Annulments/support group

[weaverbird]

Right. It depends on when the Sentence is signed. If it is signed on or after Dec. 8, there is no “automatic appeal.” This applies everywhere for all marriage nullity cases.

Dan

Dan, Im hoping you’re correct on this!!
Im still waiting for my first ruling and in the event that its affirmative, itd be great news to hear that Id be finished! Im just not sure since when I called my San Antonio tribunal Dec 9th to ask on the matter, they told me that because my case has been in the system since Jan 31, 2015 (The day my annulment questionaire was turned into the tribunal’s office by my parish’s Special Ministries Deacon) that we would fall under the old format and that only new cases would receive the reformed process.

Have you heard from official sources that ALL nullity cases are to completed after the first instance decision, if its signed by the judge, after Dec 8th? I cannot find any sources that state that the second court will no longer be receiving affirmative cases after Dec 8th.

Im REALLY hoping im almost done… Its been a year already!

 

[Guineviere]

Dan, Im hoping you’re correct on this!!
Im still waiting for my first ruling and in the event that its affirmative, itd be great news to hear that Id be finished! Im just not sure since when I called my San Antonio tribunal Dec 9th to ask on the matter, they told me that because my case has been in the system since Jan 31, 2015 (The day my annulment questionaire was turned into the tribunal’s office by my parish’s Special Ministries Deacon) that we would fall under the old format and that only new cases would receive the reformed process.

Have you heard from official sources that ALL nullity cases are to completed after the first instance decision, if its signed by the judge, after Dec 8th? I cannot find any sources that state that the second court will no longer be receiving affirmative cases after Dec 8th.

Im REALLY hoping im almost done… Its been a year already!

We were told the same thing in November, our case was accepted in August 2014. We called back after December 8th and they still weren’t clear what they were going to be doing with existing cases. We were told we might be one of the first cases to skip the second judgement but they couldn’t commit to that. We were told to call back in January. The office was closed last week, so hopefully we will know something this week.

 

[Guineviere]

I was merely curious as to where the rule was written that they must get an annulment before becoming Catholic. eg: if you knew the legal context. I’ve never read the rule that I can recall.

I was curious too. If someone is divorced and not in a relationship why couldn’t they go through RCIA?

 

[AnchoredInHope]

I was curious too. If someone is divorced and not in a relationship why couldn’t they go through RCIA?

They can and they can receive all sacraments too. In my instance I am in RCIA but I am civilly remarried…so I can be in RCIA but cannot receive communion until my annulment is (I hope) approved.

 

[AnnieKav]

I am a Protestant discerning a calling to Catholicism. My husband was widowed after 35 years of marriage but had a prior marriage that lasted one year in 1960. Since 55 years have passed, he doesn’t know the first wife’s current last name or her whereabouts which I understand is required for an annulment petition.

I understand if an annulment is not possible, we can choose to live as brother and sister and then I can be received into the Church. We already are continent because of age and medical issues. Do I still have to apply for the annulment first and will the Tribunal outright reject without any info for the respondent?
Annie

 

[Peebo]

I am a Protestant discerning a calling to Catholicism. My husband was widowed after 35 years of marriage but had a prior marriage that lasted one year in 1960. Since 55 years have passed, he doesn’t know the first wife’s current last name or her whereabouts which I understand is required for an annulment petition.

I understand if an annulment is not possible, we can choose to live as brother and sister and then I can be received into the Church. We already are continent because of age and medical issues. Do I still have to apply for the annulment first and will the Tribunal outright reject without any info for the respondent?
Annie

My wife was previously married and could only find one witness to her wedding as it was a “shotgun wedding” decades ago…with only family and a preacher…they had all passed away except one…a brother in law…three witnesses were the required number but that was impossible…she had to see a “special witness” to answer some questions…her statement was accepted by the tribunal…her annulment has now been affirmed and she is waiting for final execution of the decree of nullity…I think that as both of you are living as brother and sister then you could still be received into the church while waiting for the annulment…because of the length of time since you husbands first marriage and the difficulty in finding his then spouse or any witnesses…there is a Canon Lawyer (DAN) who comes on here and answers questions…hopefully he will read your post and be able to set you on the right path…good luck and God Bless

 

[dans0622]

Dan…

Have you heard from official sources that ALL nullity cases are to completed after the first instance decision, if its signed by the judge, after Dec 8th? I cannot find any sources that state that the second court will no longer be receiving affirmative cases after Dec 8th.

Im REALLY hoping im almost done… Its been a year already!

Hello,

In the document that changed the procedures, the Pope himself said the following:

“The provisions of the can. 1679 will apply to sentences declaring the nullity of marriage
published starting from the day this Motu proprio comes into force.”

Canon 1679 sayes one affirmative decision is enough. The day the “motu proprio” came into force was December 8, 2015.

It’s really not a disputed question so I don’t know why there would be any uncertainty about this anywhere…

Dan

 

[dans0622]

I am a Protestant discerning a calling to Catholicism. My husband was widowed after 35 years of marriage but had a prior marriage that lasted one year in 1960. Since 55 years have passed, he doesn’t know the first wife’s current last name or her whereabouts which I understand is required for an annulment petition.

I understand if an annulment is not possible, we can choose to live as brother and sister and then I can be received into the Church. We already are continent because of age and medical issues. Do I still have to apply for the annulment first and will the Tribunal outright reject without any info for the respondent?
Annie

Hello,

This is not an unheard-of situation. The case is not rejected if there is simply no way to find the Respondent. You, by the way, would not have to seek the declaration since you, I presume, weren’t married before.

Your local tribunal can give more details. Again, it’s not a unique problem.

Dan

 

[Convert1]

Hello,

In the document that changed the procedures, the Pope himself said the following:

“The provisions of the can. 1679 will apply to sentences declaring the nullity of marriage
published starting from the day this Motu proprio comes into force.”

Canon 1679 sayes one affirmative decision is enough. The day the “motu proprio” came into force was December 8, 2015.

It’s really not a disputed question so I don’t know why there would be any uncertainty about this anywhere…

Dan

The information I received from the Tribunal I am using coordinates with Dan’s quote. My advocate stated it was dependent on the date the judges make the decision; not the date the petition is submitted. Any decision after December 8th does not need a second review by an additional Diocese. Thanks, Dan!

 

[Convert1]

They can and they can receive all sacraments too. In my instance I am in RCIA but I am civilly remarried…so I can be in RCIA but cannot receive communion until my annulment is (I hope) approved.

Same here. I went through RCIA remarried and filed an annulment. I could not be confirmed or receive the sacraments. (16 months and still waiting for a decision)

But there were several divorced folks in my RCIA that were confirmed or Baptized during Easter vigil. It’s the re-married part that causes an issue.

 

[AnchoredInHope]

Same here. I went through RCIA remarried and filed an annulment. I could not be confirmed or receive the sacraments. (16 months and still waiting for a decision)

But there were several divorced folks in my RCIA that were confirmed or Baptized during Easter vigil. It’s the re-married part that causes an issue.

16 months? I understand why the need for the process but I am struggling with why it takes so long. No disrespect to the canon lawyer who posts here or any of them because I know this is a genuinely important matter that should be (and is) taken seriously, but it’s daunting to anyone who is trying to convert to be in this second tier. Nobody at my parish makes me feel unwelcome or lesser than but it’s just always on my heart that I can’t truly be Catholic until I prove how immature my decision from 8 years ago to marry a man who didn’t want to get married to me and who never wanted to have children and wouldn’t. How do you handle the waiting time for last 16 months? I’m afraid that due to my age I really can’t wait much longer before trying to have a child with my civilly married husband–he and I both want a child and I want to raise that child Catholic. It’s a tough situation to be in.

 

[Convert1]

I have been pondering this question for some time. Where in the Canon code does it specify the denial of communion because of being in an invalid marriage? I have read the following code:

Canon 915 of the Code of Canon Law indicates the principal cases in which Communion may be publicly refused. The canon says, "Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion.

This seems general in nature and does not specifically state the situation of a remarried couple. I’m sure there is one that is more specific, but has anyone ever come across it?
I get this question from Catholic friends all the time, but I don’t have answer. And let’s face it, there are a multitude of grave sins, which would opt a lot of people out. Maybe Dan can help me on this one.

 

[Convert1]

16 months? ������ I understand why the need for the process but I am struggling with why it takes so long. No disrespect to the canon lawyer who posts here or any of them because I know this is a genuinely important matter that should be (and is) taken seriously, but it’s daunting to anyone who is trying to convert to be in this second tier. Nobody at my parish makes me feel unwelcome or lesser than but it’s just always on my heart that I can’t truly be Catholic until I prove how immature my decision from 8 years ago to marry a man who didn’t want to get married to me and who never wanted to have children and wouldn’t. How do you handle the waiting time for last 16 months? I’m afraid that due to my age I really can’t wait much longer before trying to have a child with my civilly married husband–he and I both want a child and I want to raise that child Catholic. It’s a tough situation to be in.

Thank you for your kind post. I was raised Protestant, married at 19 to escape an abusive home, only to marry someone abusive. I tried desperately to hang on because of children, but separated at 29 and finally divorced at 34. I had no idea I would ever convert to Catholicism until I met my love of my life, who is Catholic. In my 50s I am struggling just to try to become one with the Holy Catholic church. So, yes. It is hard. Actually one of the hardest things I have ever done. And I think that sometimes I just can’t take it anymore.
But my Faith in God always seems to sustain me. Every time. Every single moment I want to throw my hands up and walk away, I don’t. I always come back to one thought: waiting months to obtain my annulment beats the thought of NEVER being able to take the Eucharist in my lifetime.
You have to do what is right for you. Meet with your priest and have some intense discussion regarding your feelings and your situation. And most of all pray.
Praying every day has help me so much. Like you, my parish has been so kind and inclusive with me. I will be here for you. There have been plenty of folks here for me, so I owe this forum! God Bless you.

 

[AnchoredInHope]

Thank you for your kind post. I was raised Protestant, married at 19 to escape an abusive home, only to marry someone abusive. I tried desperately to hang on because of children, but separated at 29 and finally divorced at 34. I had no idea I would ever convert to Catholicism until I met my love of my life, who is Catholic. In my 50s I am struggling just to try to become one with the Holy Catholic church. So, yes. It is hard. Actually one of the hardest things I have ever done. And I think that sometimes I just can’t take it anymore.
But my Faith in God always seems to sustain me. Every time. Every single moment I want to throw my hands up and walk away, I don’t. I always come back to one thought: waiting months to obtain my annulment beats the thought of NEVER being able to take the Eucharist in my lifetime.
You have to do what is right for you. Meet with your priest and have some intense discussion regarding your feelings and your situation. And most of all pray.
Praying every day has help me so much. Like you, my parish has been so kind and inclusive with me. I will be here for you. There have been plenty of folks here for me, so I owe this forum! God Bless you.

Thank you for sharing your story with me as well as your wisdom And you are absolutely right about waiting vs NEVER receiving Eucharist in your lifetime if you walked away. Reminds me of the quote I read from St Josemaria Escriva…“When you approach the tabernacle remember that he has been waiting for you for twenty centuries.” It’s hard to wait but He has waited this long for me.

I have my first meeting with a Deacon tomorrow to discuss starting the process officially. Pray for me as I will praying for you to receive word soon!

 

[Convert1]

Good luck Anchored. Know my prayers are with you!

 

[dans0622]

I have been pondering this question for some time. Where in the Canon code does it specify the denial of communion because of being in an invalid marriage? …

Canon 915 of the Code of Canon Law indicates the principal cases in which Communion may be publicly refused. The canon says, …

This seems general in nature and does not specifically state the situation of a remarried couple. I’m sure there is one that is more specific, … And let’s face it, there are a multitude of grave sins, which would opt a lot of people out. Maybe Dan can help me on this one.

That canon is as specific as you can find in the Code of Canon Law. The are a few principles here.

First, whenever we say people who are “divorced and remarried” are not allowed to receive Holy Communion, we’re talking about Catholics (only Catholics can receive Communion in the first place).

Second, in order for Catholics to be in a marriage that is presumed to be valid, they have to marry in accord with canonical form (before a priest and two witnesses or else with a dispensation from this requirement).

Third, if a Catholic marries, divorces, and attempts to remarry, that “remarriage” will be “outside the Church” and not in accord with canonical form. It is not presumed to be a valid marriage. The persons involved are in apparent violation of the 6th Commandment (i.e., objectively a grave sin).

Fourth, nevertheless, that act of “remarriage” is, in itself, a public, legal act (i.e., their state of life is “manifest”).

Fifth, “obstinate persistence” is a quality a parish priest would look into. There are some Catholics who don’t even know about any of what I said above. So, if the priest discovers a parishioner in this situation, he would inform the person. There are ways to remedy the situation.

Here’s a more official discussion of the topic: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20000706_declaration_en.html

As for all the other sins out there–yes, that’s true. The issue of “manifest” sin is a bit hard to quantify, sometimes, but I’m fully in support of this canon (915) being consistently and appropriately applied across the board and not just in regard to the “divorced and remarried.”

Dan

 

[dans0622]

16 months? ������ I understand why the need for the process but I am struggling with why it takes so long. No disrespect to the canon lawyer who posts here or any of them because I know this is a genuinely important matter that should be (and is) taken seriously, …

As I have said before, there is no requirement for a process to take that long and, actually, it never should take that long. A process should be completed within one year, maximum. And even that length of time is quite “generous.”

“Seriousness” is not the reason for a 16 month process, it seems to me. All of us involved in these cases can be appropriately “serious” and still process cases a lot faster than that. Most of the time, the reason for that kind of delay is a lack of personnel in the Tribunal. Cases sit for months, awaiting the Judges decision (as someone else just mentioned in this thread).

Other than a lack of Judges who can get the work done (in fairness, most of the Judges are priests who have parish responsibilities, etc.), most delays come in the “investigation” phase of the trial: Parties or witnesses are not too rapid in responding to the tribunal’s requests for information.

I put an article up on my blog a while back about how long the process should take: Blogger

There have been some changes (at the direction of the Pope) since I wrote that but the basics are still the same.

Dan

 

[Guineviere]

Other than a lack of Judges who can get the work done (in fairness, most of the Judges are priests who have parish responsibilities, etc.), most delays come in the “investigation” phase of the trial: Parties or witnesses are not too rapid in responding to the tribunal’s requests for information.

I put an article up on my blog a while back about how long the process should take: anotherbrickinthelaw.blogspot.com/2014/10/how-long-must-annulment-take.html

Dan

Thank you for all of your helpful insight. In our case the hold up is that they have one judge that comes in one day a month and has a two-hour commute. The investigative phase took 10 months. The case has been waiting on the judge to make a decision since June 2015…7 months. Several years ago, mine went through the same tribunal and got two answers in 10 months; however, they were better staffed at the time.

 

[weaverbird]

We were told the same thing in November, our case was accepted in August 2014. We called back after December 8th and they still weren’t clear what they were going to be doing with existing cases. We were told we might be one of the first cases to skip the second judgement but they couldn’t commit to that. We were told to call back in January. The office was closed last week, so hopefully we will know something this week.

Let us know what you find out on the matter of the Second Instance being used at this time, or not. Im curious!

 

[Guineviere]

Update…

A letter came yesterday stating collection of evidence is complete, no further evidence will be accepted, and the case is entering final phases This is similar to the letter that came last June stating the case was published and there were xxx days to review it. Those days were up in early July so I’d have thought it would be further by now.

Judging by the time the time it’s taken to get to this point, I’m expecting at least 3 more months; but I’m not holding my breath. 17 months and counting…it’s very disappointing and frustrating. The published average is 12 months. All evidence was easily obtained and returned quickly, so I’d have expected it to be closer to the average time.

People stopped asking when the wedding is about 6 months ago.