Annulment Uncertainty

[Crushor]

Please forgive the lack of knowledge on this subject, however I feel the absolute need to get this out there…
Good morning everyone. I’m completely confused. For those who read my meet and greet you know my past with the Church, for those who haven’t…I’ve walked the right road with the church since birth (short answer). My thought/question is…I have spoken to my local Priest concerning starting an Annulment. After a 30-40 minute conversation, my local priest told me that I MAY be able to qualify for one category, however wasn’t sure. Mind you that this priest has been a Priest for many years. He told me to contact the local diocesan rep for annulments. This is a lay person not in our parish but yes, in our diocese. I spoke to her twice on the phone and I basically received a similar “we’re not sure which category to file under.” This being said…if I am 1) unable to file for annulment…or 2) I file and am denied due to unforeseen circumstances, then what becomes of my ability to be Catholic? Am I kicked out of the church, do I just not have the opportunity to receive the sacraments? When I have the chance (sorry, sad humor amongst an important question) to kick the urn through the goal post of life, will I be able to have a catholic mass prior to the final ride to the Cemetary? During the conversation with my priest, he told me that if I was denied I couldn’t remarry. So…at the risk of saying this and looking for (name removed by moderator)ut without having all the facts…the diocesan tribunal, is nothing more than lay persons (?) deciding on my future with documentation that was generated by other persons…? I did take the opportunity to let my local priest know that my intentions, regardless of the church, to marry the lady who, yes is my fiancé…I don’t want to get to the end of the road, only to die alone. Thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Horton]

Please forgive the lack of knowledge on this subject, however I feel the absolute need to get this out there…

Good morning everyone. I’m completely confused. For those who read my meet and greet you know my past with the Church, for those who haven’t…I’ve walked the right road with the church since birth (short answer). My thought/question is…I have spoken to my local Priest concerning starting an Annulment. After a 30-40 minute conversation, my local priest told me that I MAY be able to qualify for one category, however wasn’t sure. Mind you that this priest has been a Priest for many years. He told me to contact the local diocesan rep for annulments. This is a lay person not in our parish but yes, in our diocese. I spoke to her twice on the phone and I basically received a similar “we’re not sure which category to file under.”

 

[Brendan]

. So…at the risk of saying this and looking for (name removed by moderator)ut without having all the facts…the diocesan tribunal, is nothing more than lay persons (?) deciding on my future with documentation that was generated by other persons.

The Diocesan Tribunal is composed of clerics ( priests and deacons), assisted by qualified laymen.

Their purpose is to look at the Sacrament in light of what the Church teaches, in both Sacramental Theology and Canon Law.

All the members of the tribunal are trained in both fields, generally with advanced degrees.

The documentation is evidence provided by those who have knowledge of the case, that includes both parties, and may include witnesses (family or friends) who may offer testimony on the case.

 

[Gorgias]

My thought/question is…I have spoken to my local Priest concerning starting an Annulment. After a 30-40 minute conversation, my local priest told me that I MAY be able to qualify for one category, however wasn’t sure. Mind you that this priest has been a Priest for many years.

Right – so, he heard what you had told him, but he was just being cautious. Maybe there’s more to the story, or maybe there’s some fact that needed to be verified. So, the cautious response is “maybe”, rather than a categorical “yes” or “no.”

He told me to contact the local diocesan rep for annulments. This is a lay person not in our parish but yes, in our diocese. I spoke to her twice on the phone and I basically received a similar “we’re not sure which category to file under.”

Right – because she, too, didn’t have all the info and all the documentation. So, likewise, she can’t give you a definite answer. But, (as others have mentioned), if you embark on this process, an advocate will be assigned to help you walk through this process, and together, you’ll be able to reach a decision about “what category” your situation falls under. Then, trained canon lawyer(s) will review your case – and, they might even suggest an approach that you or your advocate hadn’t considered! – and they’ll reach a decision.

I file and am denied due to unforeseen circumstances, then what becomes of my ability to be Catholic? Am I kicked out of the church, do I just not have the opportunity to receive the sacraments?

If the Church determines that you have a valid marriage, then the promise “till death do us part” is still in effect. Although you’ve divorced, you’re still able to receive the Sacraments (unless you’ve attempted marriage outside the Church). Your first marriage (if it’s determined to be valid) will continue to be valid until one of you passes away. However, unless you’re re-married outside the Church, you can still receive the sacraments.

When I have the chance (sorry, sad humor amongst an important question) to kick the urn through the goal post of life, will I be able to have a catholic mass prior to the final ride to the Cemetary?

Yes, your divorce will not preclude you from having a Catholic funeral.

I did take the opportunity to let my local priest know that my intentions, regardless of the church, to marry the lady who, yes is my fiancé

This probably explains why your priest didn’t give you a definite “yes” or “no”. You walked in there saying, “look, I’m getting married – in the Church or outside the Church – but I want to give the Church a chance to tell me that my first marriage wasn’t valid.” Under these circumstances, he really can’t (in good conscience) give you any assurances as to the length or outcome of the nullity process, and he certainly doesn’t want to say “nope, sorry”, if that means that his expectation is that you’ll leave the Church and marry civilly (or in your fiancee’s denomination).

I would encourage you to begin the nullity process. And, of course, to evaluate whether your ability to receive the Sacraments is important to you. I’ll be praying for you!

 

[PaulfromIowa]

OP, I would talk to a canon lawyer, an expert in the Church’s Code of Canon Law. Ask your diocese about canon lawyers in your area.

 

[MaryT777]

I did receive an annulment from the Church. I would highly recommend talking to a Canon ATTORNEY to help you complete the task. They are the most knowledgeable about the process. Just contact the Marriage Tribunal and ask if they have one that can help you.
My discussion with two priests left me without hope. Given the long arduous process no priest can really tell you one way or the other but the Canon attorney helped me tremendously when I had the chance to speak with him initially.

He worked without an additional charge for the Church. Best wishes and good luck with everything.

PS Mine was 350.00 but that was years ago.

Mary.

 

[Crushor]

Right – so, he heard what you had told him, but he was just being cautious. Maybe there’s more to the story, or maybe there’s some fact that needed to be verified. So, the cautious response is “maybe”, rather than a categorical “yes” or “no.”

Right – because she, too, didn’t have all the info and all the documentation. So, likewise, she can’t give you a definite answer. But, (as others have mentioned), if you embark on this process, an advocate will be assigned to help you walk through this process, and together, you’ll be able to reach a decision about “what category” your situation falls under. Then, trained canon lawyer(s) will review your case – and, they might even suggest an approach that you or your advocate hadn’t considered! – and they’ll reach a decision.

If the Church determines that you have a valid marriage, then the promise “till death do us part” is still in effect. Although you’ve divorced, you’re still able to receive the Sacraments (unless you’ve attempted marriage outside the Church). Your first marriage (if it’s determined to be valid) will continue to be valid until one of you passes away. However, unless you’re re-married outside the Church, you can still receive the sacraments.

Yes, your divorce will not preclude you from having a Catholic funeral.

This probably explains why your priest didn’t give you a definite “yes” or “no”. You walked in there saying, “look, I’m getting married – in the Church or outside the Church – but I want to give the Church a chance to tell me that my first marriage wasn’t valid.” Under these circumstances, he really can’t (in good conscience) give you any assurances as to the length or outcome of the nullity process, and he certainly doesn’t want to say “nope, sorry”, if that means that his expectation is that you’ll leave the Church and marry civilly (or in your fiancee’s denomination).

I would encourage you to begin the nullity process. And, of course, to evaluate whether your ability to receive the Sacraments is important to you. I’ll be praying for you!

I would like to say, Georgias, as I do appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, it is often time difficult to understand what is truly being said on a forum. I did not approach it as “look, I’m getting married…” My point is that I would assume that a Catholic priest should be able to give me a more than by guess and by golly for an answer. He was provided all pertinent information to give me a basic answer as to what I could file under. At the end of our conversation, he wasn’t sure that my 22yr marriage with infidelity on my ex’s part fit any criteria. So my point was in reference to the fact that I was told there may less a 50% chance of getting an annulment. I find it difficult to understand why I must continue to feel the negative burden from what is generated by someone else.

 

[1ke]

Please forgive the lack of knowledge on this subject, however I feel the absolute need to get this out there…
Good morning everyone. I’m completely confused. For those who read my meet and greet you know my past with the Church, for those who haven’t…I’ve walked the right road with the church since birth (short answer). My thought/question is…I have spoken to my local Priest concerning starting an Annulment. After a 30-40 minute conversation, my local priest told me that I MAY be able to qualify for one category, however wasn’t sure. Mind you that this priest has been a Priest for many years. He told me to contact the local diocesan rep for annulments. This is a lay person not in our parish but yes, in our diocese. I spoke to her twice on the phone and I basically received a similar “we’re not sure which category to file under.”

So your marriage is presumed valid unless evidence indicates otherwise. So, you have to have two things: grounds and evidence. A couple of phone conversations can start the process, but certainly cannot give you a conclusive answer. Investigation, testimony, and evidence are needed.

I can recommend an excellent book for you. Annulment: The Wedding That Was by Michael Smith Foster. I suggest you buy it from Amazon or get it through your inter library loan.

This being said…if I am 1) unable to file for annulment…or 2) I file and am denied due to unforeseen circumstances, then what becomes of my ability to be Catholic?

Nothing.

Am I kicked out of the church,

Of course not.

do I just not have the opportunity to receive the sacraments?

Your sacramental life continues. Divorce is not an impediment to receiving the sacraments (assuming you’ve been to confession for any part you had in the breakdown of the marriage).

When I have the chance (sorry, sad humor amongst an important question) to kick the urn through the goal post of life, will I be able to have a catholic mass prior to the final ride to the Cemetary?

Yes.

During the conversation with my priest, he told me that if I was denied I couldn’t remarry.

That is correct. You are already married.

If you present evidence to the tribunal that you are not in fact married, then you would be free to marry.

So…at the risk of saying this and looking for (name removed by moderator)ut without having all the facts…the diocesan tribunal, is nothing more than lay persons (?) deciding on my future with documentation that was generated by other persons…?

No. The tribunal consists of canon lawyers, some of whom may be priests and others who may be lay people. They are deciding based on testimony, facts, and evidence presented to them.

I did take the opportunity to let my local priest know that my intentions, regardless of the church, to marry the lady who, yes is my fiancé…I don’t want to get to the end of the road, only to die alone. Thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Well, that is an entirely different question than what you asked above. Divorce does not put you outside the sacraments, adultery does.

Then you would indeed be putting yourself outside the Church and outside the Sacraments. It is not the Church preventing you from sacraments. If you do this, then you are preventing yourself from the sacraments and yes you will have to answer for that and yes that could impact your ability to have a Catholic funeral and all the other things you mention above. You are still Catholic, but one in a state of serious, ongoing sin-- adultery-- if you attempt to marry someone when you are not free to do so.

You need to step back. You are not free to marry.

I highly recommend you get the book I suggest above.

 

[1ke]

I would like to say, Georgias, as I do appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, it is often time difficult to understand what is truly being said on a forum. I did not approach it as “look, I’m getting married…” My point is that I would assume that a Catholic priest should be able to give me a more than by guess and by golly for an answer. He was provided all pertinent information to give me a basic answer as to what I could file under. At the end of our conversation, he wasn’t sure that my 22yr marriage with infidelity on my ex’s part fit any criteria. So my point was in reference to the fact that I was told there may less a 50% chance of getting an annulment. I find it difficult to understand why I must continue to feel the negative burden from what is generated by someone else.

Infidelity is not grounds for a decree of nullity.

If she was unfaithful before your vows and it continued, or if she deceived you and defrauded you, then perhaps there are grounds.

A priest cannot tell you “yes” or “no” without all the information.

 

[Horton]

I would like to say, Georgias, as I do appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, it is often time difficult to understand what is truly being said on a forum. **I did not approach it as “look, I’m getting married…” ** My point is that I would assume that a Catholic priest should be able to give me a more than by guess and by golly for an answer. He was provided all pertinent information to give me a basic answer as to what I could file under. At the end of our conversation, he wasn’t sure that my 22yr marriage with infidelity on my ex’s part fit any criteria. So my point was in reference to the fact that I was told there may less a 50% chance of getting an annulment. I find it difficult to understand why I must continue to feel the negative burden from what is generated by someone else.

Bolding mine - but you said this in the OP.

You have a 100% chance of not getting one if you never submit a petition. A parish priest has so many responsibilities that we can’t expect them to know every detail of every situation. There is no way a priest or an advocate or even a canon lawyer can give you a definitive answer WITHOUT ALL the information & documentation. This is where submitting the petition is in your best interest.

 

[MaryT777]

The problem seems to be that the parish layperson does not even know what category to file under. That to me is a HUGE problem that that person will be of little use to the OP. You must file under a category was my understanding.

Having someone file for you who can do no better is not going to be beneficial at all. As a Catholic you have a right to file an for a decree of nullity and this person seems not to know what to do.

This is why I suggest, the next step. A Canon attorney. Someone too busy as another poster put it to “get some details” is not the right person to talk with. An initial assessment of some time is NEEDED to get the grounds worked out.

Mary.

 

[Horton]

The problem seems to be that the parish layperson does not even know what category to file under. That to me is a HUGE problem that that person will be of little use to the OP. You must file under a category was my understanding.

Having someone file for you who can do no better is not going to be beneficial at all. As a Catholic you have a right to file an for a decree of nullity and this person seems not to know what to do.

This is why I suggest, the next step. A Canon attorney. Someone too busy as another poster put it to “get some details” is not the right person to talk with. An initial assessment of some time is NEEDED to get the grounds worked out.

Mary.

Mary while your information is correct there is quite a bit the OP CAN do before having to speak to a canon lawyer. Filling out the petition is the 1st step. I would assume the person the OP spoke to at the diocesan office was a case manager for the tribunal and could only give basic info on the process. The initial petition is what an advocate and the tribunal uses to make the determination of what type of marriage case it is.

The OP can get a thousand answers here on this forum, even many answers to support his contention that he will not get what he wants but it means nothing unless he submits a petition to have his marriage investigated.

I’m one of those “parish laypersons” and even with training I don’t always know what the grounds may be which is why I never tell a petitioner what the grounds may be or the outcome until the tribunal responds to the petition.

 

[MaryT777]

Mary while your information is correct there is quite a bit the OP CAN do before having to speak to a canon lawyer. Filling out the petition is the 1st step. I would assume the person the OP spoke to at the diocesan office was a case manager for the tribunal and could only give basic info on the process. The initial petition is what an advocate and the tribunal uses to make the determination of what type of marriage case it is.

The OP can get a thousand answers here on this forum, even many answers to support his contention that he will not get what he wants but it means nothing unless he submits a petition to have his marriage investigated.

I’m one of those “parish laypersons” and even with training I don’t always know what the grounds may be which is why I never tell a petitioner what the grounds may be or the outcome until the tribunal responds to the petition.

 

[MaryT777]

Horton,

I appreciate the work you do for the Church.

I still recommend a Canon attorney if a person feels they are being dissuaded or no one has the time to assist them in a proper manner. Regretfully my experience with the lay people at the tribunal was not that great.

My Canon attorney was awesome. Not every situation is the same of course and perhaps in some cases the case that are more complicated as mine was needs specialized assistance.

Just my 2 cents worth.

God Bless,

Mary.

 

[polki]

I would like to say, Georgias, as I do appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, it is often time difficult to understand what is truly being said on a forum. I did not approach it as “look, I’m getting married…” My point is that I would assume that a Catholic priest should be able to give me a more than by guess and by golly for an answer. He was provided all pertinent information to give me a basic answer as to what I could file under. At the end of our conversation, he wasn’t sure that my 22yr marriage with infidelity on my ex’s part fit any criteria. So my point was in reference to the fact that I was told there may less a 50% chance of getting an annulment. I find it difficult to understand why I must continue to feel the negative burden from what is generated by someone else.

Infidelity during a marriage is not grounds for an annulment. The validity of a marriage is determined by what was occurring at the time the marriage took place. It is determined by a Tribunal. No priest or layperson is able to tell you if your marriage is valid, “what to file under”, or “what percent chance you have at obtaining an annulment.” If they do, they should be reported to the bishop. Only the Tribunal can determine the validity of your marriage. That’s why the priest didn’t give you a more definitive answer. He can’t.

.

 

[Horton]

Infidelity during a marriage is not grounds for an annulment. The validity of a marriage is determined by what was occurring at the time the marriage took place. It is determined by a Tribunal. No priest or layperson is able to tell you if your marriage is valid, “what to file under”, or “what percent chance you have at obtaining an annulment.” If they do, they should be reported to the bishop. Only the Tribunal can determine the validity of your marriage. That’s why the priest didn’t give you a more definitive answer. He can’t.

.

 

[Gorgias]

I would like to say, Georgias, as I do appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, it is often time difficult to understand what is truly being said on a forum. I did not approach it as “look, I’m getting married…”

Hmm… did I misunderstand what you meant, then, when you wrote, “I did take the opportunity to let my local priest know that my intentions, regardless of the church, to marry the lady who, yes is my fiancé”…? By “regardless of the church,” I took you to mean “Catholic Church, or if not Protestant church, or if not, …”. Am I mistaken? Cause, the way I read it, you told him that you were gonna marry this women in the Church if possible and outside the Church otherwise.

My point is that I would assume that a Catholic priest should be able to give me a more than by guess and by golly for an answer. He was provided all pertinent information to give me a basic answer as to what I could file under.

The point – that 1ke and others have already mentioned to you – is that a single conversation isn’t sufficient for giving you a certain answer. It would have been irresponsible for him to have given you a basic “yes or no” answer. At best, he could’ve answered “it looks like…”, but even that’s a difficult approach. And, if he knows that – if you didn’t get the answer you wanted – you were planning on marrying outside the Church, then he really wouldn’t have any incentive to give you an answer, since it could set up false expectations or encourage you to leave the Church. If you came to me with that question, I wouldn’t give you an answer other than “start the process and see where it leads,” either…

So my point was in reference to the fact that I was told there may less a 50% chance of getting an annulment.

I can’t really speak to this assessment.

I find it difficult to understand why I must continue to feel the negative burden from what is generated by someone else.

In my experience, divorces are rarely the exclusive fault of one of the spouses. Even as you’ve mentioned it here, we can’t tell what you mean. But, the question you ask is a good one. The answer depends on a ton of variables. How much ‘cheating’ are we talking about? One affair? Many? How long did it endure? Who left the marriage? And, as it affects nullity questions: does the existence of infidelity and of divorce in the marriage imply that, at the time of the wedding, one or both of you didn’t intend fidelity or permanence? That’s the $64,000 question…

 

[Magdalen2013]

Crushor, an annulment means that there was no marriage, that it did not exist. What happened AFTER the ceremony does have some application to the situation, but what the tribunal will be looking for is the intent of the couple taking the vows.

That’s why the priest can’t give you an answer after a brief discussion – he only has YOU in front of him when he would need to be able to talk to your (former?) spouse as well. He’s not a mind-reader, and can’t know what her intentions were at the time of the wedding, so there’s no way he can give you an answer – plus, it is not the priest’s place to make this decision – only the tribunal can decide.

Telling the priest that you plan to marry your current inamorata, whether you can get a decree of nullity or not, was not a good idea. Also, unless the priest is a canon lawyer, he probably doesn’t know enough about this to be able to venture an opinion. There is a reason that there are specialists who handle these proceedings.

Seriously, contact the diocese and ask them to refer you to a canon lawyer.

 

[ChadS]

I would like to say, Georgias, as I do appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut, it is often time difficult to understand what is truly being said on a forum. I did not approach it as “look, I’m getting married…” My point is that I would assume that a Catholic priest should be able to give me a more than by guess and by golly for an answer. He was provided all pertinent information to give me a basic answer as to what I could file under. At the end of our conversation, he wasn’t sure that my 22yr marriage with infidelity on my ex’s part fit any criteria. So my point was in reference to the fact that I was told there may less a 50% chance of getting an annulment. I find it difficult to understand why I must continue to feel the negative burden from what is generated by someone else.

I would never assume a priest has all the pertinent information or that they have more than a general idea of how the tribunal works. Plus, why would they say “sure you’ll get an annulment” and then when it doesn’t go through you end up feeling betrayed.

I knew a lawyer once who wanted to volunteer to be on the tribunal in my old diocese. He told me he was stunned at all the extra training he’d have to go through and the complexity of it all. The priests and lay people who make up the tribunals are specifically trained in Canon law and also in civil law. So I wouldn’t be surprised if a parish priest wouldn’t give a more than a “I really don’t know” answer.

All the pertinent information won’t be known until the tribunal has all the forms filled out completely and any and all question answered satisfactorily from you, friends, witnesses, your wife, and anybody else the tribunal feels they should know about. I have a friend who filled out one of these forms for a friend’s annulment petition and he said aside from his dissertation it was one of the most difficult and draining experiences of his life. After all he was asked to dissect and analyze the best he could what happened in a marriage between two people he knew for a long time.

Good luck with your petition and be prepared for a long road ahead.

ChadS