Annulment

[Catholic2003]

Deacon Ed:

Sorry, I did misunderstand what you were saying. However, you are still incorrect. There are two canons that address the issue of Catholics marrying Orthodox (1127 and 1160). Neither address the issue of an Orthodox marrying a member of some other Christian (or non-christian) tradition.

The applicable canon is CCEO 781. I quoted both CCEO 780 and 781 in full in my post #12 of the “Catholic and Greek Orthodox wedding” thread; here again is CCEO 781:

Canon 781 If sometimes the Church must pronounce a judgment about the validity of a marriage between baptized non-Catholics:

1º regarding the law to which the parties were subject at the time of their wedding, can. 780, §2 is to be observed;

2º regarding the form of marriage celebration, the Church recognizes any form prescribed or admitted by the law to which the parties were subject at the time of their wedding provided that the consent was expressed publicly and, if at least one of the parties is a baptized member of an Eastern non-Catholic Church, the marriage was celebrated with a sacred rite.

As to the power of the Catholic Church to bind non-Catholic Christians with regard to marriage law, here is a quote from the Nullity of Marriage by Frank J. Sheed:

If two baptized Protestants marry in church or before the registrar, they receive the sacrament though they may never have heard that marriage is a sacrament. Therefore, since the marriage of the baptized is always a sacrament, it is directly subject to the legislation of the Church: for obviously the question “Are A and B (both of them baptized) married?” is really a question: “Did A and B receive the sacrament of matrimony?”; and to that question only the Church can give an answer–the State is not concerned with sacraments.

The 1917 Canon Law did in fact bind Protestants by ecclesiastical marriage law; however, this was changed in 1983 Canon Law by a deliberate decision of the revision committee.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Catholic2003:

There is no Latin canon equivalent to this Eastern canon. Because of the nature of the Eastern Catholic Churches, this code permits the Eastern Churches to recognize a validity issue with regard to the Orthodox. The Latin Church does not. This is, however, a hypothetical case which, in the experience of my Eastern canonist friend, has never come up.

And, of course, when I speak of canon law I speak only of the current law, not any which has been abbrogated.

Deacon Ed

 

[Catholic2003]

Deacon Ed:

This is, however, a hypothetical case which, in the experience of my Eastern canonist friend, has never come up.

The annulment of my first marriage was based on CCEO 781 2º. The only difference between my case and the hypothetical is that I was married in a Protestant church and not by a justice of the peace.
Deacon Ed:

There is no Latin canon equivalent to this Eastern canon. Because of the nature of the Eastern Catholic Churches, this code permits the Eastern Churches to recognize a validity issue with regard to the Orthodox. The Latin Church does not.

Are you trying to say that the Latin Church still considers me married to my first wife, and only the Eastern Catholic Churches consider my current marriage valid? If so, I think perhaps you are missing the point of the overall unity of the Catholic Church as a whole.

P.S. My current marriage was convalidated in the Latin Church, as my wife is a Latin Rite Catholic. I don’t think the priest would have done that had the Latin Church still considered my prior marriage valid.
Deacon Ed:

And, of course, when I speak of canon law I speak only of the current law, not any which has been abbrogated.

My only point was that your statement, “Because the Catholic Church can only bind Catholics with regard to the laws of marriage” might better have been phrased, “Because the Catholic Church currently chooses to only bind Catholics with regard to the laws of marriage.”

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Catholic2003:

You’ve got me. This is a case I’ve never seen (and I’ve been doing annulments for some 15 years and I’m also a bi-ritual deacon serving the Melkite Church) and my canonist friend (a Melkite priest who is a doctoral candidate in canon law) says he’s never seen.

If I recall correctly, you were a Protestant and, apparently, had been married to an member of the Orthodox Church. If your ex-wife had come to us we would have suggested she enter the Eastern Church which most closely corresponded to her Orthodox Tradition (e.g., Russian Orthodox → Ruthenian/Ukranian or Russian in this country; Greek → probably again Ruthenian since there is no Greek Catholics; Antiochian Orthodox → Melkite).

I’m curious as to where your annulment was granted…

And, yes, perhaps it should have been phrased “Since the Catholic Church does not bind…”

Deacon Ed

 

[Catholic2003]

I was Russian Orthodox and my first wife was Protestant. I live in the diocese of Richmond, Virginia, where Eastern Orthodox are apparently very rare, so nobody at the parish knew how to deal with me. When I went to join the Catholic Church (at my current wife’s parish), they put me in RCIA just like everyone else. At the Easter Vigil, I was even “re-confirmed”, although that was probably just a case of forgetfulness on the part of the priest, as we had discussed beforehand that my Orthodox chrismation would suffice for the sacrament of confirmation.

For the annulment, the priest used the “lack of canonical form” paperwork for Catholics, but he had to scratch out a few things and write in some others. It was approved by the diocesan tribunal in a week. The hard part was obtaining a copy of my Russian Orthodox baptismal certificate, as the Orthodox weren’t very happy to see me joining the Catholic Church.

 

[asquared]

the point here is that you cannot use hypothetical cases and say what will be decided in the marriage tribunal regarding the validity or nullity of a marriage. every case is different and must be referred to the pastor. catechists on the RCIA team cannot make these judgements, and the marriage situation must be resolved before someone can continue with the RCIA process.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Catholic2003:

I was Russian Orthodox and my first wife was Protestant. I live in the diocese of Richmond, Virginia, where Eastern Orthodox are apparently very rare, so nobody at the parish knew how to deal with me. When I went to join the Catholic Church (at my current wife’s parish), they put me in RCIA just like everyone else. At the Easter Vigil, I was even “re-confirmed”, although that was probably just a case of forgetfulness on the part of the priest, as we had discussed beforehand that my Orthodox chrismation would suffice for the sacrament of confirmation.

For the annulment, the priest used the “lack of canonical form” paperwork for Catholics, but he had to scratch out a few things and write in some others. It was approved by the diocesan tribunal in a week. The hard part was obtaining a copy of my Russian Orthodox baptismal certificate, as the Orthodox weren’t very happy to see me joining the Catholic Church.

Can I assume you were not ROCOR? Had you been in the Pennsylvania (considered the Holy Land for Eastern Catholics of Ruthenian descent) there would have been a lot more familiarity. You are correct that you should not have had to do the RCIA process or been “re-confirmed” (there ain’t no such beast). You should simply have made a profession of faith, perhaps a confession, and been received into the Church.

This is a case where I have learned something… Thanks for the education.

BTW, there is a Russian Catholic community in New York if you are ever up that way. There is also one in San Francisco, El Segundo (near Los Angeles) and a Russian Catholic mission in Denver.

Deacon Ed

 

[Catholic2003]

Deacon Ed:

Can I assume you were not ROCOR? Had you been in the Pennsylvania (considered the Holy Land for Eastern Catholics of Ruthenian descent) there would have been a lot more familiarity.

I was OCA. I was actually baptized in Pennsylvania (near Harrisburg), where my mother’s family lived.
Deacon Ed:

You are correct that you should not have had to do the RCIA process or been “re-confirmed” (there ain’t no such beast). You should simply have made a profession of faith, perhaps a confession, and been received into the Church.

I didn’t put up an objection to the RCIA process, as I got the opportunity to learn a lot about the Catholic faith. I did raise a bit of a stink about the “re-confirmation”, but nobody understood what I was complaining about. One fellow RCIA member, who had been a Baptist, seemed to think that I was trying to hold on to my Orthodox origins by insisting on skipping the confirmation part of the Easter Vigil service, and wondered how I felt when the priest performed the confirmation ritual on me anyway. I tried to tell him about the indelible mark left by confirmation, and why simulation of a sacrament was a bad thing, but he was coming from a denomination where people can be rebaptized as many times as they feel like.

Thanks for the tips on Russian Catholic communities. I will keep those locations in mind as we plan our summer vacations.