Annulments/support group

[EvelynEVF]

Oh, my The first thing that comes to mind is, since you have two decrees, can you get married in the Church ASAP? Once you are married, the Rota won’t accept an appeal.

 

[dans0622]

… I recently heard through a mutual acquaintance that the respondent intends to launch an appeal to the Roman Rota. I acknowledge … that this scenario is highly unlikely, however I’d like to know what would constitute ‘new and serious proofs’ if this was to proceed?
…
Is this Tribunal the Court of Second Instance or the Roman Rota?

Is there a period of time after the Decree has been issued that the respondent has to initiate the appeal to Rome or can they do so whenever the evidence becomes available and/or feel like it?

If this evidence was available, why wasn’t it submitted during the initial process?

Lastly, if it does go to Rome, I’m concerned at the high percentage of decisions that the Rota overturns. Why is this so? Why is there such a high discrepancy between how Tribunals conduct Nullity investigations and the Rota?

…

Hello,

Technically, there is no “appeal” in this scenario. There can be a complaint of nullity or a challenging of the sentence/petition for a new hearing of the case. The difference in terminology matters since an appeal is quite easy to initiate and be accepted but a complaint of nullity and challenge of the sentence are not.

Anyway, I have seen only a couple cases where such a challenge has been admitted. In one case, the lower tribunals did not consider all the facts which were actually present in the Acts. So, it wasn’t so much that the person presented “new” proofs but it was apparent to the higher tribunal that the lower courts did not pay attention to the evidence. In the other case, it was more a matter of legal principles than new evidence. The tribunals involved (which, actually, included the Roman Rota) were deemed to have been lacking in their understanding of the law. So, the case was reintroduced (at the Rota, again).

I hesitate to hazard a guess as to what the evidence might look like in your possible case. It all depends…

The tribunal would be the Rota.

The person can initiate this challenge at any time and then must follow up within one month. As noted by “EvelynEVF”, though, the Rota will not accept this challenge if the other party has already celebrated a marriage.

Why wasn’t the evidence submitted already? That’s a good question and the other Party would have to have a good answer.

I don’t think you should be concerned about statistics since the statistics you have heard about or seen do not involve cases that have already had two conforming decisions. What we are talking about here is a rare situation and I’m sure there are no statistics on it. As far as your specific question–recent statistics are closer to the 50-50 range on affirmative/negative decisions from the Rota. So, there is not a big discrepancy.

You might also wish to make sure the other party knows that if he tries to pursue this challenge and fails to have it accepted at the Rota, he may well be made to pay for the process.

Dan

 

[Rae8]

I am starting this new Annulments/support group for Catholics who are appyling for a Catholic annulment. I am using the word Annulments so people can easily find this topic.
There are several of us who have applied and gotten our nullity of marriage. Some are still waiting for an answer from their Catholic Tribunal Office.
We don’t know everything about the nullity of marriage but we do know how to answer some questions and be very supportive of your questions and situations.

I want to be helpful to others and this is why I have started this thread. LaLucia

Thank you for this thread! Please tell me after the judge receives all documents for the file, after the 10 day review period, how long does it take after that?

 

[Nic1099]

Thanks EvelynEVF and Dan

Your response is very much appreciated. I do recognise that this is a highly improbable scenario, however please forgive me for my ‘paranoia’. Last year I underwent two life-saving operations for which both consultants informed me that the odds for these being necessary were a percentage of .002%. This highly unlikely scenario occurred twice so you’ll have to forgive me for my high requirement of almost 100% certainty.

As you can imagine, I have the hotel booked and an appointment with the civil registrar all for next year. I also have family coming from America so I’d prefer to keep the date as is, however, is it possible for me to get married in the Church with our two witnesses asap and just get married civilly next year as planned with the reception following? I did read that a couple must be wed civilly before the Church will marry them. Is this true or it it just preferred? Are there any impediments in Canon Law to prevent this? In Ireland, a Catholic priest can also perform the civil marriage. Perhaps our priests are just used to performing the civil alongside the sacramental marriage and may not realise that they can be done separately?

If I can do this, I’ll be getting married in the eyes of the Church next week! The sacramental marriage is utmost in my priorities, the civil can wait.

Thanks Dan for the update on the statistics regarding Rotal decisions. As I’ve mentioned before, there is a lot of conflicting information on the Internet. I have a copy of DIGNITAS CONNUBII on my computer and it is very informative. I did observe that if a petitioner receives two conforming negative decisions, that no further appeal/challenging the sentence is possible to Rome whereas a respondent has the opportunity (albeit quite small) to challenge two conforming affirmative decisions to Rome. Why is this so and do you believe that it gives the respondent a slightly unfair advantage over the petitioner?

Thanks
Nic

 

[dans0622]

…is it possible for me to get married in the Church with our two witnesses asap and just get married civilly next year as planned with the reception following? I did read that a couple must be wed civilly before the Church will marry them. Is this true or it it just preferred? Are there any impediments in Canon Law to prevent this? …

I did observe that if a petitioner receives two conforming negative decisions, that no further appeal/challenging the sentence is possible to Rome … Why is this so and do you believe that it gives the respondent a slightly unfair advantage over the petitioner? …

Hello,

Theoretically, it is possible to do that but you’d need to show it is “necessary” and also have the permission of the “local ordinary” (bishop/vicar general, usually). That’s in canon 1071.1.2. Obviously, it all depends on what the local pastor is willing to do. You’d be in a strange place, since you couldn’t present yourself to the civil authorities as a married person.

I’m not sure if this scenario is equivalent to what is called a “secret marriage” since you aren’t really trying to do anything secretly… If it’s a secret marriage, you also have to abide by cc. 1130-1133. I have to think about this more and get some advice from people smarter than I.

Regarding your last comment: where is that stated? It doesn’t sound familiar to me…

Dan

 

[Nic1099]

Hello,

Theoretically, it is possible to do that but you’d need to show it is “necessary” and also have the permission of the “local ordinary” (bishop/vicar general, usually). That’s in canon 1071.1.2. Obviously, it all depends on what the local pastor is willing to do. You’d be in a strange place, since you couldn’t present yourself to the civil authorities as a married person.

I’m not sure if this scenario is equivalent to what is called a “secret marriage” since you aren’t really trying to do anything secretly… If it’s a secret marriage, you also have to abide by cc. 1130-1133. I have to think about this more and get some advice from people smarter than I.

Regarding your last comment: where is that stated? It doesn’t sound familiar to me…

Dan

Thanks again Dan.

My situation seems to be becoming more intriguing by the day! I sincerely hope that I do not have to resort to measures such as a ‘secret marriage’ but am open to all possibilities.

I misread the following document on the website: madisondiocese.org/DioceseofMadison/Tribunal/MarriageNullityQuestionsAnswers.aspx where it states at Option 1: Appeal of the Sentence: “If the appellate tribunal upholds the negative sentence, no further appeal is possible.”

I incorrectly assumed that this also translated into no challenging of the sentence or complaint of nullity. My apologies.

Out of curiosity, is there a difference in the Nullity process now than what was observed under the 1917 Code? I found a copy of the 1917 Code but it is in Latin. I’m currently trying to translate it in Google (rather tiresome!) but it is difficult to locate exactly what I am searching for.

Regards
Nic

 

[dans0622]

…
Out of curiosity, is there a difference in the Nullity process now than what was observed under the 1917 Code? I found a copy of the 1917 Code but it is in Latin. I’m currently trying to translate it in Google (rather tiresome!) but it is difficult to locate exactly what I am searching for. …

Holy cow. Yeah, Google is not going to work. You would benefit more by finding the 1930’s era document called *Provida mater ecclesia *which was the forerunner of Dignitas connubii. It was basically the same as it is now, on this particular topic (two conforming decisions). It was different in other matters.

Dan

 

[EvelynEVF]

Would your long distance guests be irreparably offended if you were both civilly and canonically married ASAP and then had a nice big reception on your previously planned date? Perhaps at least some of those who would be offended would understand if you explained the situation at some level.

Also, really, if this is about being able to get married versus having to postpone indefinitely? Golly jeepers. Who really cares about what anybody else thinks?!

 

[joanofarc2008]

I am sorry that your attempted spouse from before has not found peace with this. Prayers.

 

[Nic1099]

Would your long distance guests be irreparably offended if you were both civilly and canonically married ASAP and then had a nice big reception on your previously planned date? Perhaps at least some of those who would be offended would understand if you explained the situation at some level.

Also, really, if this is about being able to get married versus having to postpone indefinitely? Golly jeepers. Who really cares about what anybody else thinks?!

Hi EvelynEVF

I do understand what you are saying, however I could only get an appointment with the civil registrar for April 2015 in order to provide the minimum three months required notice. I have no idea why this is? Are there a mass of people getting married in Ireland currently that has created such a backlog? If I could get an appointment earlier and marry sooner I would. I’ve called the Registrar but they won’t budge. Either the groom or I would have to be terminally ill or some other grave situation in order for this request to be accepted. Unfortunately, a hostile respondent threatening to go to Roman Rota doesn’t count.

I personally just wanted a quiet ceremony with our two witnesses and then home but my husband-to-be wants the big wedding. The grooms are becoming the ‘bridezillas’ here!

 

[EvelynEVF]

Thanks for explaining that. In the US, the wait period is just a couple of days, so if there are difficulties with details, it is not terribly uncommon for the bride and groom to quietly elope and then have a reception later to appease the family-zilla and celebrate with friends.

I’m sorry that things are so difficult and complicated

 

[Nic1099]

I am sorry that your attempted spouse from before has not found peace with this. Prayers.

Thanks joanofarc2008.

Thanks for explaining that. In the US, the wait period is just a couple of days, so if there are difficulties with details, it is not terribly uncommon for the bride and groom to quietly elope and then have a reception later to appease the family-zilla and celebrate with friends.

I’m sorry that things are so difficult and complicated

Thanks EvelynEVF

Maybe on the positive side, this will virtually eliminate Decrees of Nullity being granted in Ireland due to defective consent where an unplanned pregnancy has occurred, as nobody will be able to get married until the child can talk. No more ‘shotgun’ weddings in Ireland it would seem!

 

[RetreatFan]

I’m so sorry if this is the wrong place for this question but it seems like the really knowledgeable people regarding annulments are here and I really need some help discerning what I need to do. I am at a crossroads regarding my life and how I want/should live it as a converted/returning catholic and it’s tearing me apart inside. Let me give you some background:

I returned to the Church 2 1/2 years ago after 30+ years of denying the faith. I was never very religious as a child and at around 15 years old I threw myself head first into the pleasures of the world (drugs, booze, you name it), in part to escape what at the time I considered God’s injustices (abandoned by father, overprotected and physically abused by mother, sexually abused by others). I cleaned up my act somewhat at about 30 (drugs and booze weren’t the center of my life anymore although I still did them occasionally) but was still spiritually empty. Spent 14 years in a dysfunctional relationship with someone up until about 3 years ago when I finally worked up the courage to end it. I’m originally from South America and it so happens that a couple of weeks after I had made the decision to leave I reconnected online with my very first girlfriend, someone whom I had always considered the love of my life (although we only spent less than a year together when I was 15 and she was 12). In any case, I saw this as a sign that I was making the right decision ending the prior relationship and promptly moved out. We initiated a long distance relationship mostly via Skype, and after a few months I traveled to SA to see her in person. I was down there about a week, sparks did fly like when we were younger and I promptly returned to the US planning to get married and bring her here.

Now, a church wedding was really an afterthought. I still had no spirituality (although she did) and absolutely no clue what the Sacrament of Matrimony really meant. Originally we were only going to get married civilly (which was all we needed for me to petition for an immigrant visa for her) but then decided on a church wedding at the same time just because of tradition and because we didn’t want to have to celebrate two anniversaries on different dates (now there’s a good reason for a catholic wedding!). I went back a couple of months later and got married. We had no pre-marriage counseling (except a couple of visits with a nun) since I arrived a week before the wedding. Although I was baptized catholic as a child I had never been confirmed so we lied to the church and drummed up a bogus Confirmation Certificate. To me the church wedding was just another event that had to happen before the reception. I received the Eucharist at the wedding ceremony just to keep appearances even though I hadn’t gone to confession and hadn’t even set foot on a church in many years. However, a few weeks after the wedding (at my now wife’s family’s prompting) I attended a three-day conversion retreat where a little flame lit up in my heart and I finally began my road back to the Lord.

Flash forward 2 1/2 years and now at 51 years old I try to follow Christ with all my heart in every thought and action. I’m an active member of the ecclesial movement where I did my retreat (where I even give conferences now) and I’m heavily involved in church activities every day of the week. Thanks to the extensive studying and catechesis of the last couple of years I now understand the sanctity of the Sacrament of Marriage and I can’t believe I made such a foolishly rushed decision based on sexual sparks and a childhood fantasy. After 2 1/2 years of a long distance marriage (due to some unexpected immigration complications), I can say that the initial infatuation has worn off and I’m only left with the overwhelming realization of spending the rest of my life with a woman I barely know and I’m no longer sure it’s the one the Lord had reserved for me.

I have been ruminating over this for a few months now but I won’t go forward with anything unless I know there’s some hope for success. What are my options at this point? Do you think I have grounds for an annulment based on my lack of knowledge and informed consent? Or is this a case where I have to simply deny myself, take up my cross and follow Him? Sorry for the long ramble but I’m rather overwhelmed by this prospect and would appreciate some guidance for this confused soul.

 

[MJJean]

Flash forward 2 1/2 years and now at 51 years old I try to follow Christ with all my heart in every thought and action. I’m an active member of the ecclesial movement where I did my retreat (where I even give conferences now) and I’m heavily involved in church activities every day of the week. Thanks to the extensive studying and catechesis of the last couple of years I now understand the sanctity of the Sacrament of Marriage and I can’t believe I made such a foolishly rushed decision based on sexual sparks and a childhood fantasy. After 2 1/2 years of a long distance marriage (due to some unexpected immigration complications), I can say that the initial infatuation has worn off and I’m only left with the overwhelming realization of spending the rest of my life with a woman I barely know and I’m no longer sure it’s the one the Lord had reserved for me.

I have been ruminating over this for a few months now but I won’t go forward with anything unless I know there’s some hope for success. What are my options at this point? Do you think I have grounds for an annulment based on my lack of knowledge and informed consent? Or is this a case where I have to simply deny myself, take up my cross and follow Him? Sorry for the long ramble but I’m rather overwhelmed by this prospect and would appreciate some guidance for this confused soul.

Firstly, in order to apply for annulment you must have a finalized divorce. Once you are divorced there is no guarantee that an annulment would be granted. Just wanted to make sure you understood that.

Do I think you have grounds? Probably. But what I think doesn’t matter. What matters is what the Tribunal thinks. You can contact your pastor and/or your local Tribunal and ask to speak to someone there and hopefully get a better idea of what your chances are, but even they cannot guarantee.

Is there no chance to save the marriage?

 

[Nic1099]

Hi all

I’ve been watching with great interest the discussions currently taking place in Rome as part of the Extraordinary Synod of the Family. One piece of particular relevance is the issue dealing with the streamlining of the current ‘annulment’ process. Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio states that he is in favour of certain bishops making nullity decisions in some cases and removing the requirement of an automatic appeal to the Court of Second Instance for all initial decisions.

I would be interested to hear what people think.

Regards
Nic

 

[jessica_mars]

I just started the annulment process myself. My husband and I are converting to Catholicism and are currently attending RCIA classes. I was previously married so I have to go through the annulment process. The RCIA teacher is the one who is submitting the papers for me. He just sat down and asked me a few questions and that was it. I didn’t fill out any paperwork or anything. He said that it would be easier since my ex-husband was baptized as a Catholic when he was a child. Since I was baptized as a Baptist when I was younger and we didn’t get married in a Catholic Church, he says that that right there will mean that is was never a valid marriage from the start. Not to mention I was pregnant and had just turned 17 at the time, and my mom told me that I was getting married lol. Anyways, still a bit nervous about the whole thing and hoping it doesn’t take too long.

 

[Nic1099]

I just started the annulment process myself. My husband and I are converting to Catholicism and are currently attending RCIA classes. I was previously married so I have to go through the annulment process. The RCIA teacher is the one who is submitting the papers for me. He just sat down and asked me a few questions and that was it. I didn’t fill out any paperwork or anything. He said that it would be easier since my ex-husband was baptized as a Catholic when he was a child. Since I was baptized as a Baptist when I was younger and we didn’t get married in a Catholic Church, he says that that right there will mean that is was never a valid marriage from the start. Not to mention I was pregnant and had just turned 17 at the time, and my mom told me that I was getting married lol. Anyways, still a bit nervous about the whole thing and hoping it doesn’t take too long.

Hi jessica_mars

Thanks for your reply. It would seem that a lack of form annulment may apply in your case through your ex, if he did not receive a dispensation from the bishop to marry outside the Catholic Church. I know at times it can become complicated when spouses who are of non-Catholic Christian traditions marry and if a breakdown occurs, subsequently wish to marry another person in the Catholic Church. Since your former partner is a Catholic, I would imagine things will go relatively smoothly for you.

I’ll pray that you will receive an answer soon. Here’s wishing you all the best.

 

[LaLucia]

Hi Jessica, you will get your annulment because you qualify under a canon law. In simple terms it means you felt you had to get married because you were pregnant. Plus, you were too young and you felt it was your only option.
Since this is also a support group… I want you to know that you must be willing to wait for what ever time it takes to get your annulment. There may be more papers for you to submit.

If you live in a large city and county it may take a long time. I live in Los Angeles county and there were lots fo cases ahead of me. So I had to wait a long time. There are some states where they process the annulments a lot faster. I hope and pray that you live in one of those states. LaLucia

 

[returningsinner]

Hi all

I’ve been watching with great interest the discussions currently taking place in Rome as part of the Extraordinary Synod of the Family. One piece of particular relevance is the issue dealing with the streamlining of the current ‘annulment’ process. Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio states that he is in favour of certain bishops making nullity decisions in some cases and removing the requirement of an automatic appeal to the Court of Second Instance for all initial decisions.

I would be interested to hear what people think.

Regards
Nic

I have been watching this as well. My own annulment processhas been going on for almost 2 years now, mostly because the Tribunal is so short-staffed. Some days I pray for a time machine so I can go back and yell at my younger self to run from that church of my first wedding…

 

[styrgwillidar]

Hi all

I’ve been watching with great interest the discussions currently taking place in Rome as part of the Extraordinary Synod of the Family. One piece of particular relevance is the issue dealing with the streamlining of the current ‘annulment’ process. Cardinal Francesco Coccopalmerio states that he is in favour of certain bishops making nullity decisions in some cases and removing the requirement of an automatic appeal to the Court of Second Instance for all initial decisions.

I would be interested to hear what people think.

Regards
Nic

Well, as someone who has been through the annulment and found it incredibly useful in understanding/coming to grips with the realties of my marriage- (23 year marriage in the Church between two catholics vice a lack of form kind of thing…)

I would hope the council would place greater emphasis on the utility of people reviewing the witness statements and decision of the tribunal. I found this of enormous benefit and was suprised that many people do not avail themselves of the opportunity to review these documents.

ETA: In my situation, vice a lack of form kind of thing or two converts with short marriages in the distant past, the length of time to get a decision was a blessing. It is very tempting when hurting and in the confusion of the breakup of a marrige to desire companionship-- to rush into something as kind of an emotional bandage at a time when you really aren’t yourself. I might have done something very short-sighted if a nullity decision were quickly arrived at vice taking the time to get to know myself and live singly. I’ve stayed single, even after receiving a declaration of nullity.