Annulments/support group

[mariposaholly]

I finally got my decision from the court of second instance: not approved. The case will be reopened. Anyone know how long this takes?

I’m not Catholic, and this whole process is overwhelming. I’m thinking about just getting married in my church and let this simmer on the side.

Any help?

 

[dans0622]

I finally got my decision from the court of second instance: not approved. The case will be reopened. Anyone know how long this takes?

I’m not Catholic, and this whole process is overwhelming. I’m thinking about just getting married in my church and let this simmer on the side.

Any help?

Hello,

Your best bet is to call your local tribunal and ask how long it usually takes. It can vary a lot from one place to the next so no outsider can really give even an educated guess.

Dan

 

[His_helpmeet]

I met with my pastor today to start the process. He’s telling me a year, but some are through in our diocese in less than that. The deacon told me they said a year, but he thinks most take longer than that.

I had all the forms filled out already, just have to find them on my old computer.

The Church’s goal is to handle the first instance (i.e. initial tribunal’s decision) within one year and the second instance within 6 months. However, this is a general guideline, not an absolute deadline. Depending on the nature of the case it can take more or less time. For example, if it’s something very simple that can be proven on paper (e.g. getting married outside the Church without a dispensation if you’re Catholic, being too closely related, already being married, etc.) it can take only a few weeks. More nebulous things that deal with knowledge and attitudes usually take several months. If the evidence given by witnesses, the petitioner, and the respondent is inconsistent it may take even longer. It’s really dependent on the individual nature of the case. That’s why they give you a general guideline, not an “absolute deadline”.

 

[Nic1099]

I finally got my decision from the court of second instance: not approved. The case will be reopened. Anyone know how long this takes?

I’m not Catholic, and this whole process is overwhelming. I’m thinking about just getting married in my church and let this simmer on the side.

Any help?

Hi Mariposaholly

I’m very sorry to hear that the Court of Second Instance did not uphold the affirmative decision of the First Instance Tribunal. Unfortunately, I have no idea how long the case being reopened will take. I take it that it is going to the Roman Rota for a final decision?

In general though, (open to everyone) what circumstances have to prevail in order for two courts to come to differing conclusions based on the same evidence? My case went forward for hearing in the Court of Second Instance in early February and to date, I haven’t heard anything.

I sincerely hope Mariposaholly that you find peace.

Nic

 

[EvelynEVF]

I don’t know how long these things take in Ireland, but I’ve been told that the usual time for a case to get through the Rota, which I think would be the next stop for yours, is 2-5 years.

 

[dans0622]

I don’t know how long these things take in Ireland, but I’ve been told that the usual time for a case to get through the Rota, which I think would be the next stop for yours, is 2-5 years.

Hello,

No, according to my understanding of the scenario, what has happened here is that the second instance tribunal has not ratified the first instance affirmative decision. The second instance court has opened the case up to an ordinary examination. This could be for a reason as straightforward as wanting to change the grounds (sometimes one Court will use grounds that the second Court just can’t accept, but can give a conforming sentence on other grounds) to a reason as complicated as wanting new testimony from everyone involved and a new psychological Expert’s report, etc. The former can be done without much delay at all. The latter, obviously, would take a longer amount of time.

Whatever the case, the second instance court is still going to render a decision. Only if it is negative would the case possibly go to the Rota.

Dan

 

[sadpanda2]

Hello,

No, according to my understanding of the scenario, what has happened here is that the second instance tribunal has not ratified the first instance affirmative decision. The second instance court has opened the case up to an ordinary examination. This could be for a reason as straightforward as wanting to change the grounds (sometimes one Court will use grounds that the second Court just can’t accept, but can give a conforming sentence on other grounds) to a reason as complicated as wanting new testimony from everyone involved and a new psychological Expert’s report, etc. The former can be done without much delay at all. The latter, obviously, would take a longer amount of time.

Whatever the case, the second instance court is still going to render a decision. Only if it is negative would the case possibly go to the Rota.

Dan

Hello Dan,

Please forgive my ignorance, but what does ratification consist of? A simple review of the documents and confirmation that they came to the correct conclusion?

And then if the decision is not ratified, the second court will reopen – but not transfer – the case and do as much as they feel necessary in order to reach a sentence?

 

[dans0622]

… what does ratification consist of? A simple review of the documents and confirmation that they came to the correct conclusion?

And then if the decision is not ratified, the second court will reopen – but not transfer – the case and do as much as they feel necessary in order to reach a sentence?

Hello,

Yes and yes. I could give more details and quibble with some vocabulary but I don’t think that’s needed. You’ve got the right idea.

Dan

 

[Nic1099]

Hello,

No, according to my understanding of the scenario, what has happened here is that the second instance tribunal has not ratified the first instance affirmative decision. The second instance court has opened the case up to an ordinary examination. This could be for a reason as straightforward as wanting to change the grounds (sometimes one Court will use grounds that the second Court just can’t accept, but can give a conforming sentence on other grounds) to a reason as complicated as wanting new testimony from everyone involved and a new psychological Expert’s report, etc. The former can be done without much delay at all. The latter, obviously, would take a longer amount of time.

Whatever the case, the second instance court is still going to render a decision. Only if it is negative would the case possibly go to the Rota.

Dan

Hi Dan

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It is very informative and appreciated! I am awaiting the decision of the Court of Second Instance. From what I gather above, if my case is to be reopened and sent for an ordinary examination that I would be informed of this? I had presumed that I would only hear once a final decision had been reached, whether by ratification or new trial.

Regards
Nic

 

[EvelynEVF]

Hello,

No, according to my understanding of the scenario, what has happened here is that the second instance tribunal has not ratified the first instance affirmative decision.

I stand corrected. I didn’t realize the distinction between refusing to ratify the lower court’s decision and actually issuing a verdict that contradicted it.

Here’s hoping it’s a quicker process than going to Rome!

 

[dans0622]

… From what I gather above, if my case is to be reopened and sent for an ordinary examination that I would be informed of this? I had presumed that I would only hear once a final decision had been reached, whether by ratification or new trial. …

Hello,

Yes, you should be informed. If, for some reason, you were not informed of that particular action, you’d certainly be told of subsequent steps that reflect the first instance process (formulation of grounds, publication of acts, conclusion).

Ratification is a final decision. Opening the case to an ordinary examination (a “new trial”) is not. It’s only the first step in a new process.

Dan

 

[lovetohope]

Interestingly, my case is in a similar situation now. I just found out today that the second court is proposing a different ground than the one the first court proposed/decided upon. I am feeling very frustrated having waited 13 months for the first decision (my case was mishandled), and now almost another year (in May) since it was sent to the second court. I’m told it could be another six months before I hear anything. I just want to move on from this… enough is enough already. Two years and counting and another half of one potentially! How is this pastoral???

 

[Nic1099]

Interestingly, my case is in a similar situation now. I just found out today that the second court is proposing a different ground than the one the first court proposed/decided upon. I am feeling very frustrated having waited 13 months for the first decision (my case was mishandled), and now almost another year (in May) since it was sent to the second court. I’m told it could be another six months before I hear anything. I just want to move on from this… enough is enough already. Two years and counting and another half of one potentially! How is this pastoral???

Hi lovetohope

I hear and perfectly understand your frustration. The waiting is the hardest part. It is probably better though that a thorough investigation ensues rather than a complaint of nullity later on.

I will pray for you.

Nic

 

[MJJean]

Interestingly, my case is in a similar situation now. I just found out today that the second court is proposing a different ground than the one the first court proposed/decided upon. I am feeling very frustrated having waited 13 months for the first decision (my case was mishandled), and now almost another year (in May) since it was sent to the second court. I’m told it could be another six months before I hear anything. I just want to move on from this… enough is enough already. Two years and counting and another half of one potentially! How is this pastoral???

Wow, now I’m nervous. My case is in line to be heard by the first court. It’s been 10 months since I applied. Now I’m wondering how common it is to have the two courts disagree on grounds and even further delay cases.

Lovetohope, I am so sorry for your delay and frustrations. I know how you feel as much as I can after only 10 months. I can imagine how difficult closing up on two years must be.

With so many coming back to the Church or converting we really need more trained Tribunal staff to reduce the wait while still making sure their judgments are properly reached.

 

[Steve_P]

I am in awe regarding some of the wait times and the seemingly intricate processes one needs to navigate on this journey I am embarking on. The perseverance being displayed in many of the post I have seen here is inspirational. Thank you! That being said, I would like to ask the group if my paperwork, especially my biography, will be provided to my former spouse when I submit my case?

 

[Batfink]

I am in awe regarding some of the wait times and the seemingly intricate processes one needs to navigate on this journey I am embarking on. The perseverance being displayed in many of the post I have seen here is inspirational. Thank you! That being said, I would like to ask the group if my paperwork, especially my biography, will be provided to my former spouse when I submit my case?

Both petitoner and respondent (i.e. you and your former spouse) have the right to review all the information submitted. Many people choose not to, as it would mean travelling down to the Tribunal office another time to read the paperwork. So she won’t be sent a copy of your evidence, but she will have the right to read it if she wants.

 

[prege33]

Hi Everyone-- This thread is very informative. I have searched around in the forum and can’t seem to find another situation like mine… but I am new and may have missed it.

I have been married for almost 12 years and my husband and I live together with our 2 children. We have been struggling for years, have been in Catholic therapy, have separated and got back together, contemplated divorce multiple times, etc.

My question is:: What if I know for certain (as certain as a person can be anyway) that my marriage would be declared invalid??? What does a person do then? I am fairly certain, because of the circumstances surrounding our early relationship and wedding/marriage, that we would be granted an annulment. Is my marriage invalid now? I think the answer is yes. What do people do if they realize they are currently in an invalid marriage? I’ve never heard of it looked at that way before.

This is weighing very heavy on my heart these days. I wonder if we are receiving any graces at all to continue this fight…? Has anyone been in this situation before-- still married and realizing that their marriage is most likely invalid…

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks so much!

 

[His_helpmeet]

Hi Everyone-- This thread is very informative. I have searched around in the forum and can’t seem to find another situation like mine… but I am new and may have missed it.

I have been married for almost 12 years and my husband and I live together with our 2 children. We have been struggling for years, have been in Catholic therapy, have separated and got back together, contemplated divorce multiple times, etc.

My question is:: What if I know for certain (as certain as a person can be anyway) that my marriage would be declared invalid??? What does a person do then? I am fairly certain, because of the circumstances surrounding our early relationship and wedding/marriage, that we would be granted an annulment. Is my marriage invalid now? I think the answer is yes. What do people do if they realize they are currently in an invalid marriage? I’ve never heard of it looked at that way before.

This is weighing very heavy on my heart these days. I wonder if we are receiving any graces at all to continue this fight…? Has anyone been in this situation before-- still married and realizing that their marriage is most likely invalid…

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks so much!

Unless the marriage can be proven “on paper” to be invalid (for example, you’re too closely related, one of you was previously married without a declaration of nullity, you were underage, or you were Catholic and married outside the Church without a dispensation) marriages are always presumed valid until proven otherwise. Think of it as similar to the court system in this respect. Just as a person is innocent until proven guilty, so marriage is valid until proven otherwise.

 

[prege33]

Unless the marriage can be proven “on paper” to be invalid (for example, you’re too closely related, one of you was previously married without a declaration of nullity, you were underage, or you were Catholic and married outside the Church without a dispensation) marriages are always presumed valid until proven otherwise. Think of it as similar to the court system in this respect. Just as a person is innocent until proven guilty, so marriage is valid until proven otherwise.

Thanks so much for your kind answer. I am always afraid to post in forums because people can be so nasty. I completely understand and that analogy is perfect… innocent until proven guilty. And although we do not fit one of those above criteria exactly- I know that our circumstances will most likely result in an annulment. (If we chose to divorce-- which I really don’t want to do.)

Soooo… my next question is… Let’s say we, unfortunately, do divorce and are granted an annulment. That makes our marriage invalid from day one, correct? So- even though I am sitting here assuming my marriage is valid right now-- if we are granted an annulment in the future-- that would mean that right now in 2014 my marriage wasn’t valid… and the presumption of validity was incorrect? Yes? No? Like in innocent until proven guilty… A man who killed someone is innocent until a court proves otherwise. BUT-- he was really a murderer all along… it just hadn’t been proven until he was convicted.

I’m not trying to be difficult… just trying to understand fully. Thanks again!

 

[MJJean]

Thanks so much for your kind answer. I am always afraid to post in forums because people can be so nasty. I completely understand and that analogy is perfect… innocent until proven guilty. And although we do not fit one of those above criteria exactly- I know that our circumstances will most likely result in an annulment. (If we chose to divorce-- which I really don’t want to do.)

Soooo… my next question is… Let’s say we, unfortunately, do divorce and are granted an annulment. That makes our marriage invalid from day one, correct? So- even though I am sitting here assuming my marriage is valid right now-- if we are granted an annulment in the future-- that would mean that right now in 2014 my marriage wasn’t valid… and the presumption of validity was incorrect? Yes? No? Like in innocent until proven guilty… A man who killed someone is innocent until a court proves otherwise. BUT-- he was really a murderer all along… it just hadn’t been proven until he was convicted.

I’m not trying to be difficult… just trying to understand fully. Thanks again!

Yes, if you were to divorce and have the marriage proven invalid it would mean the marriage was invalid all along.

I am in an invalid marriage. I was married before AND my husband was baptized catholic and did not marry in the Church or receive dispensation. So, there is no doubt our 11 year old marriage is invalid. We’re taking steps to have our marriage made valid by getting my previous marriage annulled and having our marriage convalidated.

If I may ask, why do you believe your marriage to be invalid? If it’s something like one of you were married before or one of you was catholic and did not marry in the Church or with dispensation than maybe consider speaking to your pastor about what you need to do to have a convalidation to correct the problem.