Annulments- was there never truly a marriage?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ronnok20
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Ahem! It was the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit who compiled the Bible. 😉

The Primacy has always been there. See St Clement’s letters and also St Linus and St Sixtus whose name I am so unworthy to use.

Sixtus I was pope from 114 to 124, All authorities agree that he reigned about ten years. He was a Roman by birth

He passed the following three ordinances: (1) that none but sacred ministers are allowed to touch the sacred vessels; (2) that bishops who have been summoned to the Holy See shall, upon their return, not be received by their diocese except on presenting Apostolic letters; (3) that after the Preface in the Mass the priest shall recite the Sanctus with the people. 🙂

Source: New Advent Catholic Encylopedia
This is completely wrong. The Catholic church wasn’t even in existence in the 4th century. The Catholic church did not create the bible and the reformers did not distort it. These were all things that I was repeatedly told when I was Catholic but I never believed them as so many Catholics themselves now don’t believe them. The apocrypha was the 7 books deemed non-canonical by the reformers because they contained several chronological errors among other errors that the other books of the new testament didn’t have. This among many other things the Catholic church refused to acknowledge and this is why the Reformation was the divine intervention of the Holy Spirit, but this is a whole different thread so I will stop there.
 
This is completely wrong. The Catholic church wasn’t even in existence in the 4th century. The Catholic church did not create the bible and the reformers did not distort it. These were all things that I was repeatedly told when I was Catholic but I never believed them as so many Catholics themselves now don’t believe them. The apocrypha was the 7 books deemed non-canonical by the reformers because they contained several chronological errors among other errors that the other books of the new testament didn’t have. This among many other things the Catholic church refused to acknowledge and this is why the Reformation was the divine intervention of the Holy Spirit, but this is a whole different thread so I will stop there.
Actually the Catholic Church did exist the day Jesus send the Holy Spirit upon the Church.

In fact the Word Catholic Church was first term by St. Ignatius of Antioch in 107-110 AD he said the following:
St. Ignatious:
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
Second the Deutrocanonical Books were used by the Early Christians. The Council of Hippo in 392 AD made a list of Canon of Scripture that included the Deutrocanonical Books, and 396 AD in the Council of Carthage the list was canonized again. In 1430 there was an Ecumenical Council with representatives from Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church which recognized the Canonized Scripture that included all 73 Books of the Bible.

It was not intil the Reformers put those Deutrocanonical Books in the Appendix of their Bible and put them in the lesser status and inspired. About 50 yrs after Martin Luther’s death, Protestant Leaders slow remove the 7 Deutrocanonical Books of the Bible.

Hence today, the Protestant are the only Group of Christians who has 66 Books in their Bible versus the 73 Books of the Catholic Church. The Orthodox has 74 Books in their Bible…
 
The word “catholic” is being totally taken out of context. It is used an adjective to describe the Christian church as universal. The RC has attempted to turn the word to be exclusive to them only. This is a complete mistake to believe that this word described individualism amongst other Christians through history.
 
The word “catholic” is being totally taken out of context. It is used an adjective to describe the Christian church as universal. The RC has attempted to turn the word to be exclusive to them only. This is a complete mistake to believe that this word described individualism amongst other Christians through history.
Correct. The Christian Church is catholic. It IS universal. You obviously know that too. Catholic and Christian were synonyms until the Orthodox split around 1000. Then the split around 1512 further divided Christianity. When you use the term “RC” you are again showing that you do not understand historical Christianity. All Roman Catholics (or more accurately named Latin Catholics,) are Catholics. However, not all Catholics are Roman Catholics. Our Byzantine brethren and the other rites of the Catholic Church are not just some branches to be ignored. They are fully Catholic.

As I implored you before, please study your history. Seek to understand how these changes came about in the Protestant churches. Show me your church’s doctrine back through the ages. Read the writings from the first century on marriage and the Eucharist. Catholics have a deeper understanding of both now, but neither are different understandings. Please show the writings from the 4th century that condoned divorce. If it was condoned it would have been written down.

This very odd translation of Scripture that says “…except for marital unfaithfulness…” doesn’t hold up. To believe that, one must believe that Jesus specifically addressed marriage and divorce then gave this HUGE exception clause. It would say that His words were, “He who divorces and marries another (except in cases of adultery) commits adultery.” As I said before even if that were the case the word for adultery would be used in both places. It isn’t. Is there another form of marital unfaithfulness that someone is hiding from the rest of the world besides adultery?

And even if that were the case wouldn’t Jesus be setting up one gigantic precedent? He would be saying, “If you’re in a bad marriage, just wait it out until your partner is unfaithful. Then you will be free to marry again.” And further he would be saying that to rid yourself of a marriage you don’t like, then commit adultery and you will be free. After all the words in some Protestant Bibles are, “except for marital unfaithfulness.” That phrase does not address on whose part. And further wouldn’t that be discouraging those couples who have suffered marital infidelity from reconciling? It would be, “Well you cheated, your spouse can now marry another.”

I ask these questions not to be a smart-aleck, but because I have watched these issues being addressed this way by Protestant pastors. And I have seen the damage it causes. Jesus did not come to further muddy the issue on marriage. He came to clarify an already muddied issue. Jesus used two different words. One means that the marriage is unlawful and that by staying married the couple is committing a form of incest. The other is most certainly the word for adultery, and says that any RE-marriage after divorce is adultery. Any other interpretation makes the surrounding context have no reasonable explanation.
 
I cannot understand the belief of no divorces really existing when it was clear in scripture that divorce was permissable for sexual immorality. Annulments are really a distortion of reality as well. If a marriage never existed, why is that so? Was the sacrement defective?
Actually Catholics allow this in the event of adultry or some type of mental disorder… So they do follow this verse to a T
 
This is completely centered upon your belief in the authority of the RC which I do not believe in. You are speaking of the apocrypha as the 7 missing books. Those books were rightfully omitted from sacred scripture for the several chronological errors in which they contained. There are many books including hundreds of gospels that are not included in sacred scripture. It is not the RC who holds authority over the bible. The original canonical decisions regarding scripture were made in the 4th century which was way before the primacy of Rome.
No, lol… they were omited because things like macabees talked about praying for the dead and purgatory… which Luther didn’t like… They were taken out because luther didn’t want puragtory and praying for the dead in “His” bible…

The oldest known bible that exists is the codex vaticanus…

The septuagint LXX, the bible the apostles used also has the apocrypha in it…

Also if Macabees is omited, why do Jews celebrate hannukah?

Take a look at it… Notice an apocrypha? 🙂

Way before the primacy… again, you need to read history… If you read St. Iranues Against Heresies, which were written in the 1st century, you will see that there already is a primacy in Rome…200 years before constantine even!

St. Ireaneus Against heresies 2:2:3 or 3:3:2 I believe it is, the second one I think … read it…
 
Originally Posted by ronnok20
You are speaking of the apocrypha as the 7 missing books…
Up until the 1880’s every Protestant Bible (not just Catholic Bibles) had 80 books, not 66! The inter-testamental books written hundreds of years before Christ called “The Apocrypha” were part of virtually every printing of the Tyndale-Matthews Bible, the Great Bible, the Bishops Bible, the Protestant Geneva Bible, and the King James Bible until their removal in the 1880’s! The original 1611 King James contained the Apocrypha, and King James threatened anyone who dared to print the Bible without the Apocrypha with heavy fines and a year in jail. Only for the last 120 years has the Protestant Church rejected these books, and removed them from their Bibles.
s8int.com/bibletimeline.html

The History of the Textus Receptus

Erasmus’s third edition of 1522 contained one truly unfortunate innovation: The “Three Heavenly Witnesses” in 1 John 5:7-8. These were derived from the recently-written Codex 61, and (as the famous story goes) included by Erasmus “for the sake of his oath.” Sadly, they have been found in almost every TR edition since. Erasmus, having little time to prepare his edition, could only examine manuscripts which came to hand. His haste was so great, in fact, that he did not even write new copies for the printer; rather, he took existing manuscripts, corrected them, and submitted those to the printer. (Erasmus’s corrections are still visible in the manuscript 2.)

Even those who favour the Byzantine text cannot be overly impressed with Erasmus’s choice of manuscripts; they are all rather late Not only is 1r an Andreas manuscript rather than purely Byzantine, but it is written in such a way that Erasmus could not always tell text from commentary and based his reading on the Vulgate. Also, 1r is defective for the last six verses of the Apocalypse. To fill out the text, Erasmus made his own Greek translation from the Latin. He admitted to what he had done, but the result was a Greek text containing readings not found in any Greek manuscript – but which were faithfully retained through centuries of editions of the Textus Receptus. This included even certain readings which were not even correct Greek (Scrivener offers as an example Rev. 17:4 AKAQARTHTOS).

Thus it will be conceded by all reputable scholars – even those who favour the Byzantine text – that the Textus Receptus, in all its various forms, has no textual authority whatsoever. Were it not for the fact that it has been in use for so long as a basis for collations, it could be mercifully forgotten. What a tragedy, then, that it was the Bible of Protestant Christendom for close to four centuries!

skypoint.com/~waltzmn/TR.html
bibletexts.com/kjv-tr.htm

In the second century Bc, Jewish scholars in Alexandria, Egypt, had translated the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek. Tradition had it that this translation was the work of 70 (or 72) scholars, and accordingly the result was known as the Septuagint (often written as LXX). The LXX contains six or more books (there is some leeway here) not found in the standard Hebrew text, known as the Masoretic Text (or Mt), and sometimes reads differently from the Mt in particular verses. The New Testament writers, except for Matthew, when they are quoting the Old Testament, usually quote from the LXX. The differences in readings between the Mt and the LXX were formerly explained by assuming that the LXX translators were sometimes not very good translators. However, very ancient Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible, recently found at Qumran and elsewhere, often agree with the LXX against the Mt. Accordingly, it is now generally supposed that the LXX is a fairly accurate translation of Hebrew manuscripts available at the time, and that sometimes the manuscripts that the LXX translators worked from differed from the manuscripts that became the basis for the standardised Hebrew text that we know today.

justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/256.html

Jesus and Paul quote from the Septuagint
scripturecatholic.com/septuagint.html
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DEUTEROS.HTM
The early church was founded by Hellenistic Jews; naturally, they used the Septuagint. There are passages in the gospels and epistles where Jesus and Paul quote from the Septuagint: 300 of 350 quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament are from the Septuagint

Throughout the 1600’s, as the Puritans and the Pilgrims fled the religious persecution of England to cross the Atlantic and start a new free nation in America, they took with them their precious Geneva Bible, and rejected the King’s Bible. America was founded upon the Geneva Bible, not the King James Bible.
greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/index.html
 
Actually Catholics allow this in the event of adultry or some type of mental disorder… So they do follow this verse to a T
Actually it is still considered a separation in the Church even if a civil divorce takes place. Divorce can be confessed and forgiven and in some cases, like danger to a spouse or children, it is not a sin at all and might be the most prudent form of action.

But the important point to note for the OP is that it is remarriage that is the real sin spoken of by Jesus. He is saying that if two were really married, then nothing on earth can separate that. What the Church teaches based on that is that not everyone who attempts marriage is actually married (joined by God.) Therefore the “possible marriage” is investigated to discover if they were in fact joined by God. If so, they are married and cannot marry another. If not, then they were only joined by man and so were never married in the first place. They can marry someone else because they aren’t already married.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top