catholic or not?

Under the 1983 canon law, this would be enough to make you Catholic. If your first and second marriages occurred after 1983, and neither took place inside the Catholic Church, then both marriages are likely invalid due to lack of form. That is a particularly easy case to get an annulment for.

(In fact, thinking about it a little more, you are good if the marriages occurred after 1949 or 1950. Prior to that, you would have qualified for an exception to the rule that you needed to marry in the Catholic Church.)

 

[Rachel_1]

Under the 1983 canon law, this would be enough to make you Catholic. If your first and second marriages occurred after 1983, and neither took place inside the Catholic Church, then both marriages are likely invalid due to lack of form. That is a particularly easy case to get an annulment for.

(In fact, thinking about it a little more, you are good if the marriages occurred after 1949 or 1950. Prior to that, you would have qualified for an exception to the rule that you needed to marry in the Catholic Church.)

Thanks for the answers I’ve received!
As far as this answer, would this count as I have never been confirmed or anything, just baptized as a baby?
Sorry OP, I don’t mean to throw my stuff in your thread like this, I, like you, have lots of questions.

 

[Just_Lurking]

As far as this answer, would this count as I have never been confirmed or anything, just baptized as a baby?

Yes, Catholic baptism is what counts, not any of the other sacraments. The tribunal will check the baptism registry at the church where you were baptized to confirm it.

The only exception under the 1983 canon law is for people who have officially renounced their Catholic faith in writing before a Catholic priest, after they were 18 years old. I’m assuming that you have not done this.

 

[forgetmenot]

Hi. I’m still paying a lot of attention to what’s being said here, and I’m happy that others are sharing because there’s a lot to be learned. Chevalier, you mentioned one thing, and that is immaturity. When the judge spoke with my spouse he flat out said “everyone’s immature” at that age. So I don’t get it??? We had initially thought these were grounds, are they not? This was a good part of his application. Can you answer this? Thanks for your continued help. Tomorrow I’m off for personal guidance in dealing with all this; perhaps I’ll get a few questions answered in the process…

 

[chevalier]

Hi. I’m still paying a lot of attention to what’s being said here, and I’m happy that others are sharing because there’s a lot to be learned. Chevalier, you mentioned one thing, and that is immaturity. When the judge spoke with my spouse he flat out said “everyone’s immature” at that age. So I don’t get it??? We had initially thought these were grounds, are they not? This was a good part of his application. Can you answer this? Thanks for your continued help. Tomorrow I’m off for personal guidance in dealing with all this; perhaps I’ll get a few questions answered in the process…

I believe I answered that part in the beginning. There’s no specific impediment or defect of consent listed as “immaturity”, but there is a number of defects such as insufficient use of reason or inability to undertake or perform the essential obligations of marriage for reasons of psychic nature, where gross immaturity could fall. This would mean being mentally less than adult, not just feeling and acting 20 at 35. Someone who would be unable to stay faithful would qualify, someone who’d be a pain to live with because of being prone to acting silly or experiencing mood swings - not necessarily. A judge shouldn’t really allow himself witty remarks or potentially misleading statements such as “immaturity has no bearing” because that would be like, “cheating has no bearing” (and actually, a clearer example than cheating) - obviously, of itself it has none, but it can be proof of a circumstance incapacitating a person from making the necessary consent, or proof of simulation of consent.

 

[forgetmenot]

Thanks, Chevalier. I needed a little more imput here. I know we’re gonna pick up the ball again in the future and when we do we’ll be securing the proper assistance. By the way, do you know anything about the Knights of Notre Dame?