Annulments/support group

[dans0622]

… When I received the letter from the Court of First Instance stating the affirmative decision, it also said that the decision would be sent to the Court of Second Instance for review.

A few weeks later, I received a letter from the Court of Second Instance asking me for any further observations that I wish to make. I have submitted these and on a specific date, the case will be put forward for hearing.

Does this mean an appeal has been lodged by the Respondent, my spouse, or is it just another means of describing the ratification process? Or as you mentioned, is it being submitted to an ordinary examination in second instance without an appeal?

If an appeal was lodged, should I have been informed? …

Hello,

Ok, this looks to be just the typical preliminary “stuff” that goes on before the second instance Court decides whether or not to ratify the first decision. The “hearing” is the Judges’ review of everything before they decide what to do.

So, at this point, you are still waiting to see if the Court will ratify or admit the case to an ordinary examination.

If there was an appeal, yes, you would have been informed.

If you want, you can look at this document, and go down to article 265, 1-2. That’s where you are in the process.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20050125_dignitas-connubii_en.html

Dan

 

[EvelynEVF]

Dan,

Please forgive me if I’ve asked this before and can’t find it, but my judge was not able to tell me, because nobody in my diocese has appealed to Rome in more than a decade. I know when the first verdict is sent out, both parties are told that they can do nothing and have an automatic appeal to the archdiocese, or within a certain time period (2 or three weeks) they can notify the local Tribunal that they wish to leapfrog over the archdiocese and go right to Rome for the second instance.

My specific question is, once that time period is over, and the case has been packed up and sent to the archdiocese, does either party have the right to scoop it out of the archdiocese and throw it to Rome, or is that a hard and fast deadline?

Thanks,
Evelyn

 

[dans0622]

…

My specific question is, once that time period is over, and the case has been packed up and sent to the archdiocese, does either party have the right to scoop it out of the archdiocese and throw it to Rome, or is that a hard and fast deadline? …

Hello,

The citation of the Respondent is the true beginning of a trial. Once a tribunal cites the Respondent, that Court has a certain stability and authority over the case (see canon 1512, Dignitas connubii art. 129). So, let’s say we have the following series of events:

–First instance decision published, along with clear notice of rights regarding appeal
–The time limit has passed without any appeal (or even an appeal to the 2nd Instance)
–The second instance Court receives the case and cites the Respondent
–The Respondent receives the citation
–A Party then appeals to the Rota

I have experience of this sort of thing happening. The Rota wrote to the second instance tribunal, having received the appeal. The second instance court, however, said everything was done appropriately. There was no appeal made during the standard time limit and the Respondent was already cited. The case was already pending before the second instance court and so that court should be allowed to complete the case (citing some relevant law to back this up, of course). The Rota did not bother to pursue the matter and the second instance court carried the case to a decision.

Of course, the Rota could decide to call the case to itself in this sort of circumstance but, in my opinion, that would be rare as long as it is clear that everyone *could *have appealed to the Rota, had time to appeal, but did not.

Since there is, strictly speaking, no “citation” if the second instance court ratifies the decision, there might be some gray area. But, I think we’d operate from the same principles: if everyone is informed of the right to appeal, has the time to do it, and doesn’t, the second instance Court–at the proper time–should take up the case and can finish what it started, even if there is no citation.

If an appeal to the Rota comes after the second instance court starts processing the case, it would always be wise for the second instance court to ask/wait for the direction of the Rota.

Dan

 

[EvelynEVF]

Thank you very much for such a thorough reply!

 

[MJJean]

My reasons have always revolved around creating/maintaining a loving, and peace-filled home atmosphere for the kids.

When the pregnancy happened, it was clearly a shotgun decision to get married civilly, in order to calm her down and get the ball rolling on residency so that my baby would not be in danger or have to leave the country (at the moment it didn’t occur to me that her being born here made her American, etc.)…my girlfriend/civil wife at the time of course was very nervous and freaking out for lack of a better expression, especially when I advocated what I wanted, and what my parents recommended, which was either adoption or keeping the baby and living separately. And so the pattern that ensued and really defined our relationship was: she feels bad, cries, gets emotionally depressed, and I come to the rescue and make promises that keep the peace at the time, getting us through the rough patch. This essentially was what things were like during the first year of our civil marriage and so, realizing that we were living in sin (we were unable to remain chaste in that type of a setting), the only real solution I saw was a church wedding (for the grace needed, so I reasoned, to grow in our faith, which was my vocation as a husband)…obviously, closing in on 40 now and after 16 years of this, I now know better. I knew deep down that this day would come…I hoped and prayed that by doing ‘the right thing’ I would get a pass, that somehow things would be OK. We did a retrouvaille retreat last spring…it was at that point that I realized where I was in all of this. In other words, the retreat that oftentimes saves marriages sort of had the opposite affect on me, because it made me look in the mirror.

In any event, I might mention that it’s not like things are miserable, all the time…for that reason, we’ve lasted all this time. We are bringing up the kids Catholic, have them in Catholic school, pray as a family (not enough), are practicing Catholics, etc. By outward appearances, a lot of people actually admire us since we are involved in the local pro-life movement. So there are many beautiful things that have come out of this…beautiful on one hand and, I feel, perhaps hypocritical on the other, since I’ve always striven to live a life of outward virtue and cultivate it around me.

If you truly believe your marriage cannot be saved and was not validly entered into, then go speak to your priest and see what your options are. Just make sure you are certain of the realities of divorce before you do anything irrevocable.

 

[Tax_Collector14]

This is precisely what I am up against…there is no right or wrong answer, it seems. If I stay, I hurt myself. If I go through with this, I could be happier in the long run, but will do clear damage to those I love…at this point, I think we will both seek therapy. Thanks again for listening, and please pray for us, rest assured I unite all of my sufferings present and future with those of Christ for the salvation of souls, God’s holy will be done.

 

[Nic1099]

Hello,

Ok, this looks to be just the typical preliminary “stuff” that goes on before the second instance Court decides whether or not to ratify the first decision. The “hearing” is the Judges’ review of everything before they decide what to do.

So, at this point, you are still waiting to see if the Court will ratify or admit the case to an ordinary examination.

If there was an appeal, yes, you would have been informed.

If you want, you can look at this document, and go down to article 265, 1-2. That’s where you are in the process.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20050125_dignitas-connubii_en.html

Dan

Hi Dan

Thanks very much for your very informative replies. I had a look at your website and have bookmarked it.

This is very assuring as when the letter read that the case would be put forward for another hearing, I presumed that meant a new trial as the wording differed from the Court of First Instance which stated that it was being sent for review.

May I ask also, that even if there is a second affirmative decision, can my spouse still appeal to the Roman Rota and if so, what are the grounds? Can he simply disagree with the decision or is more required, for example, procedural irregularities and/or denied the right of defence?

There is a lot of conflicting information on the Internet.

Regards
Nic

 

[Nic1099]

I am not as far along in the process as you are, but I was told that the Court of First Instance would render a decision and then the case would be sent to a Court of Second Instance and be reviewed and a decision rendered by them. I was also told that I would have opportunity to add any information I thought relevant to the case and that I would be informed by each Tribunal when my case was advanced.

Considering all that, I think (but don’t know) that the letters you received are part of the normal process. I believe they do notify you if there has been an appeal.

Have you thought of calling the Tribunal and simply asking? For general information, at least here, the person answering the phone can help. For specifics you need to talk to the person assigned your case. I’d try calling and ask if the letter means there has been an appeal or if it is just the normal process moving along. If the person answering the phone cannot or will not answer questions, contact whoever is handling the case. Have your case number and the name of the person assigned your case ready when you call.

When I had problems with witness responses and my case was stalled I called the Tribunal and found the staff very kind and helpful. Don’t be shy about calling to ask questions. Of course, you also have the option of asking your priest or whoever acted as Procurator-Advocate.

Thanks MJJean for your response.

Dan and yourself have been extremely helpful. Yes, I have at times called the Tribunal but I like to keep it to a minimum as I appreciate they are extremely busy. I have to add that I have found all the staff at the Tribunal very helpful and considerate.

It would appear that the letter I received from the Court of Second Instance is standard issue and no appeal has been made.

I wish you the very best!

 

[dans0622]

… This is very assuring as when the letter read that the case would be put forward for another hearing, I presumed that meant a new trial as the wording differed from the Court of First Instance which stated that it was being sent for review.

May I ask also, that even if there is a second affirmative decision, can my spouse still appeal to the Roman Rota and if so, what are the grounds? Can he simply disagree with the decision or is more required, for example, procedural irregularities and/or denied the right of defence?

There is a lot of conflicting information on the Internet. …

Hello,

Well, I have to say that I can’t be entirely sure what is going on–what I have said is what seems to be happening, as far as I can tell. I’m about 95% sure.

Can a person appeal after a conforming decision? Technically, no. An appeal is impossible. But, a person can “challenge” the sentence. Practically, that means pretty much the same thing as an appeal. Anyway…, this “challenge” can be attempted but the higher court will entertain the appeal only if there is new, significant evidence. If it is only a disagreement with the decision, that’s not good enough.

There is also the possibility of a complaint of nullity against the sentence. This is different from an appeal/challenge. An appeal/challenge is based on the merits of the case. A complaint of nullity is based on procedure and that’s what you are talking about in the second part of your question. Basically, it is possible to raise a complaint of nullity at any time. That doesn’t mean the sentences will be declared null whenever somebody says it should be, but it does mean that a Court better be sure to follow proper procedure all the time and, as you suggest, always respect and protect the Parties’ right of defense.

As far as information on the internet–yes, it’s a mixed bag. If you can follow and understand the document I linked to earlier, read it over…especially articles 265-294.

Dan

 

[Nic1099]

Hello,

Well, I have to say that I can’t be entirely sure what is going on–what I have said is what seems to be happening, as far as I can tell. I’m about 95% sure.

Can a person appeal after a conforming decision? Technically, no. An appeal is impossible. But, a person can “challenge” the sentence. Practically, that means pretty much the same thing as an appeal. Anyway…, this “challenge” can be attempted but the higher court will entertain the appeal only if there is new, significant evidence. If it is only a disagreement with the decision, that’s not good enough.

There is also the possibility of a complaint of nullity against the sentence. This is different from an appeal/challenge. An appeal/challenge is based on the merits of the case. A complaint of nullity is based on procedure and that’s what you are talking about in the second part of your question. Basically, it is possible to raise a complaint of nullity at any time. That doesn’t mean the sentences will be declared null whenever somebody says it should be, but it does mean that a Court better be sure to follow proper procedure all the time and, as you suggest, always respect and protect the Parties’ right of defense.

As far as information on the internet–yes, it’s a mixed bag. If you can follow and understand the document I linked to earlier, read it over…especially articles 265-294.

Dan

Thanks again Dan for your reply.

To date, I have received nothing indicating that an appeal has been made.

I find this odd as my spouse strenuously objected to the granting of a Decree of Nullity when he was interviewed by the Tribunal. Even more strange considering he left me, he initiated divorce proceedings and has remarried civilly. He also waivered his right to view the evidence during the Publication of the Acts. He has also renounced the Church and is now an atheist.

It seems unusual to me that if he was so opposed to the Decree of Nullity, that he hasn’t appealed the Court of First Instance decision and as they say ‘fought it all the way’.

Thanks to everyone that responded. I will let you know how it goes!

 

[MJJean]

Thanks again Dan for your reply.

To date, I have received nothing indicating that an appeal has been made.

I find this odd as my spouse strenuously objected to the granting of a Decree of Nullity when he was interviewed by the Tribunal. Even more strange considering he left me, he initiated divorce proceedings and has remarried civilly. He also waivered his right to view the evidence during the Publication of the Acts. He has also renounced the Church and is now an atheist.

It seems unusual to me that if he was so opposed to the Decree of Nullity, that he hasn’t appealed the Court of First Instance decision and as they say ‘fought it all the way’.

Thanks to everyone that responded. I will let you know how it goes!

Do you have children? Sometimes parents fight an annulment believing the children will be illegitimate if the marriage is declared null. This is not the case, but so many believe it to be so.

If there are children and you may date or remarry should the marriage be declared null he might be trying to stop that from happening by delaying or stopping the annulment process.

Could also be just plain, old fashioned, spite. Whatever it is, I do hope the Tribunals are aware that he has remarried. I mean, if a man truly believed his former marriage valid would he be the one who left, filed, and remarried?

I wish you all the best!

 

[Nic1099]

Do you have children? Sometimes parents fight an annulment believing the children will be illegitimate if the marriage is declared null. This is not the case, but so many believe it to be so.

If there are children and you may date or remarry should the marriage be declared null he might be trying to stop that from happening by delaying or stopping the annulment process.

Could also be just plain, old fashioned, spite. Whatever it is, I do hope the Tribunals are aware that he has remarried. I mean, if a man truly believed his former marriage valid would he be the one who left, filed, and remarried?

I wish you all the best!

Hi MJJean

Yes we have one son but he is 23 years old and my spouse knows that a Declaration of Nullity would not render him illegitimate, so as I’ve always assumed, this would appear to be plain old fashioned spite. I discussed the situation with my son prior to petitioning the Tribunal. Thankfully, he was very supportive.

Thank you for your support!

 

[MJJean]

Hi MJJean

Yes we have one son but he is 23 years old and my spouse knows that a Declaration of Nullity would not render him illegitimate, so as I’ve always assumed, this would appear to be plain old fashioned spite. I discussed the situation with my son prior to petitioning the Tribunal. Thankfully, he was very supportive.

Thank you for your support!

You’re very welcome. If we all support each other, add in some prayers, we may make it through the annulment process sane!

My daughters from the previous marriage are 20 and 15. My 20 year old has chosen to be a Baptist. My 15 year old is being baptized Catholic in April on Holy Saturday.They were also very supportive when I spoke to them about annulment of my marriage to their father. My 15 year old stalks the mailbox after school just waiting on word from the Tribunal. We were hoping for a minor miracle and to be done before her Confirmation so that we could be Confirmed together as a family. My husband left the Church just before Confirmation, so it would be all 3 of us. They are doing Confirmation in June, I believe on Pentecost, but I probably won’t have the decree by then. At least I can be there to support my husband and daughter, though.

 

[holyrood]

My divorce was final almost 28 months ago. It’s on my list to call the church and ask for an appointment to start the annulment process. I believe I will receive one on about three different grounds. I’m kind of dreading, though, that I’ve heard it can take years.

Do any annulments go fairly quickly? I answered the questions two years ago, but need to go through again and update some of them.

 

[EvelynEVF]

How fast it goes depends on the speed of your witnesses, the caseload of your tribunal, the cooperation of both parties, etc. I’ve heard of people being done in 18mo. I’m at two months shy of 4 years, but might get a verdict before we cross that line.

 

[holyrood]

Thank you. I forgot I’ll need witnesses. I’m not sure what to do about that, since many of the witnesses to the beginning of my marriage are my alcoholic family, who have a vested interest in seeing me as the problem in the marriage. (It absolves them of their own behavior to believe I just went nuts and started ditching ‘all the people who love me the most.’)

However, I came back to the thread to say: I made the call to set up an appointment with my priest to start the process. I have meant to do it for two years, and particularly since the beginning of this year. I have no idea why I’ve put it off, or why I found it so hard. Even today, I had to finally just kick myself in the rear and say GO DO IT!!

Anyone else experience this? I have no doubt I will be granted an annulment based on several grounds. I’m not sure why it’s been so hard to make this call.

 

[China123]

Just wanted to stop by and update. After I read the response on the thread about calling the diocesan office my pastor called the very same day. We set up an appointment and now am in the process of filling out everything. He told me they were lack of form petitions and so we have the easier of the roads. I am so relieved it is in the works with this process.

Funny how I had been struggeling for MANY months to even get a phone call and a day or 2 after I post I get a phone call The Lord really does have His own timeline. Thank you very much for your reply.

 

[Learning4me]

I live in common-law with a man who 4 years ago applied for an annulment. Only last week did he get a letter saying “in the next few weeks” they will get in touch with him to see if the witnesses are still willing to be witness.

I know this process has stressed my partner out and I am (to be honest) annoyed how a tribunal can make a person wait sooooooo long. I have a very negative attitude toward this process, I admit. I was baptized Catholic - never was confirmed.

Why does this process take so long?? I find it to be ridiculous how they can do this to people. They make them wait for years - - then how credible are the witnesses??? You can’t remember details from a decade ago.

I guess I’m venting as I have no one in my life I can vent to about this.

Thanks for listening.

 

[Learning4me]

For those of you who have gone through this… after the witnesses are spoken to how long after before you are interviewed - - - and how long after that before you get the decision?

 

[EvelynEVF]

Learning4me, until my case went off the rails, it was looking like 18mo. Initially after turning in my questionnaire, my petition was accepted within a month, witnesses were identified and cited within a few weeks after that, and the whole case was sent to a psych expert for comment within a couple weeks of the last witness testimony being sent in. It wasn’t fast, but every month or two I had some notification of something in the mail, so there was steady progress.