Annulments vs Divorce

[Magnavox]

Infallibility does not apply to annulments does it?

So I just wonder how many annulments are granted that are wrong. Surely marriage tribunals don’t get everyone of them right and they are allowing these people to openly live in adulterous marriages…sad.

 

[LilyM]

Infallibility does not apply to annulments does it?

So I just wonder how many annulments are granted that are wrong. Surely marriage tribunals don’t get everyone of them right and they are allowing these people to openly live in adulterous marriages…sad.

The fact that Tribunals make mistakes doesn’t mean they are ‘allowing’ anything, any more than a priest who mistakenly thinks your first spouse is dead (if you’ve lied to him about it and your spouse is still alive), and allows you to contract a second marriage, is ‘allowing’ adultery.

It would only be wrong if they (tribunal or priest) know the pertinent fact - ie that the marriage is in fact a valid one, or that the first spouse is in fact still alive - and then with full knowledge of that pertinent fact act as if the contrary is true (the marriage is invalid or the spouse is dead). And a tribunal or a priest would rarely if ever have reason to do something so blatantly wrong.

 

[Magnavox]

Oh, I see. So if someone wants to get remarried in the Catholic Church all they basically have to do is say “my spouse is dead.” That should slow the annulments down then, because most people who don’t have a problem divorcing and remarrying probably won’t have a problem with lying either.

 

[LilyM]

Oh, I see. So if someone wants to get remarried in the Catholic Church all they basically have to do is say “my spouse is dead.” That should slow the annulments down then, because most people who don’t have a problem divorcing and remarrying probably won’t have a problem with lying either.

Since when did I say that people should be allowed to get away with lying? Of course not - if it’s proven that they’ve been lying.

I’m just saying Tribunals and priests who try their best to ascertain the truth about a person’s marital situation can’t be accused of bad faith simply because people - being human and fallible - lie to them.

We don’t accuse judges of corruption or incompetence when people perjure themselves in court, after all, do we? We only do so when the judge knowingly allows someone to lie on the stand.

The punishment, and blame, in such cases is put where it rightly belongs - on the party who commits the perjury, not the often innocently-duped judge.

 

[Magnavox]

Since when did I say that people should be allowed to get away with lying?

You never said that. I didn’t mean to sound as if I was saying you said that either.

I’m just saying Tribunals and priests who try their best to ascertain the truth about a person’s marital situation can’t be accused of bad faith simply because people - being human and fallible - lie to them.

This is true. However, with the number of annulments that are getting processed now it does seem rather easy to achieve. The tribunals cannot be held accountable unless they sit there and are so gullible as to believe everything someone says. But I have never got an annulment and I have no clue about how the process works or whats involved. I was just merely making a point that I bet they get some of them wrong, and by doing so the person who receives the annulment believes they are receiving the Church’s blessing that they were never married to begin with when in all honesty they were.

We don’t accuse judges of corruption or incompetence when people perjure themselves in court, after all, do we? We only do so when the judge knowingly allows someone to lie on the stand.The punishment, and blame, in such cases is put where it rightly belongs - on the party who commits the perjury, not the often innocently-duped judge.

No we do not punish the judge for a person committing perjury, unless what you said happens.

 

[Monte1945]

Oh, I see. So if someone wants to get remarried in the Catholic Church all they basically have to do is say “my spouse is dead.” That should slow the annulments down then, because most people who don’t have a problem divorcing and remarrying probably won’t have a problem with lying either.

No, It isn’t that easy or simple… First of all an annulment is difficult to obtain from the Church…

And one of the main features involved in this issue is the Catholic who seeks
to see if he/she is within the correct position to receive an annulment from
one’s marriage…

Some of us Catholics take our Soul’s journey in a very serious light…

I have faith in God through my faith in His Church here. (one of them)

I trust my soul to the guiding of the church… She has been studying
and examining the scriptures and advice of the Father’s of the church
of near two thousand years now. I feel the church is more aware of
the truth of God for my soul than I am.

I would personally trust her understandings of what I should accept from her
than what I could discover in my life time.

The church’s duty is to Protect and to proclaim the truths of God…
It is the individual Catholic to know or learn what the Church teaches in
regards to any doctrine subject and to respond to that Truth…
as he/she feels is what God is asking of them at that time of their life
and through that position.

As for my comment on annulments are not easy or simple.
I requested the church to look into the possibility that I could
be granted one for my own divorce…

First I was told even if I had just cause from the church it would take
two too five years for it to be examined by the various number of review
boards that would be required to examine my petition…

I took a long look at the multi page form and from studying the thyme of it’s
attitude it was as though I was saying my wife was not a proper person
to be in our marriage… (she had ran off with another man, left me alone to
finish raising our five daughters plus without money support either)
She has went through a number of men now, some she married others she
didn’t.

My problem with seeking the annulment was that it would seem I was saying to my children that there mother was a sinner unto death and I could not do that…
I can not judge one’s soul… Even though this decision casted me into a life of
not having a woman’s love in my life… I have found much good to do.

It has been 35 years that I have been without a spouse…
I raised my five daughters and all of them have married have children. None of them has done anything to shame themselves. I took them to Mass each Sunday… Though I
had to attend more as my life seemed heavy with duty… and I needed to find
spiritual strength to live out my life through my faith… All of my girls, their spouses and children are members of a church where they live…

It has not always been easy… I have seen many couples out together and there has been
those smiles on their faces of happiness and joy as a result of having each other…

Why did I spend all this time typing all of this?

To give an example of how this topic can have an actual Catholic’s view from one who has been in that position.

I have had a personal opinion of the Church and her position on this issue every day and night for the past thirty five years… It isn’t nor has been an easy call to answer too.

I don’t remember what it feels like to have the every day love of a woman… To be hugged
and kissed from someone who cares more for me than herself… To fall asleep in the arms of that one special person… This being caused by the infidelity of my wife and not because of something I had done to bring this on to me…

Some times this kind of testimony can be helpful to some other couples who may be
thinking of getting married… it certainly should be considered carefully prior to making
that commitment.

 

[sidbrown]

No, It isn’t that easy or simple… First of all an annulment is difficult to obtain from the Church…

If it were true, that marriage annulments were difficult to obtain, you would expect there to be a large number of annulments denied, but such is not the case. Take for example, the St. Paul Minneapolis area, where according to an article in US Catholic magazine, 550 decisions are rendered a year. Of those 550 decisions, only about 15 per year are denied. This means that 97 per cent of those who apply are approved for the annulment.

 

[davidv]

If it were true, that marriage annulments were difficult to obtain, you would expect there to be a large number of annulments denied, but such is not the case. Take for example, the St. Paul Minneapolis area, where according to an article in US Catholic magazine, 550 decisions are rendered a year. Of those 550 decisions, only about 15 per year are denied. This means that 97 per cent of those who apply are approved for the annulment.

What this statistic doesn’t count are all of the annulment requests that were screened out at the parish level. So the 97% isn’t a true representation of the total picture.

 

[LilyM]

What this statistic doesn’t count are all of the annulment requests that were screened out at the parish level. So the 97% isn’t a true representation of the total picture.

Exactly. You’re thinking of a process similar to secular courts of law, where almost anyone with a half-baked sense of having been done wrong and enough money to cover the filing fee can begin a court proceedings and get in front of a judge, even if they get laughed out of court in five minutes.

It’s more like running for President - many potential candidates get unofficially weeded out long before official campaigning even starts.

 

[Monte1945]

If it were true, that marriage annulments were difficult to obtain, you would expect there to be a large number of annulments denied, but such is not the case. Take for example, the St. Paul Minneapolis area, where according to an article in US Catholic magazine, 550 decisions are rendered a year. Of those 550 decisions, only about 15 per year are denied. This means that 97 per cent of those who apply are approved for the annulment.

You must forgive me, as I am not a good writer…

The only real point I had to give was that no matter what the church has as rules…
in regards to one having access to an annulment… The bottom line is that the
person who is considering the annulment can have their own convictions about
it…

As in many incidents which one can and does judge the church…I think that the
main focus here is not only the position of the church but what the person who is
faced with this decision… we can lean on the church but in the end we will be
responsible for what we do. I was given an option to have the annulment but it was my decision to not get it as I and only I knew what was in my heart… It was not the Church’s decision it was mine…

111

 

[brb3]

Dear Kaste,

The Church first started recognizing annulments since the fourth century. The annulments were normally recognized in cases of marriage (1) between kin, or next of kin, (2) between a believer and a non-believer, (3) that was forced, (4) by a priest after ordination, (5) between two people where one spouse was previously deserted and the one who deserted returns, (6) between two people where the previous spouse of one was thought to be dead (by virtue of being in the military or otherwise), but then is discovered to still be alive. These marriages were adjudged to be invalid or unlawful, and were not recognized by the Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

Marduk …

What’s your source on this … which ECF discusses or which Council addressed it ?

Very interesting, informative thread … A true CAF classic !!