C
- Status
S
stanley123
Guest
Really? When the annulment rate skyrockets from 9 per year to 61,416 per year, this does not indicate that something has gone wrong?
At the rate of 50,000 annulments per year, this menas that in a twenty year period, in one country alone, the USA, there have been one million families officially declared broken by the RCC!!!
C
Catholic2003
Guest
Something has indeed gone wrong, but it has gone wrong in the catechesis about the sacrament of marriage, not in the annulment process itself.
I have conclusively demonstrated that skyrocketing from 9 to 17,984 (a multiplicative factor of approximately 2000) cannot be attributed to any fault of the annulment process. So if a factor of 2000 must be due to poor catechesis, or other causes outside the annulment process, is it really that unreasonable to assume that those causes could actually be responsible for the full multiplicative factor of approximately 6800?
T
tossolul
Guest
You are in my prayers!
P
puzzleannie
Guest
there is no such thing as an annulment. What some persons obtain, after due investigation of the circumstances of their marriage by the diocesan tribunal (including the (name removed by moderator)ut of an official called the “defender of the bond”) is a decree of nullity. This is a statement that there was in fact never a valid marriage because the necessary conditions for a valid marriage were not present at the time the marriage was contracted. What happens to the vows? They were not valid because one our both parties were not able, for whatever reason, to make valid vows. What happens to the children? They are legitimate, their status does not change. What happens to the sacrament? There was no valid sacrament because the requirements for a valid sacrament were not met.
the decree of nullity has nothing whatever to do with establishing “fault” and the process in no way resembles a civil court divorce proceeding. It does not deal with circumstances and events arising after the marriage (although they may be considered if they relate to circumstances existing before the marriage). There is not guilty and innocent party, there are only facts, determined by reasonable investigative process and judgement, giving all parties the chance to give their testimony.
T
tossolul
Guest
I have 2 questions…
Does it seem like the decree of nullity is happening quite a bit more frequently and in some cases perhaps being abused?
When does it really become allright to break a promise to God?
I realize every case is individual and as Liberian pointed out so nicely there are two very different ways of looking at this. What is bothering me is how many people look for reasons to seperate, instead of looking for reasons to stay together, and keep the promise they made to God. God calls us to sacrifice. I realize there are some cases where it isn’t possible to stay married any longer, but at the same time feel the whole idea of marraige as the sacrament is being pushed aside in many other cases for what is easiest or most convenient.
G
geojack
Guest
How are the children legitimate if the marriage is not valid?
J
JimG
Guest
The children are considered legitimate, I believe, because they are still the product of a true natural marriage as well as a valid *civil * marriage, though not a sacramental marriage valid in the eyes of the Church.
S
stanley123
Guest
In my personal opinion, when you go from 9 annulments per year to 61,000 per year, this would be a clear indication that something is seriously wrong. Once again, my personal opinion is that theoretically, the teaching of the Church on the indissolubility of marriage has not changed - theoretically. however, what can we conclude about the practical application of this teaching or the operational meaning of it? Some people have said that Catholic theologians have figured out a way of getting around the teaching of the Church on the indissolbility of marriage by introducing the concept of easy to obtain annulments. For example, according to:
divorcehelp.net/annulment.html
“**A spouse’s extramarital affair(s), …, etc. serve to demonstrate that the spouse exhibits an antisocial personality which would prevent him/her from fully understanding or carrying out the obligations of a lifelong relationship and therefore evidence that the spouse lacked the due competence required to form a sacramental marriage” **
"Many people believe that virtually any failed marriage can be annulled on the basis of incapacity and immaturity."
For the second question, I would say that this would be an excellent question, and has been brought up by people who see something seriously wrong with the annulment process as it operates in the USA today.
T
tossolul
Guest
Stanley123- Thank you, that was a very ‘enlightening’ article.I didn’t know any of the specifics of the church on this issue. Some pretty big changes happened in 1970.
I’m definately no one to say something shoudn’t be the way it is, but for me personally…there will never be a reason that I will find that will justify me breaking the promise I made to God to stay together till death do us part, through good times and bad, as long as we both shall live. That pretty much covers any loop hole as far as I can see ( at least in my life).
IMO… It is a small sacrifice to offer one’s own life and happiness in order to insure your childrens. God will see what you have done for Him, and will repay you.
I mostly only want to share my thoughts about this for people who were like me, considering getting divorced. To try to show them another side to it-like I was shown…Before it’s too late. I am not trying to judge or criticize anyone who has gotten a divorce.
I’m definately no one to say something shoudn’t be the way it is, but for me personally…there will never be a reason that I will find that will justify me breaking the promise I made to God to stay together till death do us part, through good times and bad, as long as we both shall live. That pretty much covers any loop hole as far as I can see ( at least in my life).
IMO… It is a small sacrifice to offer one’s own life and happiness in order to insure your childrens. God will see what you have done for Him, and will repay you.
I mostly only want to share my thoughts about this for people who were like me, considering getting divorced. To try to show them another side to it-like I was shown…Before it’s too late. I am not trying to judge or criticize anyone who has gotten a divorce.
S
stanley123
Guest
You might want to read the article:
Judging invalidity the American way
By Sheryl Temaat
Homiletic and Pastoral Review. January 2005
" But above all what is so difficult about understanding words like, “For better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health until death do us part”?
These words are simple enough that fourteen-year-olds can understand them. "
J
JimG
Guest
Indeed, the words are straightforward and quite easy to understand.
But for people who have always been told that it’s all about feelings, they may be difficult to mean.
S
stanley123
Guest
So something has gone wrong, but only in the RCC, and not in any other Church or any other religious group on this issue of annulments? Why does it hit so hard in the RCC, but other religous groups, or Churches are not hit this hard? Is it because the RCC has dropped the Traditional Latim Mass, or because it has changed its rule on annulments, making them a lot easier to get than before?
C
Catholic2003
Guest
It is because other denominations allow divorce and remarriage without an annulment.
The divorce statistics, which indicate a horrific problem regardless of whether or not an annulment is granted, have jumped across all of society.
A
Aesq
Guest
I have to agree with another poster. This is only a problem in the RCC because other demoninations do not require a nullity before remarriage, so it is not an issue for them.
One major thing you are all not seeing is that before 1940 or so it was very difficult to get a civil divorce, you had to show fault on the other party and you had to have “clean hands” (no fault) as these were suits in equity and there was no such thing as a no fault divorce. Less civil divorce less petitions for nullity. Before we conclude that there is a problem with the nullity process other factors must be taken into account.
S
stanley123
Guest
But let’s compare the number of divorces in the USA with the number of RC annulments in the USA.
Divorces in the USA
1930: 195, 961
1979: 1,179,000
1998: 1,135,000
Annulments given out by the Catholic Church:
1930: 9
1989: 61, 416.
The divorces in the USA have increased by a factor of about 6.
The annulments in the RCC have increased over the same period by a factor of 6824, or more than one thousand times as much as the divorces in the USA at large.
Why has the number of annulments in
the RCC gone up by more than one thousand times more than the number of
divorces in the surrounding culture?
Isn’t it becasue the Vatican II changes from the TLM and the easing up on the groundrules for annulments has hit the RCC in the USA, but not the USA at large?
A
Aesq
Guest
Why would you assume that? Have you even considered that maybe there are more people who are divorced and remarried converting than there were in 1930? What connection can show to what you seem to be claiming. What was the rate of nullities after 1930 but before Vatican II. You are making some huge logical leaps. What easing of the groundrules are you speaking of?
I
iserve
Guest
“]I figure that any pre-marriage preparation program, such as Engaged Encounter, will know that it is effective if before the weekend is over, half of those attending decide NOT to go through with the marriage. Those would be the ones who would have been headed for divorce.”
It is interesting that you should bring this up. I am the wedding coordinator at our parish, and my pastor was a former tribunal head. Every year, we have one or two “drops”. It has often crossed my mind that he has had something to do with this, since our parish is very conservative with all the sacraments, in the hope that people who are recieving them are sure they want them. I have no idea what he discusses with them, but know of few other parishes where weddings are cancelled regularly.
As someone who married under less than perfect circumstance, and divorced after 15 years, I can only say that better catechesis may have helped me in my case. At the time of my marriage, my moral questions were dismissed, and no one was willing to share with me what I was doing wrong. I have an annullment, but have never married in the 16 years since my divorce. To be honest, I can see both sides, but believe that no one should be sentanced to live with certain situations. I never married, nor even dated, because my children were so hurt by it all. I felt it was my duty to be a parent first, as the time for dating was prior to their arrival. It has not been an easy life, and I am not sure there are all that many folks out there who could endure the poverty, singlemindedness, and the long, lonesome journey that it takes to raise children alone, or to live the rest of one’s life alone.
In our religious ed program, also, we have worked marriage into all our classes with older kids, in the hope that they will be better informed as they go forward into this, very adult, hopefully permanent situation.
It is interesting that you should bring this up. I am the wedding coordinator at our parish, and my pastor was a former tribunal head. Every year, we have one or two “drops”. It has often crossed my mind that he has had something to do with this, since our parish is very conservative with all the sacraments, in the hope that people who are recieving them are sure they want them. I have no idea what he discusses with them, but know of few other parishes where weddings are cancelled regularly.
As someone who married under less than perfect circumstance, and divorced after 15 years, I can only say that better catechesis may have helped me in my case. At the time of my marriage, my moral questions were dismissed, and no one was willing to share with me what I was doing wrong. I have an annullment, but have never married in the 16 years since my divorce. To be honest, I can see both sides, but believe that no one should be sentanced to live with certain situations. I never married, nor even dated, because my children were so hurt by it all. I felt it was my duty to be a parent first, as the time for dating was prior to their arrival. It has not been an easy life, and I am not sure there are all that many folks out there who could endure the poverty, singlemindedness, and the long, lonesome journey that it takes to raise children alone, or to live the rest of one’s life alone.
In our religious ed program, also, we have worked marriage into all our classes with older kids, in the hope that they will be better informed as they go forward into this, very adult, hopefully permanent situation.
S
stanley123
Guest
Please see post #36.
A
Aesq
Guest
For what?
Your numbers skip from 1930 to 1979 and 1989. What about the other 50 years in between and what about 1930 up to Vatican II. When is it you think Vatican II took place? It was 1962-1965 I believe. If you are going to start making the logical leaps you are making I think you really need to look at a great many more factors and numbers.
- Status